Replaced 07 Sig TRC ATS - Alladin will NOT monitor voltage and current - SOLUTIONS?

[Johnny Mo]

I replaced the original transfer switch TRC Model 40250 with Southwire Model 40100 along with a hard wired Power Watchdog PWD50-EPO.

I can now monitor voltage and amps on my phone when using shore power, but not while using generator power. Since the Aladdin power monitoring was thru the old transfer switch I lost that with the new transfer (only) switch.

Would appreciate suggestions on how I can monitor voltage and amps while on generator power.

[windsorbill06]

check out Victron's 712 BMV.   You can see information on it's display and  it's bluetooth capable.  It can also monitor battery temperature as well as engine start batteries. 

 https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Energy-MONITOR-VTBMV-S-BMV-712-Battery/dp/B075RTSTKS?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A2VHGGOHXF24LJ&th=1

I have it paired up with Victron's inverter, cerbo, display monitor,  DC/DC charger and a MPPT solar controller.   

Edited April 26, 2023 by windsorbill06

[Johnny Mo]

Bill h, thanks for your input, good to know. I want to monitor ac power.

[Ivan K]

I suppose you are talking about monitoring the AC supply past the ATS. Our coach has sensing coils and voltage monitor wires on input of main AC breakers fed directly from ATS, regardless where the power comes from and before it splits between the inverter/charger and AC units and such. I don't have a remote reading capability at that point, just not very accurate factory gauges, but I am also not concerned about overloading the 12.5 genny. I bet there would be a BT unit to replace them but I have not pursuit that, yet. I will follow your adventure though. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Ivan K

[windsorbill06]

Yea,  your right.  What was I thinking.    The 712 BMV only does the DC side.  My other Victron components do the AC side.  

Edited April 26, 2023 by windsorbill06

[waterskier_1]

26 minutes ago, windsorbill06 said:

Yea,  your right.  What was I thinking.    The 712 BMV only does the DC side.  My other Victron components do the AC side.  

I think those Victron components, if like mine, only monitor the AC that goes through the Inverter.  That is unless you rewired the whole coach such that all AC goes through the inverter (including roof A/Cs, Aquahot heaters, etc.).

  -Rick N 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Johnny Mo said:

I replaced the original transfer switch TRC Model 40250 with Southwire Model 40100 along with a hard wired Power Watchdog PWD50-EPO.

I can now monitor voltage and amps on my phone when using shore power, but not while using generator power. Since the Aladdin power monitoring was thru the old transfer switch I lost that with the new transfer (only) switch.

Would appreciate suggestions on how I can monitor voltage and amps while on generator power.

EDITED FOR MORE INFO....

@Johnny Mo Please re read this....it has more details....

In a word.  You CANNOT.  The TRC switch was specifically selected for the Alladin system.  So, it measured, via current taps on the OUTGOING legs of the ATS, the voltage & amperage.  That is what went to the 50 Amp Main Panel.  That is gone now...as the current taps were inside the switch. They interfaced via a phone cable (which you do not have connected) to the Alladin head.  GAME OVER.  The really BAD NEWS....the NEW TRC replacements do NOT have the older Alladin interface...so a NEW TRC will not work with the Alladin.  I THOUGHT this was the case, based on what I know....and @Frank McElroy , as usual was a wealth of information.  on't know exactly how they were connected...but it appears that you have lost that...  He was curious as to WHY you had to replace it as they are pretty bullet proof.  One of our departed members, Bill Groves, would replace the MOV (the part that opens up when it takes a hit).  They are Metal Oxide Varistors and are commonly available.  You check them and if they have an OPEN circuit, you pull off the board and replace them with new.  SIMPLE...  If you saved the switch, you might be able to get it repaired....many here do this..

OK....back to your issue....or the explanation....if you followed the above....What you have is an UPSTREAM or Shore unit.  You listed the info for the portable (plug in model).  Even if you had purchased the PWD50-EPO - H (Hardwired), it is SUPPOSED to monitor the incoming power.  The user's guide uses the work "PARK" more times than a politician says.  I WILL....  in a campaign speech.  Pardon that NON Political pun. 

The Hughes is a knockoff or a competitor of the Progressive Industries.  NONE of the Hard Wired or Plug IN Surge Suppressors are supposed to be DOWNSTREAM of the ATS.  They were designed for UPSTREAM to protect the ATS as well.  So, that is what it is.

Now, by not replacing the TRC with a comparable model, you may have an issue or not........but that MIGHT be simple to at least test once and a while.  First, you need to know that your Genny is pretty robust and will deliver good power.  BUT.... You have the larger 10KW (maybe 12...doesn't matter). unit.  That unit MUST be exercised about once or twice a year....otherwise you get issues....which I THINK you can or were able, per reading and talking with other folks, on the Alladin to monitor or see. The Brushes get crappy.  When you load it up with 3 AC's and such and get a good load on it, the brushes will self clean....saving you a costly repair.  So, make a point of loading it heavy and running for an hour or so....many folks have experienced this.

NOW, the problem is that you do HAVE 240 VAC (lines 1 and 2) coming in from your Genny.  The Onan Power is super clean....assuming that you do the PM and run it to clean the brushes.  Therefore, you just can't purchase a cheap plug in voltmeter from Amazon and plug it in.  Look on page 185 of your manual. The SUBPANEL figure is the one you want to see...but you may have the other.  I pulled your prints for what I wanted, but it was NOT there....so this will be YOUR TEST...and how you can monitor...

I THINK that the Line 2 Power (from the Genny or Shore....doesn't matter) which is #3 CB controls the blank #1 and #2 & #4.  Simply TURN IT OFF.  Then go to the outlets that are marked on the panel.  IF no power....turn it back on.  Then turn off #6.  That should kill #5, #7 & #8.  OK...assuming that works.  Then here is a quick and inexpensive way to monitor.

Order a cheap digital plug in 120 VAC meter from Amazon.  There are scads of them....pick one with the best reviews or rating.  NOW...you will need, when on Genny to plug it in to one of the circuits from L2 (Breaker #3) and Line 1 (Breaker #5). That is the easy way to test periodically. 

HOWEVER, that does NOT take the place of the Alladin....as it monitored OK....the OTHER WAY....and that is probably the easiest.....

https://www.amazon.com/80-260V-CRS-022B-Display-Voltmeter-Transformer/dp/B0919LV66F/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=killawatt+220v&qid=1682525857&sr=8-5

In your main panel, if you pull the cover....there is are TWO #6 (Red and Black). You might have to remove them as I can't tell if the above kit has "FIXED" current taps or if you can squeeze them open like a Clamp on Ammeter.  You MIGHT find similar kits....but if you want WIRELESS....then that is going to be several hundred dollars.

SO...you put a current tap on each leg or each piece of #6 and mount the meters.  You can easily let the wires (with a little tape to prevent abrading) under the cover and mount them somewhere.

Those are NO OTHER OPTIONS....as TRC and Alladin do NOT have a retro KIT.  I THINK that if you had purchased the NEW TRC, that there is a remote "head" or display that you can mount somewhere....that is from the conversation with Frank and I have not researched that.....

That's it...  You lost your Aladdin when you went to the Southwire ATS and the Power Dog was never set up nor should it have been, to monitor the Genny.

Let us know what you do....if anything....as we all learn.

 

 

[Johnny Mo]

Tom,

Thanks ! That is what I was thinking of doing, just din't know where/how to go. I'll install the Display-Voltmeter-Transformer (2, for red and black) at the Panel.

And yes I exersize the Genny with a full load (3 AC's running for a couple hours monthly)

I'll let you know how it goes.

[Tom Cherry]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Mo said:

Tom,

Thanks ! That is what I was thinking of doing, just din't know where/how to go. I'll install the Display-Voltmeter-Transformer (2, for red and black) at the Panel.

And yes I exersize the Genny with a full load (3 AC's running for a couple hours monthly)

I'll let you know how it goes.

Good deal.  Please go back and read the post.  I edited it after talking to Frank....it has a little more, if you are interested info and also an explanation of what was probably wrong with your old switch....

Let us know how it works out.  Pictures are great.  This is NOT usually a major issue...but the MOV's in the TRC do die eventually, but they CAN be replaced....so hope you did not trash the old switch....

[Johnny Mo]

Tom,

I replaced the original TRC ATS with the understanding that it is not recommended/compatible with an upstream PWD50-EPO-H (or any other).

 

[windsorbill06]

1 hour ago, waterskier_1 said:

I think those Victron components, if like mine, only monitor the AC that goes through the Inverter.  That is unless you rewired the whole coach such that all AC goes through the inverter (including roof A/Cs, Aquahot heaters, etc.).

  -Rick N 

Rick,

You're correct.  You have to rewire pretty much everything.  Not easy, quick or cheap.  I did mine last year.

[Tom Cherry]

22 minutes ago, Johnny Mo said:

Tom,

I replaced the original TRC ATS with the understanding that it is not recommended/compatible with an upstream PWD50-EPO-H (or any other).

 

That is correct.  But I know a LOT of knowledgeable Dynasty and above that are still using them.  I don't know exactly HOW or WHERE you get error codes or if they came in on the Alladin.  Just curious.  I just reread your post and you said it was Hard Wired....but I googled the PN you posted and it did not have the "-H" on the end....so that is why I thought you had the plug in...

NOW...it makes sense.  You wanted a "better" surge protector and went with a simple ATS and can monitor the Park (CG) power from the brochure, but you lost the interface ability to the Alladin....which does MONITOR power on the load side.  

SO, the options still stand.  Install current taps on the incoming 50 Amp lines at the main panel.  Either hardwired or ones that are wireless.  Then you are measuring or double checking the output or the pass through of the PWD50-EPO-H as well....and then when you switch to Genny, you have the same ability....but not in the Alladin.

Thanks for the rationale. 

[waterskier_1]

2 hours ago, windsorbill06 said:

Rick,

You're correct.  You have to rewire pretty much everything.  Not easy, quick or cheap.  I did mine last year.

Curious what Victron Inverter/Charger you went with that can handle 12.5 KW.

[windsorbill06]

3 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Curious what Victron Inverter/Charger you went with that can handle 12.5 KW.

Go ahead and PM me, if you like.    Not fair to OP to hijack this thread.

[Ivan K]

I never had Aladdin so this is my current solution for monitoring the AC power, regardless whether from shore or generator. I really just installed it because I had time on my hands while my wife is deciding what to pack for a trip. It gets readings from main dual breaker connections. Will see how it holds up and if it makes sense when on the road soon, hopefully. As I was installing it, I realized how inaccurate the Progressive EMS current reading is, compared to my clamp meter. I know the voltage readings can be calibrated and I have done it earlier in the EMS but not sure about current reading, yet, if even possible.

[Johnny Mo]

2 hours ago, Ivan K said:

I never had Aladdin so this is my current solution for monitoring the AC power, regardless whether from shore or generator. I really just installed it because I had time on my hands while my wife is deciding what to pack for a trip. It gets readings from main dual breaker connections. Will see how it holds up and if it makes sense when on the road soon, hopefully. As I was installing it, I realized how inaccurate the Progressive EMS current reading is, compared to my clamp meter. I know the voltage readings can be calibrated and I have done it earlier in the EMS but not sure about current reading, yet, if even possible.

Ivan, I would like to do the same install as what you did. Can you share what meters you used and how they are wired.

Thanks in advance...

[Dr4Film]

The correct TRC Surge Guard Transfer Switch that does talk with the Alladin System is the 40450RVC3 model.

The previous owner of my Dynasty had chintzed out when the original TRC Surge Guard Transfer Switch model 40250 crapped out. He replaced it with a 41260 that doesn't talk to the Alladin System.

I decided to leave the 41260 in place and install the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C in front of the transfer switch that has FULL power protection like the 40450RVC3 transfer switch.

The Intellitec EMS system that I plan to install with its display will monitor the generator amp usage when in use.

[Ivan K]

10 hours ago, Johnny Mo said:

Ivan, I would like to do the same install as what you did. Can you share what meters you used and how they are wired.

Thanks in advance...

John, I used the following meters,  they looked like a close fit to my existing openings but not quite. Few millimeters off. I reused existing wiring for the old analog gauges and only replaced the sensing coils that go over the L1, L2 leads in breaker box. Easy but time will tell if it was a good choice. One of the coils reads higher than it should so I am getting a replacement today,  will see. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YC1XHKQ?ref=ppx_pt2_tab_b_prod_image&th=1

 

[Johnny Mo]

Thanks Tom and Ivan, I installed 2 meters at the breaker box.

[Tom Cherry]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Mo said:

Thanks Tom and Ivan, I installed 2 meters at the breaker box.

GREAT.  Looks good.  Hope you enjoy it and it does the job.

BTW....please excuse the retired engineer with a penchant for all things with wires...LOL...

Would be interesting, as I assume you have, to report on the differences (within meter accuracy) of the PowerDog (your wireless readings) and the meters above...since they are monitoring the same power source....

Thanks for the update

[Johnny Mo]

The meter on the right is Line 1

They are close...

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Johnny Mo said:

The meter on the right is Line 1

They are close...

Good….unless one studies the specs and such, “CLOSE” counts for meters as well as in hand grenades and horseshoes….LOL!