NEW >> Kongsberg CCM Chassis Multiplex and Related Repair Issues

[powerpro2000]

MODERATOR EDIT….ALL REPAIR POSTS, recent ones, from the original Signature Resroration Topic…HAVE BEEN MOVED!  Read the 7/30/23 POST for explanation of why the Signature  Restoration has been “split” and this NEW Topic is for Repairs and Issues…..specific to the Kongsberg CCM chassis.

END of Edit
 

Follow-up on my Signature Kongsburg failure. Today I received a new rear CCM (B-16623982) from the REV Parts Warehouse in Decatur IN. I had heard they no longer had any stock of these CCM's available but that appears not to be the case. It also seems as though they may still have additional stock available. It wasn't cheap but an order of magnitude less that M&M wanted. I installed the new one and Voila, now have wipers, brake lights, turn signals and flashers. I haven't had an opportunity to test all the CCM functions but looks good so far. Brett told me that M&M had tested the CCM and declared it functional but that was not the case. That makes two out of the three issues solved (mostly). Now on to the front CCM.

[Mike Barrett]

Little update.  The left turn signal indicator turned on, not in the mirror and it wants to jump the camera to the left mirror camera.  Replaced the 3157 bulbs with 'compatible'  LED, now both dash indicators are on, not in the mirrors and their is a small bit of light from the LED bulbs - known from the ancient incandescents. Suspect original issue.  The bulbs can be inserted either way, 1 way as the faint glow the other does not but the dash indicators are one full time.

Also the fog lights dont illuminate

Will swap the bulbs tomorrow.

All smart wheel functions work so this is much informational as an ask for guidance.

[DavidL]

43 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

Some more minor updates on my chase - I just replaced most of the brake/turn signals with LED and sure enough all 4 turn signals stay dimly lit with the LED.  and the mirror signal is dimly lit.

Any ideas?  The dash turn signals are lit, and when I turn on a turn signal it works fine.  Also the dash message board says the turn signal is on.

Ideas?

Also, for $2,700, I might want to have a set of spare CCMs......

Because LEDs take so little current to work, some lighting controllers (especially those that support dimming) "bleed" a little current that the LED will then turn on.  Incandescent need more current than that so look off.  So, commonly a resister is put in line with the LED lights to "kill" the tiny current that the LED is displaying.

If the lighting controller is just a relay, then it shouldn't be passing any current when off.  If it's a Mosfet (not a coil relay), then it might be passing the tiny current.  Frank might know how the controller is controlling the Light circuit...

[Frank McElroy]

21 minutes ago, DavidL said:

Because LEDs take so little current to work, some lighting controllers (especially those that support dimming) "bleed" a little current that the LED will then turn on.  Incandescent need more current than that so look off.  So, commonly a resister is put in line with the LED lights to "kill" the tiny current that the LED is displaying.

If the lighting controller is just a relay, then it shouldn't be passing any current when off.  If it's a Mosfet (not a coil relay), then it might be passing the tiny current.  Frank might know how the controller is controlling the Light circuit...

Dave, yes, MOSFETs are used to turn the lights on and off.  A small current will always flow causing LEDs to be dimly lit.

[DavidL]

1 minute ago, Frank McElroy said:

Dave, yes, MOSFETs are used to turn the lights on and off.  A small current will always flow causing LEDs to be dimly lit.

Ok, so then he might need to add a resistor to GND to "bleed" off the tiny current that is passing when Off.

Can Mike put a voltmeter on the circuit before the lights to tell us how many volts exist when the lights are supposed to be off?

[LakeBob]

5 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Dave, yes, MOSFETs are used to turn the lights on and off.  A small current will always flow causing LEDs to be dimly lit.

I have this issue with all the LED docking lights, porch light, etc I've switched out.  Can you please advise what size resistor you should put in line to prevent this?  

I assume this will work with the overhead cockpit lights as well.   Had to put the halogens back in as the led's were quite a distraction in the evening.

Thanks!

[DavidL]

https://www.superbrightleds.com/vehicle-lights/motorcycle/flashers-load-resistors/led-light-load-resistor-kit-led-turn-signal-hyper-flash-warning-fix+packamt-2-Pack

MIGHT be something like that is needed.

 

EDIT - cheaper here

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PBQPTXT/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=2c03134bb037dbb8eed0d3c3664f3c38&content-id=amzn1.sym.cd95889f-432f-43a7-8ec8-833616493f4a%3Aamzn1.sym.cd95889f-432f-43a7-8ec8-833616493f4a&hsa_cr_id=0&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=15be6812-2bef-4125-bdb7-c807653f7270&pd_rd_w=Pv1ay&pd_rd_wg=pEBnV&qid=1689707739&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_1_title&sr=1-2-9e67e56a-6f64-441f-a281-df67fc737124

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by DavidL

[Tom Cherry]

41 minutes ago, LakeBob said:

I have this issue with all the LED docking lights, porch light, etc I've switched out.  Can you please advise what size resistor you should put in line to prevent this?  

I assume this will work with the overhead cockpit lights as well.   Had to put the halogens back in as the led's were quite a distraction in the evening.

Thanks!

Fascinating stuff.  My interior, formerly Halogens, do not have a residual “dim”.  I have the hybrid Intellitec MPX, SO  the interior lights of a Dynasty and up are controlled by the same of similar Output modules.  My front Cockpit lights are switched (on/off) as are my bay and docking lights.  If i read and understand correctly, I would not have issues as there are, to the best of my knowledge, any electronic controls involved.  Learn something every day….but it does not increase my SS check…..LOL.

[LakeBob]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Fascinating stuff.  My interior, formerly Halogens, do not have a residual “dim”.  I have the hybrid Intellitec MPX, SO  the interior lights of a Dynasty and up are controlled by the same of similar Output modules.  My front Cockpit lights are switched (on/off) as are my bay and docking lights.  If i read and understand correctly, I would not have issues as there are, to the best of my knowledge, any electronic controls involved.  Learn something every day….but it does not increase my SS check…..LOL.

The only interior lights that present this issue on my Kongsberg coach are the overhead cockpit lights.   These work through the front CCM and Eaton slave switch systems.   All other interior lights are LEDs and work properly. 

As Frank and others stated, this is due to the MOSFET circuit used to turn these on and off.  Similar situation with the docking, porch, and bay lights.   Need some help on the proper resistor fix...

[DavidL]

33 minutes ago, LakeBob said:

The only interior lights that present this issue on my Kongsberg coach are the overhead cockpit lights.   These work through the front CCM and Eaton slave switch systems.   All other interior lights are LEDs and work properly. 

As Frank and others stated, this is due to the MOSFET circuit used to turn these on and off.  Similar situation with the docking, porch, and bay lights.   Need some help on the proper resistor fix...

Did you see my post with the two links?  Very good chance those will work.  Would need some voltage measurements for any more specifics.  But, after all that is said and done, the links will probably provide a resistor that would work.  Basically, it emulates having an incandescent bulb in the series.

[LakeBob]

5 hours ago, DavidL said:

Did you see my post with the two links?  Very good chance those will work.  Would need some voltage measurements for any more specifics.  But, after all that is said and done, the links will probably provide a resistor that would work.  Basically, it emulates having an incandescent bulb in the series.

Thanks, Yes I did see the post.  That looks like a good,  ready made solution!  

[Mike Barrett]

15 hours ago, DavidL said:

Ok, so then he might need to add a resistor to GND to "bleed" off the tiny current that is passing when Off.

Can Mike put a voltmeter on the circuit before the lights to tell us how many volts exist when the lights are supposed to be off?

As soon as it stops raining 🙂

[dl_racing427]

On 7/18/2023 at 5:21 PM, DavidL said:

Did you see my post with the two links?  Very good chance those will work.  Would need some voltage measurements for any more specifics.  But, after all that is said and done, the links will probably provide a resistor that would work.  Basically, it emulates having an incandescent bulb in the series.

The biggest problem with that method is it results in a small leakage current on your batteries, and also negates any advantage from using LED's instead of incandescent bulbs.

I'd investigate installing one or more diodes in series to stop the LED from conducting.
Measure the residual voltage. Each silicon diode drops about 0.6v forward biased, which is in addition to the 1v or so that the LED takes to turn on.
If the residual voltage is less than a couple volts, a couple diodes could solve the problem.

[DavidL]

3 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

The biggest problem with that method is it results in a small leakage current on your batteries, and also negates any advantage from using LED's instead of incandescent bulbs.

I'd investigate installing one or more diodes in series to stop the LED from conducting.
Measure the residual voltage. Each silicon diode drops about 0.6v forward biased, which is in addition to the 1v or so that the LED takes to turn on.
If the residual voltage is less than a couple volts, a couple diodes could solve the problem.

I would say the reason to upgrade to LED is to get more reliable bulbs, that are brighter, and consume less energy.   Plus gives one the chance to clean things up during the upgrade 🙂   The residual current is being wasted today already.  Negligible affect on battery life.

[dl_racing427]

5 hours ago, DavidL said:

I would say the reason to upgrade to LED is to get more reliable bulbs, that are brighter, and consume less energy.   Plus gives one the chance to clean things up during the upgrade 🙂   The residual current is being wasted today already.  Negligible affect on battery life.

I should have said negates ONE advantage to using LED's. 😉

It's true that the leakage current is already there, but why not correct it while you're into the wiring anyway?

[DavidL]

9 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

The biggest problem with that method is it results in a small leakage current on your batteries, and also negates any advantage from using LED's instead of incandescent bulbs.

I'd investigate installing one or more diodes in series to stop the LED from conducting.
Measure the residual voltage. Each silicon diode drops about 0.6v forward biased, which is in addition to the 1v or so that the LED takes to turn on.
If the residual voltage is less than a couple volts, a couple diodes could solve the problem.

Are you sure that diode method would allow the bulbs to turn on?  when over the forward bias voltage?  I haven't thought too much about it.  Certainly the diode would need to be high enough watts to support the led light load.  And if someone was to replace an LED with incandescent down the road....the diode might fry from the higher wattage....just needs to be scaled accordingly.  

[dl_racing427]

40 minutes ago, DavidL said:

Are you sure that diode method would allow the bulbs to turn on?  when over the forward bias voltage?  I haven't thought too much about it.  Certainly the diode would need to be high enough watts to support the led light load.  And if someone was to replace an LED with incandescent down the road....the diode might fry from the higher wattage....just needs to be scaled accordingly.  

That is true, it would be important to stick with LED's after the mod.
A silicon diode typically drops about 0.6 volts regardless of forward current, up to it's limit of course.
A .6 to 1.2 volt drop to the LED should only negligibly affect brightness.

I guess the real issue is how much dry camping you do.  We're talking probably 50ma max per bulb.
A couple bulbs won't make much difference, but if you're talking 40 or 50 lights throughout the coach, it could add up.

[cbr046]

If there's enough leakage to cause an LED to glow faintly then going back to incandescent won't stop the leakage - you just won't see it.

Which makes me wonder:  Wouldn't that, over time, run down the chassis batteries? 

There's a drain on my chassis batts but I always thought it was the ECM / TCM in some sort of standby mode.  I just shut off the chassis batts after I've arrived.  I couldn't troubleshoot now if I wanted to (broken foot). 

Put a voltmeter on the LED in the circuit in it's "off" state and measure the voltage.  If it's over 0.6V but less than 1.2V add a second diode.  These can be garden variety diodes from Radio Shack (if it still existed) as long as they are rated for the current (with a margin).  And remember: ANY short circuit on a diode will blow it, just like a fuse. 

- bob

 

[LakeBob]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:55 PM, DavidL said:

https://www.superbrightleds.com/vehicle-lights/motorcycle/flashers-load-resistors/led-light-load-resistor-kit-led-turn-signal-hyper-flash-warning-fix+packamt-2-Pack

MIGHT be something like that is needed.

 

EDIT - cheaper here

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PBQPTXT/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=2c03134bb037dbb8eed0d3c3664f3c38&content-id=amzn1.sym.cd95889f-432f-43a7-8ec8-833616493f4a%3Aamzn1.sym.cd95889f-432f-43a7-8ec8-833616493f4a&hsa_cr_id=0&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=15be6812-2bef-4125-bdb7-c807653f7270&pd_rd_w=Pv1ay&pd_rd_wg=pEBnV&qid=1689707739&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_1_title&sr=1-2-9e67e56a-6f64-441f-a281-df67fc737124

 

To be clear, you would put these resistors between the bulb and ground? 

Thanks!

[DavidL]

1 hour ago, LakeBob said:

To be clear, you would put these resistors between the bulb and ground? 

Thanks!

yup.

Put the resister between Ground and the Bulb Positive (just like how the bulbs are wired)

The diode method:  Put the diode on the positive before the bulb.

But we really need someone to measure voltages when off with the LED bulbs in place to provide specific parts.

The resistors linked should be fine.

 

Leakage:  I don't think you will see any difference to dry camping battery time with our without the diodes.  All of these RVs with same control system have been "leaking" since new....no one complained.

Edited July 21, 2023 by DavidL

[Mike Barrett]

On 7/18/2023 at 5:21 PM, DavidL said:

Did you see my post with the two links?  Very good chance those will work.  Would need some voltage measurements for any more specifics.  But, after all that is said and done, the links will probably provide a resistor that would work.  Basically, it emulates having an incandescent bulb in the series.

I metered the connector this a.m. and came up with 3.6 volts for everything other than the drl labeled wire that actually ran to the fog lights.

Asked Frankvif we should stsrt a thread for konsberg and all thing with electrons as suggested elsewhere.

Have a great day.

 

Mike

 

[DavidL]

5 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

I metered the connector this a.m. and came up with 3.6 volts for everything other than the drl labeled wire that actually ran to the fog lights.

Asked Frankvif we should stsrt a thread for konsberg and all thing with electrons as suggested elsewhere.

Have a great day.

 

Mike

 

We are only interested in the voltage that the offending LED bulb sees when the circuit is "off".

3.6v sounds too high.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by DavidL

[dl_racing427]

9 hours ago, DavidL said:

We are only interested in the voltage that the offending LED bulb sees when the circuit is "off".

3.6v sounds too high.

 

Agreed.

Mike, was that measurement with the LED installed?

[Mike Barrett]

10 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

Agreed.

Mike, was that measurement with the LED installed?

Was at the6 wire main connector

Wanting to try to contribute as much as I consume. This forum has been amazingly helpful to me.

[DavidL]

4 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

Was at the6 wire main connector

Wanting to try to contribute as much as I consume. This forum has been amazingly helpful to me.

hi Mike,  At least I don't know what the 6 wire main connector connects.

For the purposes of figuring out what diode(s) are needed, we would need a voltage measurement across the LED bulb that is dimly lit when supposed to be off.  So, the ground on the ground wire of the bulb, and the positive lead of the multimeter on the positive side of the dim bulb.