Boondocking Newbies

[jimc99999]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:04 PM, Steve P said:

The Generator starts using the chassis batteries, right?

This is coach-dependent. My 97 Windsor had the generator starting from the house batteries, which sucked. If the batteries had been used much, I had to use the battery boost to start the generator, and when that started getting unreliable, a set of jumper cables from the chassis to house batteries. 

When I replaced the battery isolator, boost solenoid and chassis battery trickle charger with the ML-ACR, I also pulled the generator start circuit off the house side and connected to the chassis batteries. Much better idea, because the chassis batteries always have the juice and they're built to flow starting current. 

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

As i said, we have a lot of smart folks on Lithium.  Good the price is coming down.   Your knowledge of how they work and such would be appreciated.  However, even with my out od date facts on costs, the successful Lithium users, if I can generalize have a much more technical and practical level of experience….and he states he is just learning.  In addition, the charging and proper care of the investment is, or at least what I gather, the major obstacle….so, if he converted, his Magnum would not be the charging device.   So, until he defines his needs and verifies the SOC of his AGM’s talk of replacement seems premature….but all the posts seem to be advocating a change.  Maybe a change is not necessary….that is fundamental….maybe got lost in the info blitz.
 

As stated, OP @Steve P is still in the perhaps, information overload state…..and needs to understand exactly how the basic charging system and how his banks work and such first.  Then determine his needs.  But fundamentally, he asked about “tips” and got bombarded.  My focus is basic understanding of his equipment and also what he needs…

Over the past 10 plus years, I have spent a LOT of time on the phone with Trojan and Magnum.  Not exaggerating, but probably 5 or more extended discussions on care and maintenance with Trojan.  Three or more…approaching 20 calls with Magnum.  So, here is the way that I understand it and why the “simplistic” set your AGS to 50% SOC or 12.0 VDC, to use your term, is 10 years out of date.  I’ll try a different approach to explain it.  At least 5 Magnum techs have agreed that this concept is the correct one for the Magnum system. THEN, you might ask….why not change the manual.  The resounding answer is….”Our average user would not be able to fully understand it”.  The consensus was that if the house bank was on the “fair” side, then there might not be enough House capacity to crank the Generator.

OK, point blank asked them….what if the Genny is cranked off the Chassis like most of the newer (as in 2006 or so) Dynasty and above are configured.  Half did not know that….and the comment was that most MH’s use the House Bank to crank the Genny.  Then they revert back to the “keep it SIMPLE” and not get into the real world…..and most of our folks here, that delve into the level that you do, should easily understand.

OK…..This is what Magnum and Trojan say and agree with my statement.

First….the Magnum remote is NOT a precise instrument and there is NO Calibration procedure.  Purchase a new remote….it may not display the same voltages..  +/-10% is the advertised tolerance.  Now, from helping many folks, off and online, I know the remote is more accurate.  But, the “Load” or “unloaded” comparison of the House Bank with a quality VOM and comparing that to the Remote USUALLY results in the remote reading lower…I ballpark that at 0.1 to 0.2 VDC.  So, in effect, your batteries are a bit better than the remote indicates.  The CAVEAT…an owner MUST do the comparison and have his own “real voltage” compensation number.  It sure would be intriguing if I could post a poll and get a lot of knowledgeable Magnum owners to do the load and no load VOM vs Remote readings….maybe I could try that??.

OK…let’s assume that the remote and the VOM ARE the same….

Now, lets look at what one is trying to accomplish….you want the Genny to start when the “RECOVERY” voltage is at a 50% SOC.  This is Trojan’s Mantra.  Run or discharge the batteries to a 50 SOC…which is NOT the LOAD Voltage.  Trojan recommends a “test” or discharge rate EDIT 5 to 10% or around 7.5%. END EDIT….of the total Amp Hour capacity.  I did the math in so many posts….but for a 4 battery bank, you need around 450 Watts of AC load.  Please run the numbers yourself and verify…I do it occasionally as a “did I do it right”. OK, you put on a Quartz Halogen work light in that range.  That, other than a carbon pile tester, which I was told won’t work, is the simplest.

Next up.  The intent is to set the AGS to the LOAD Voltage that will be expected so that the batteries are at a 50 SOC.  The definition of SOC is the RECOVERY voltage….NOT the LOAD voltage.  

NOW…how big a deal is this….depends on you.  If you don’t mind getting say 75% of the optimum life out of a bank….set it for the load.  But. If you understand that there is only a finite number of discharge and recharge cycles, like Trojan says, then, based on their testing and research and experience, to get the optimum life, you need to set the AGS to start recharging at the REAL or Recovery SOC.  

Thats the best I can do, approaching it from a different avenue,  YES….the Magnum does NOT trigger the AGS when a blip hits….but the AGS works off the DISPLAYED voltage….maybe the voltage has to drop 0.1 VDC for a minute or two.

SO, first you have to know how accurate the REMOTE is…compared to the actual bank voltage.  Second, you need to know, from the standard 10% drawdown or discharge rate, what the recovery voltage is…..but you also need to know what the LOAD voltage is…so, you do the test, as Trojan outlines…and set the LOAD voltage to the value….that achieves the 12.0 VDC Recovery voltage….and the laws of physics or EE show that a discharged battery, left alone….no load, will spring back.  How much…that is the purpose of the test,  I know mine.

That’s the long and short of it….

BTW, I assume your statement about your Victron 700 and the accuracy is based on a side vy side comparison.  Just how accurate are they?  But regardless of the meter vs VOM, the set point for the AGS has to be the “load voltage” to achieve a 50 SOC or around 12.0 V….

Thanks for the comments….and I will defer to you and others now that Lithium prices have come down….

@Steve P
 

Steve, the chassis batteries only power the radio when ON.  The “standby” or memory for the clock and presets are PROBABLY….assuming that our lower ends are all the same, hooked up to the House.  Yes…look at your prints….or kill the house bank…disconnect the jumpers…..wait a while….the radio has in internal capacitor for blips……maybe an hour…..then reconnect….turn on the ignition.  Is the clock right?  

Next, yes, you DO have, based on what I know, a BIRD system.  But you stated there was a maintainer.  There are two types of maintainer.

One is the Lambert or the Ample Start.  These are DC THIEVES.  They STEAL power from the House to keep the chassis maintained.  It COULD have been that the previous owner did NOT have shore power in storage and added that.  Having that does NOT mean that the Big Boy BIRD Charging system does not work.  The downside of the theif….it will eventually KILL the house.

the OTHER type of maintainer, for folks WITHOUT a BIRD system, but have power in storage, is a 120 VAC 1.5 or slightky higher “box”….this is quite common.

You need to be specific in which type.

You are already inundated.  So, getting into “OK, HOW DO I TEST AND VERIFY” my BIRD system is another subject for another day after you grasp the basics.  Delving into that is not recommended now,

BUT, if you DO have power in storage and are concerned about your BIRD system working….the simple, temporary step…put a jumper cable between the POSITIVE terminals on the HOUSE and CHASSIS….thus…both banks stay charged.   Many of us do that for extended periods…..

Stay focused…..and read….

Tom, this is an interesting conversation, but I don't think the OP was asking how batteries are work, or even considered replacing them.  But I must address a couple things that could be misleading or superseded by technology.

  First, all the charts and voltage to SOC graphs were developed in the lab using what was considered sophisticated equipment.  That equipment is now available to all of us at a very reasonable price.  Since we all didn't have common place Battery Monitors 20 -25 years ago, the manufacturers ran test and noted the voltage when the SOC was at different values.  The voltage does not determine the SOC.  Indeed, voltage has absolutely nothing to do with the SOC of a battery.  But everyone wanted to know "how much battery power" they had.  Since voltmeters were common, the manufactures generated graphs and charts that interpolated SOC to voltage, for a specific battery.  The only reason you need to consider voltage in SOC is that is used to determine Battery Capacity.  You have partially described that process of discharging at a fixed known rate (Amps) until the battery reaches the voltage the manufacturer defines as "fully discharged".  By maintaining that constant current, over the whole discharge time (not easy as many load are resistive, and as the voltage decreases during discharge, so does the current (E=IR) so some means need to be incorporated to ensure the current remains the same over the full discharge cycle.  Then, you simply multiply the the discharge current rate (in Amps) time the time it took to reach the manufacturers defined voltage (in Hours) and you have the battery capacity (in Amp-Hours).  But this is not normally necessary.  Most of us can accept the manufacturers stated capacity instead.  After you know the Battery Capacity, you never need to look at voltage again.  State of Charge (SOC) is a measure of how many electrons are still available based on how many a fully battery has.  So, you measure the electron flow out of the battery (Amps is a measure of electron flow over time).  If you had 100 electrons (for illustrative purposes only) and 50 of them were drawn out of the battery, you have 50% capacity left or the SOC is 50%  It makes no difference if the battery we are talking about is 6 volt, 12 volt, or 48 volt.  Granted the voltages at 50% will be different than at 100%, but what we really care about is how much capacity is left (SOC) or how much capacity we have used (DOD - Depth Of Discharge).  Since the instrumentation to measure the flow of electrons out (and back into under charging) is readily available, there is no need to worry about voltage or the accuracy of the Inverter voltmeter (in so far as using voltage to determine remaining battery capacity.  So, we can basically forget about voltage and calibration and accuracy of the voltmeter for purposes of determining SOC.  The electron flow is usually measured by a Shunt installed in the negative battery terminal such that all current for that battery bank must flow through it, and electronic circuitry to take the measurement from the shunt, and apply algorithms (math functions) to it using the user inputed Battery Capacity and provides the SOC value.  This is often displayed on a readout, but more recently may not include the readout, and send the info via Bluetooth to a phone or tablet for display. 

Ok, now on to AGS (Auto Gen Start).  I think I understand what you are trying to relate, in simple terms the battery voltage of a battery under load is lower that the voltage would be if that battery were not under a load.  The difference depends on a lot of things, but primarily the amount of load and the Battery Capacity.  Obviously, the higher the load, the more it will drag down the instantaneous battery voltage.  But the Battery Capacity also plays into this too.  If I have twice the battery capacity, the amount the voltage will drop under the same load is less (not necessarily exactly one-half though).  So, what you are proposing, is what Magnum talks about in their remote manual for setting the AGS, is to use a slightly lower voltage than what voltage has been extrapolated to relate to 50% SOC.  This discussion applies to Lead Acid (FLA, AGM, etc.), NOT Lithium.  Since it is an industry accepted practice to limit discharge of lead acid batteries to no more than 50% SOC.  Ideally, we would use SOC (as Victron and many newer technology devices allow), since we wouldn't have to worry about this pesky voltage scenario, but most Magnum Inverters, even though they can display SOC, don't allow for that to be used in AGS.  The term RECOVERY, as defined by Lifeline (I can find no reference to that term being used by Trojan) refers to deeply discharged (less than 1.93 volts/cell or 11.6 volts for a 12 volt battery).  They define a special procedure to recharge these batteries in hopes of rejuvenating them.  I think it best that "Recovery" be eliminated from discussions because its use is confusing. 

Victron's Specification for State of Charge (SOC) is =/- 0.1% over the 0 - 100% range.  Voltage is =+-0.01V over 0 - 100Volts, Current +/- 0.01 (0 - 10A), +/- 0.1A )10 - 500A) and +/- 1.0A (500 - 9999A).  Much more accurate than we need for our purposes.  But remember, this equipment is designed for commercial (small towns in remote areas use Victron equipment with solar farm for the their sole power).  

Tom, you are wrong in your characterization of Lambert or Amp-L-Start and similar types of maintainers as THIEVES.  This is simply not true.  Yes, they take voltage from one battery bank to maintain another battery bank, but ONLY when a battery bank is being charged.  The only connect the two banks together when the voltage of the "doner" bank is above 13.5 volts, and disconnect when the voltage drops to 12.8 volts.  (These are spec's from one device, so the actual voltages may differ slightly).  So, there is no possibility of the device allowing the "doner" battery to discharge.  There are great devices, and I highly recommend them for those who use solar.  For people who use mostly solar to charge their batteries, most connect it only to the house batteries.  Under these conditions, the chassis batteries would never get charged (assuming the generator is not used).  But with these types of maintainers, once the house batteries are charged (above 13.5 volts - typically Float Voltage) they engage and begin "stealing" the excess charge from the solar panel to maintain the chassis batteries.  

I'm not being argumentative, but trying to be informative, and reduce "wives tales".

  -Rick N.

 

20 minutes ago, jimc99999 said:

This is coach-dependent. My 97 Windsor had the generator starting from the house batteries, which sucked. If the batteries had been used much, I had to use the battery boost to start the generator, and when that started getting unreliable, a set of jumper cables from the chassis to house batteries. 

When I replaced the battery isolator, boost solenoid and chassis battery trickle charger with the ML-ACR, I also pulled the generator start circuit off the house side and connected to the chassis batteries. Much better idea, because the chassis batteries always have the juice and they're built to flow starting current. 

I did the same on my 1997 Dynasty.

 

[Tom Cherry]

26 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Steve stated in his opening post, he doesn't have AGS!

Good catch.  I thought it was a Diplomat which had an option of an AGS.  The sales brochure does NOT LIST AN AGS.

HOWEVER….Speaking of misinformation or misunderstanding, i thought he referred to a BIRD system.  May be wrong, as this topic has broken every guard rail and lost focus.

To clarify for him, i think, he does NOT have a Bi-Directional charging system.  So, his chassis Bank will NOT be charged.

NOW, i based this on what the sales brochure says….often times, as we know, Monaco’s sales brochure and the owner’s manual are not in sync…

So, we have to assume plain Jane.

BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, @Steve P, you MUST verify that someone with knowledge set up your Magnum for AGM as well as the other parameters.

 

[Steve P]

Correct, I do not have AGS.

Clarifying, I definitely have a BIRD in my front left bay (it is factory labeled), and a solenoid that may or may not be operable in my battery bay.  The reason I say "not" is because the first winter I owned the beast, I had 20A shore power and the house batteries were fine, but the chassis batteries went dead (although they did recharge and are still fine. 

My Magnum is a less fully functioned version that is set according to what Magnum specified in a conversation with their tech (assuming I can follow directions 😉).

Thanks everyone!   Someday I may get a battery shunt and monitoring software, and a Blue Sea monitor thing, and a TPMS, and Starlink, ... yeah when the IRS suspends income tax!  

Tonight, I discovered the lights in my instrument cluster no longer work, so that's the next priority, although I rarely drive the beast at night, right after I fix the coolant sensor.   It's like the nightmare of hobbies!!

 

[96 EVO]

11 minutes ago, Steve P said:

 

Clarifying, I definitely have a BIRD in my front left bay (it is factory labeled), and a solenoid that may or may not be operable in my battery bay.  The reason I say "not" is because the first winter I owned the beast, I had 20A shore power and the house batteries were fine, but the chassis batteries went dead (although they did recharge and are still fine. 

 

 

It will be a large solenoid, likely with a sticker naming it 'Big Boy'.

While on shore power or gen power, it will be warm to the touch, if it's working.

If it is indeed a 'Big Boy' solenoid, it can be opened up, cleaned up, contacts sanded, and put back into service!

Edited October 26, 2023 by 96 EVO

[Tom Cherry]

16 hours ago, Steve P said:

Correct, I do not have AGS.

Clarifying, I definitely have a BIRD in my front left bay (it is factory labeled), and a solenoid that may or may not be operable in my battery bay.  The reason I say "not" is because the first winter I owned the beast, I had 20A shore power and the house batteries were fine, but the chassis batteries went dead (although they did recharge and are still fine. 

My Magnum is a less fully functioned version that is set according to what Magnum specified in a conversation with their tech (assuming I can follow directions 😉).

Thanks everyone!   Someday I may get a battery shunt and monitoring software, and a Blue Sea monitor thing, and a TPMS, and Starlink, ... yeah when the IRS suspends income tax!  

Tonight, I discovered the lights in my instrument cluster no longer work, so that's the next priority, although I rarely drive the beast at night, right after I fix the coolant sensor.   It's like the nightmare of hobbies!!

 

@Steve P

This topic is, per discussion with the “staff”, WAY off the rails.  Therefore, I will PM you and we can talk and I will give you some help.  Therefore, it is requested that further posts, dealing with the “add this” recommendations, cease so Steve can comprehend and determine if his batteries and systems are working OK as well as understand how much capacity he has and his options, by doing a few simple voltage measurements, can give his peace of mind.

Gang…..Thanks in advance for letting us sort through this.  The subject of “ADD ON’s, especially Battery Monitoring, was informative….but really mucking up the original topic.  It may be a good “general discussion” item….I may even start one….or someone else can…but not here….

Steve, FWIW….a picture of where the Big Boy solenoid is and the “components” around it would be a great help.  Here is where it gets tricky and we often have such “gee, I wonder why” situations where the OEM configuration has been modified.

I started to “correct” you as to having a TRUE BIRD system, as Monaco usually called that out in the electrical section of the sales brochure….which is NOT in the Knight.  Curiosity and a “trust but verify” nagging thought forced me, before I made that statement, to pull your manual.  BINGO, if you read the first page of section 8, you DO have a BIRD system.  OK…that means that there is NO NEED for a “maintainer” and adding it would be a total waste….UNLESS there was a problem with the BIRD control module.  When you referred to it as a “Maintainer” that then conjures up the image of a  Ample-Start….

https://www.bestconverter.com/AMP-L-START_c_211.html

Rick described, in detail, how it these “thieves”….which is what Ample-Start, calls their own product….I have used that term for years…..LOL.  works…..but, it is only for NON BIRD systems….of course, unless one doesn’t trust their BIRD circuity….and installed suspenders in case their belt broke.  

This confusion in terminology or the misuse of a name for a component is exactly what happens when we don’t have enough information or perhaps the proper understanding or terminology.  OK….you are probably referring to the Intellitec Diesel2 Bi-Directional “BIRDL control moduel….and it is not, by our commonly used  definitions here, a “maintainer”….The Big Boy Solenoid, part of a BIRD system,  is sort of a “dumb” slave.  It needs the Diesel2 Control device or module to activate when needed as well as deactivate when both banks are fully charged. Assuming that is right, please post a picture of the “device”.

Since you stated you have other priorities, please make sure you read and try to understand sections 8 & 9 of your manual.  Often, for folks that are not experienced, and that is no “slam” on you…I reread mine at least once a month…, many of the topics here are covered in detail and we encourage members to READ THE MANUAL.  Many times, we, the staff, will actually do that…so we often request that an owner do some research and “read the manual”.  Yes, that comment has become a “discussion” item with the staff in that many minor issues can be fixed without posting.  YES, if you don’t understand, then posting a topic to get “educated” is always welcomed…OK…so much for that.

I will send you a PM and we can talk and I will help you determine your battery SOC and give you some easy to use numbers so that you will know, just by checking the meter on your Magnum remote, that you will have battery power the next morning….snd when to crank or use your genny.

Once you understand this, then you can start to evaluate the costs and benefits of any additional instrumentation or adding Solar or getting nee batteries or whatever.  That was your original request….

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

@Steve P

This topic is, per discussion with the “staff”, WAY off the rails.  Therefore, I will PM you and we can talk and I will give you some help.  Therefore, it is requested that further posts, dealing with the “add this” recommendations, cease so Steve can comprehend and determine if his batteries and systems are working OK as well as understand how much capacity he has and his options, by doing a few simple voltage measurements, can give his peace of mind.

Gang…..Thanks in advance for letting us sort through this.  The subject of “ADD ON’s, especially Battery Monitoring, was informative….but really mucking up the original topic.  It may be a good “general discussion” item….I may even start one….or someone else can…but not here….

Steve, FWIW….a picture of where the Big Boy solenoid is and the “components” around it would be a great help.  Here is where it gets tricky and we often have such “gee, I wonder why” situations where the OEM configuration has been modified.

I started to “correct” you as to having a TRUE BIRD system, as Monaco usually called that out in the electrical section of the sales brochure….which is NOT in the Knight.  Curiosity and a “trust but verify” nagging thought forced me, before I made that statement, to pull your manual.  BINGO, if you read the first page of section 8, you DO have a BIRD system.  OK…that means that there is NO NEED for a “maintainer” and adding it would be a total waste….UNLESS there was a problem with the BIRD control module.  When you referred to it as a “Maintainer” that then conjures up the image of a  Ample-Start….

https://www.bestconverter.com/AMP-L-START_c_211.html

Rick described, in detail, how it these “thieves”….which is what Ample-Start, calls their own product….I have used that term for years…..LOL.  works…..but, it is only for NON BIRD systems….of course, unless one doesn’t trust their BIRD circuity….and installed suspenders in case their belt broke.  

This confusion in terminology or the misuse of a name for a component is exactly what happens when we don’t have enough information or perhaps the proper understanding or terminology.  OK….you are probably referring to the Intellitec Diesel2 Bi-Directional “BIRDL control moduel….and it is not, by our commonly used  definitions here, a “maintainer”….The Big Boy Solenoid, part of a BIRD system,  is sort of a “dumb” slave.  It needs the Diesel2 Control device or module to activate when needed as well as deactivate when both banks are fully charged. Assuming that is right, please post a picture of the “device”.

Since you stated you have other priorities, please make sure you read and try to understand sections 8 & 9 of your manual.  Often, for folks that are not experienced, and that is no “slam” on you…I reread mine at least once a month…, many of the topics here are covered in detail and we encourage members to READ THE MANUAL.  Many times, we, the staff, will actually do that…so we often request that an owner do some research and “read the manual”.  Yes, that comment has become a “discussion” item with the staff in that many minor issues can be fixed without posting.  YES, if you don’t understand, then posting a topic to get “educated” is always welcomed…OK…so much for that.

I will send you a PM and we can talk and I will help you determine your battery SOC and give you some easy to use numbers so that you will know, just by checking the meter on your Magnum remote, that you will have battery power the next morning….snd when to crank or use your genny.

Once you understand this, then you can start to evaluate the costs and benefits of any additional instrumentation or adding Solar or getting nee batteries or whatever.  That was your original request….

Tom, he does have a BIRD, if you can trust the 2008 Knight Owners Manual, Page 173.  

  -Rick N.

[Steve P]

I never really thought the discussion was off the rails, and certainly not WAY off.  Some of the opinionated and extremely verbose comments distracted, but were helpful after drilling down.  The subject of boondocking is wide and varied... deep waters!

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Tom, he does have a BIRD, if you can trust the 2008 Knight Owners Manual, Page 173.  

  -Rick N.

BINGO, if you read the first page of section 8, you DO have a BIRD system.  OK…that means that there is NO NEED for a “Maintainer”.

Rick, I said that.

Steve, we moderators and such have to make judgment calls.  It was you comments that influenced the decision as you said all this was a bit over your head and will take time to sort out.

The main reason….and Rick, I believe said it….was why all the “explanation”?  Our position is that in order to a member to use recommendations, they have to “understand” and Steve appeared to be overwhelmed with all the adds ons and such….

If folks want to keep the discussion going and it helps Steve, then go for it. The decision to allow a member to receive personalized online help is nothing new.  Over the past few years, myself or other staff members have requested that the thread remain dormant until such help is received and the various options, along with better information....as in one on one phone calls and exchanging texts with pictures is the best way.  Ordinarily, that is done when a member, online, voluntarily says he will help and has reached out.  In this case, no one volunteered, so I did....

BUT….from the focus and use of the members, the important points of “battery monitoring”, which is great information cannot be logically searched….as it is hidden in a topic that does not reflect the original question…

The other options would have been to cut and move posts and actually set up a discussion or change the title to something that reflects the discussion now, since it has morphed and dominated by "adding devices or changing batteries or such...." which was NOT the original question.  We don't, at this point, intend to shut it down....

Edited October 26, 2023 by Tom Cherry
Edited to provide explanation of the Staff's dilemma for a MORPHED topic

[Rico K 2005 Knight]

Hey Steve. We are avid boondockers. I did however install solar panels and they definitely keep us going. Can't say for how long because they have never let us down yet. Fingers 🤞 lol. Anyways, your batteries. Once you notice your panel shows anything below 12 volts start that generator and get them back up or you are taking a chance on damage to your inverter. Next, if you have a BIRD then both your batteries,  chassis and Coach will charge. My 2005 did not come with a BIRD and I now have added one. If you enjoy traveling and like to boondock then check out Harvest Hosts. It's a boondockers site. Hope this helps. Cheers man.

[Steve P]

In response to several comments and pleas for info and pics, here goes:  my generator will start only if the House Battery Bypass switch is on (it will not start with the House switch off and the Chassis switch on --  the primer pump clicks regardless of which switch is off... perhaps to allow use of the Battery Boost switch on the driver side control panel?).  

Please see attached pics of my BIRD, the solenoid in the battery bay, the battery maintainer, AND what appears to be another solenoid in the front driver run bay above and to the right of the BIRD (curious to know what this is for).

[Steve P]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:59 PM, waterskier_1 said:

Tom, this is an interesting conversation, but I don't think the OP was asking how batteries are work, or even considered replacing them.  But I must address a couple things that could be misleading or superseded by technology.

  First, all the charts and voltage to SOC graphs were developed in the lab using what was considered sophisticated equipment.  That equipment is now available to all of us at a very reasonable price.  Since we all didn't have common place Battery Monitors 20 -25 years ago, the manufacturers ran test and noted the voltage when the SOC was at different values.  The voltage does not determine the SOC.  Indeed, voltage has absolutely nothing to do with the SOC of a battery.  But everyone wanted to know "how much battery power" they had.  Since voltmeters were common, the manufactures generated graphs and charts that interpolated SOC to voltage, for a specific battery.  The only reason you need to consider voltage in SOC is that is used to determine Battery Capacity.  You have partially described that process of discharging at a fixed known rate (Amps) until the battery reaches the voltage the manufacturer defines as "fully discharged".  By maintaining that constant current, over the whole discharge time (not easy as many load are resistive, and as the voltage decreases during discharge, so does the current (E=IR) so some means need to be incorporated to ensure the current remains the same over the full discharge cycle.  Then, you simply multiply the the discharge current rate (in Amps) time the time it took to reach the manufacturers defined voltage (in Hours) and you have the battery capacity (in Amp-Hours).  But this is not normally necessary.  Most of us can accept the manufacturers stated capacity instead.  After you know the Battery Capacity, you never need to look at voltage again.  State of Charge (SOC) is a measure of how many electrons are still available based on how many a fully battery has.  So, you measure the electron flow out of the battery (Amps is a measure of electron flow over time).  If you had 100 electrons (for illustrative purposes only) and 50 of them were drawn out of the battery, you have 50% capacity left or the SOC is 50%  It makes no difference if the battery we are talking about is 6 volt, 12 volt, or 48 volt.  Granted the voltages at 50% will be different than at 100%, but what we really care about is how much capacity is left (SOC) or how much capacity we have used (DOD - Depth Of Discharge).  Since the instrumentation to measure the flow of electrons out (and back into under charging) is readily available, there is no need to worry about voltage or the accuracy of the Inverter voltmeter (in so far as using voltage to determine remaining battery capacity.  So, we can basically forget about voltage and calibration and accuracy of the voltmeter for purposes of determining SOC.  The electron flow is usually measured by a Shunt installed in the negative battery terminal such that all current for that battery bank must flow through it, and electronic circuitry to take the measurement from the shunt, and apply algorithms (math functions) to it using the user inputed Battery Capacity and provides the SOC value.  This is often displayed on a readout, but more recently may not include the readout, and send the info via Bluetooth to a phone or tablet for display. 

Ok, now on to AGS (Auto Gen Start).  I think I understand what you are trying to relate, in simple terms the battery voltage of a battery under load is lower that the voltage would be if that battery were not under a load.  The difference depends on a lot of things, but primarily the amount of load and the Battery Capacity.  Obviously, the higher the load, the more it will drag down the instantaneous battery voltage.  But the Battery Capacity also plays into this too.  If I have twice the battery capacity, the amount the voltage will drop under the same load is less (not necessarily exactly one-half though).  So, what you are proposing, is what Magnum talks about in their remote manual for setting the AGS, is to use a slightly lower voltage than what voltage has been extrapolated to relate to 50% SOC.  This discussion applies to Lead Acid (FLA, AGM, etc.), NOT Lithium.  Since it is an industry accepted practice to limit discharge of lead acid batteries to no more than 50% SOC.  Ideally, we would use SOC (as Victron and many newer technology devices allow), since we wouldn't have to worry about this pesky voltage scenario, but most Magnum Inverters, even though they can display SOC, don't allow for that to be used in AGS.  The term RECOVERY, as defined by Lifeline (I can find no reference to that term being used by Trojan) refers to deeply discharged (less than 1.93 volts/cell or 11.6 volts for a 12 volt battery).  They define a special procedure to recharge these batteries in hopes of rejuvenating them.  I think it best that "Recovery" be eliminated from discussions because its use is confusing. 

Victron's Specification for State of Charge (SOC) is =/- 0.1% over the 0 - 100% range.  Voltage is =+-0.01V over 0 - 100Volts, Current +/- 0.01 (0 - 10A), +/- 0.1A )10 - 500A) and +/- 1.0A (500 - 9999A).  Much more accurate than we need for our purposes.  But remember, this equipment is designed for commercial (small towns in remote areas use Victron equipment with solar farm for the their sole power).  

Tom, you are wrong in your characterization of Lambert or Amp-L-Start and similar types of maintainers as THIEVES.  This is simply not true.  Yes, they take voltage from one battery bank to maintain another battery bank, but ONLY when a battery bank is being charged.  The only connect the two banks together when the voltage of the "doner" bank is above 13.5 volts, and disconnect when the voltage drops to 12.8 volts.  (These are spec's from one device, so the actual voltages may differ slightly).  So, there is no possibility of the device allowing the "doner" battery to discharge.  There are great devices, and I highly recommend them for those who use solar.  For people who use mostly solar to charge their batteries, most connect it only to the house batteries.  Under these conditions, the chassis batteries would never get charged (assuming the generator is not used).  But with these types of maintainers, once the house batteries are charged (above 13.5 volts - typically Float Voltage) they engage and begin "stealing" the excess charge from the solar panel to maintain the chassis batteries.  

I'm not being argumentative, but trying to be informative, and reduce "wives tales".

  -Rick N.

 

I did the same on my 1997 Dynasty.

 

 

[Steve P]

Well, we are trying things out but we have no shore power as backup.  The generator ran 3-4 hours this afternoon, and we had the A/C's going to keep cool.  I thought it was charging the house batteries.  But maybe not... it was showing float charging at 14.3-14.4V on the Magnum remote the entire time.  Note: I did not press either the Charger or the Inverter buttons while running the genny.

When I shut off the genny, the Magnum remote read 13.2V.  The EMS showed a draw of about 10A.  I unplugged everything I could think of and reduced that to 5-6A.  Then I turned on the Inverter using the button on the Magnum remote.  Immediately, the voltage started dropping and within a minute it hit 12V, then 11.9.  I turned off the Inverter. 

Thinking maybe the charge button needed to be On, I fired up the genny again and the screen read "Charging 71A" for about 1 minute or so while the voltage climbed from 12V to 14 3V.  Then it went to "Absorb Charging   17A" and has been reading that for about 30 mins. 

I'm hauling out the Magnum manual again to review the instructions in light of my experience.  If anyone has insight to correct procedure or best practices, I'm all ears.  When I read the manual, it all seems si simple, but the execution is confusing to me.  Is the Magnum remote in any way automatic, or is it totally driven by the user inputs?

Thanks, 

Steve

[Steve P]

After an hour, it reverted to "Float charging  13.9V  0A", so if I understand that's a good sign.  Even if it can't obtain "Full Charge".  I'll wait a few mins and see what happens when I cut off the genny and try the Inverter again.  If the voltage plummets, I'll just cut off the Inverter, and hope the Norcold will still work (has been on AC since the genny is on).  And that the MH starts in the morning.  And now the panel is staying in Float charging, with about 13.4V, but fluctuates between 0A, 17A, 3A... no pattern.

Didn't work... 45A draw as soon as I hit Inverter.  13.2V goes down to 12.0 in 15-30 seconds.  Maybe the house batteries are bad?...  new problem for tomorrow 

[Ivan K]

I don't have a Magnum but it appears that the charger part works fine. You may want to work on the parasitic discharge, I got it down between 1- 1.7 amp but that's not what's killing your batteries right now. Do you have a way to measure the inverter consumption once you turn it on? It's either too big or the batteries don't hold charge. I suppose you switched the Norcold to propane before turning it ON.

[Steve P]

Maybe... testing again this morning to make sure.  Too little sleep 2 nights in a row! 

[Tom Cherry]

11 hours ago, Steve P said:

Well, we are trying things out but we have no shore power as backup.  The generator ran 3-4 hours this afternoon, and we had the A/C's going to keep cool.  I thought it was charging the house batteries.  But maybe not... it was showing float charging at 14.3-14.4V on the Magnum remote the entire time.  Note: I did not press either the Charger or the Inverter buttons while running the genny.

When I shut off the genny, the Magnum remote read 13.2V.  The EMS showed a draw of about 10A.  I unplugged everything I could think of and reduced that to 5-6A.  Then I turned on the Inverter using the button on the Magnum remote.  Immediately, the voltage started dropping and within a minute it hit 12V, then 11.9.  I turned off the Inverter. 

Thinking maybe the charge button needed to be On, I fired up the genny again and the screen read "Charging 71A" for about 1 minute or so while the voltage climbed from 12V to 14 3V.  Then it went to "Absorb Charging   17A" and has been reading that for about 30 mins. 

I'm hauling out the Magnum manual again to review the instructions in light of my experience.  If anyone has insight to correct procedure or best practices, I'm all ears.  When I read the manual, it all seems si simple, but the execution is confusing to me.  Is the Magnum remote in any way automatic, or is it totally driven by the user inputs?

Thanks, 

Steve

Summary of your TWO posts…if I read correctly.  The EMS only measures the AC incoming current.  I have never looked at mine when inverting….as it should NOT be measuring.  It is the INCOMING AC…at the Main Panel.  When inverting, the Magnum tells you the Voltage and Amps.  Multiply those two….gets Watts. Divide by 120 and that is the EQUIVALENT AMPS draw…

Please try this….my gut says….your House or at least ONE or more is TOAST.

When you get on 50 amps or run genny for 3 plus hours and see float are almost zero amps.  Stop and turn off the power or the Genny.

You have not said if you have a VOM….if so, use it.  Turn on some overhead lights.  Maybe 5 minutes.  Then shut OFF.  Turn OFF the House Disconnect.  Wait maybe half to an hour.

Use the VOM.  Measure the “bank”.  Give us the voltage….or post the Magnum’s reading.

the batteries are going immediately to HALF, actually lower….as you have AGM’s.  Half would be 12.24 VDC.

OK.  NOW, if you have a VOM, house disconnect OFF. pull the small (gray on the print I sent) Jumpers.  Then use a VOM on each.  My bet is one is around 4.x vdc….dead cell.  Will not recharge.  If you have two that read over 6 VDC….then install them in series.  Take out the bad two and only hook up 2.  Then you MIGHT have some capacity.

That’s it….

 

[Steve P]

Rolling this morning, and will measure she settled in FL Tues or Wed... thanks, I have VOM and will do as described

[Steven P]

Not sure if this is related to your issue, but your battery disconnect switches are known for failing and possible fires.  Most of us have replaced w Blue Seas disconnects similar to the pic below. When I did, one of mine was ok, but the other fell apart and was burnt inside. 

[waterskier_1]

I agree with Ivan, you either have a huge draw on the inverter, or the house batteries are bad and can't hold a charge, even though they seem to be taking one.  The battery charger is doing what I would expect given the voltages your posted.  You might go so far, if you are comfortable, of disconnect the AC OUTPUT of the inverter.  Then turn on the inverter and see if it behaves the same, or if it stays at 12.5 or so for a while.  If it does, then you know you have a problem in what is connected to the inverter.  You have something drawing huge loads, or possibly shorted wires.  I had a similar, but not as severe, situation when I got my first Monaco Dynasty.  I never used the inverter because it would peg the current out at about 100 Amps (based on light status).  Luckily another Monacoer was at the Quartzsite Monaco camp, and had the same unit.  In 1997 Dynasty, every out was on the inverter.  Including the block heater, which didn't have a switch back then.  You turned it on by plugging it in.  Well, this was in January, and I had the block heater plugged in before I left Colorado.  It didn't dawn on me that it would run off batteries (via the inverter), but Jim realized the problem right away.  So, you might have something you don't remember or realize is being powered by the inverter.

Good luck.

  -Rick N.

[jimc99999]

26 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

In 1997 Dynasty, every out was on the inverter.  Including the block heater, which didn't have a switch back then.  You turned it on by plugging it in.  Well, this was in January, and I had the block heater plugged in before I left Colorado.  It didn't dawn on me that it would run off batteries (via the inverter), but Jim realized the problem right away.  So, you might have something you don't remember or realize is being powered by the inverter.

When we stopped one cold evening, I plugged in the block heater, sure it must run only on generator/shore power, and was surprised to see 90 amp load on the inverter when I got back in the coach. I was planning to just start the genny to power the block heater sometime after 2am but it doesn’t work that way. 
 

BTW the manual states you shouldn’t run the motor with the block heater on so it’s definitely worth checking.

Edited October 29, 2023 by jimc99999

[Tom Cherry]

3 minutes ago, jimc99999 said:

When we stopped one cold evening, I plugged in the block heater, sure it must run only on generator/shore power, and was surprised to see 90 amp load on the inverter when I got back in the coach. I was planning to just start the genny to power the block heater sometime after 2am but it doesn’t work that way. 
 

BTW the manual states you shouldn’t run the motor with the block heater on so it’s definitely worth checking.

Fascinating.  On the newer or older Monaco Legacy coaches….the block heater is on the main panel.  That is NOT fed by the Inverter.  The 2000 watt inverters of the early 2000’s and on was the “inverting” or power wattage.  The Inverters were powered by 30 amp breakers….30 X 120 equals 3600 watts.  SO, you had 30 amps of usable power in the “pass through” mode….but, only 16.7 amps of “inverted” power.

Not disputing what you observed, but without a circuit, hard to evaluate.  90 amps usually means, on a 2000 watt inverter,  that has only 100 A of DC charging capacity, is that the Charger is in BULK or “sock it to it” mode.

Maybe someone has a print…but today, the block heaters are ALL Genny or Shore….just as the Water Heaters, Gas Refrig Electric elements and water heater electric elements….they feed off the main panel, as the AC’s do…

[96 EVO]

18 hours ago, Steve P said:

Well, we are trying things out but we have no shore power as backup.  The generator ran 3-4 hours this afternoon, and we had the A/C's going to keep cool.  I thought it was charging the house batteries.  But maybe not... it was showing float charging at 14.3-14.4V on the Magnum remote the entire time.  Note: I did not press either the Charger or the Inverter buttons while running the genny.

  Is the Magnum remote in any way automatic, or is it totally driven by the user inputs?

Thanks, 

Steve

Yes, the Magnum is automatic!

Even if you had for what ever reason, manually turned off charging the last time it had 120v power feeding it, after you unplugging / shut down the generator, the next time it get's 120v power from either source, battery charging will automatically be turned on!

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Fascinating.  On the newer or older Monaco Legacy coaches….the block heater is on the main panel.  That is NOT fed by the Inverter.  The 2000 watt inverters of the early 2000’s and on was the “inverting” or power wattage.  The Inverters were powered by 30 amp breakers….30 X 120 equals 3600 watts.  SO, you had 30 amps of usable power in the “pass through” mode….but, only 16.7 amps of “inverted” power.

Not disputing what you observed, but without a circuit, hard to evaluate.  90 amps usually means, on a 2000 watt inverter,  that has only 100 A of DC charging capacity, is that the Charger is in BULK or “sock it to it” mode.

Maybe someone has a print…but today, the block heaters are ALL Genny or Shore….just as the Water Heaters, Gas Refrig Electric elements and water heater electric elements….they feed off the main panel, as the AC’s do…

My Wiring Diagram Documents only go back to 1996, I owned a 1997 Dynasty, so I know what I speak.  I am attaching 1996 and 1998 Dynasty 110 VAC Wiring Distribution Diagrams clearly showing the Block Heater on the Inverter.  I can't answer why - only state the facts.  If you want the actual wiring circuitry as to how this was accomplished, blow up the circuit I have circled in the 1996 drawing.  Back then, the Shore Power (Generator) did NOT go through the inverter, and it didn't have an internal transfer switch like you are thinking of.  The Shore Power was relay switched between the Inverter and Shore in a separate device (the one I mentioned above.  By 2002, the Dynasty and above had gone to the circuitry you are thinking about, with a enable switch on the dash, an not powered by the inverter.  I don't have 2001 Dynasty Wiring Diagrams so I can't say when the changed occurred other than it was in either 2000 or 2001.  

Your math is correct regarding the amount of pass-through current, IF the shore power went through the inverter - I didn't as explained above.  Therefore, the full 50 Amps was available, times 2 since it's a 220 device.  When the inverter is power those outlets that it's connected to, if it was a 2000 Watt inverter (I think mine was 2500, but not sure) you would be limited to 2000 Watts, which indeed is 16.7 volts if output is 120 VAC.  Not sure that matters in this conversation.

Now, the 90 Amps is at 12.5 VDC which is 1125 Watts.  In fact, a 2000 Watt Inverter could draw 160 Amps at maximum load.  I think (but am not sure, and I don't have that coach anymore) the inverter 12 VDC input was fused at 200 Amps, but that doesn't have anything to do with inverter capability.  Now the Battery Charger capability has nothing to do with the inverter capability.  Yes, you are correct that a 2000 Watt Inverter's Battery Charging capability may be 100 Amps at max charging.  But, again, those are two distinctly separate devices in one box we conventionally call the inverter.  But neither depends upon the other.  In fact, my 3000 Watt Victron only has 125 or 150 Amp battery charger.  If charger were a factor in Inverter capacity, that would mean it had less than 2000 Watts (150 x 12.5 = 1875 Watts).

Your are correct that "today" all Monaco coaches' Block Heaters are only on Shore or Gen power.  But that wasn't the case for Monaco "Legacy" coaches.

[Tom Cherry]

5 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

My Wiring Diagram Documents only go back to 1996, I owned a 1997 Dynasty, so I know what I speak.  I am attaching 1996 and 1998 Dynasty 110 VAC Wiring Distribution Diagrams clearly showing the Block Heater on the Inverter.  I can't answer why - only state the facts.  If you want the actual wiring circuitry as to how this was accomplished, blow up the circuit I have circled in the 1996 drawing.  Back then, the Shore Power (Generator) did NOT go through the inverter, and it didn't have an internal transfer switch like you are thinking of.  The Shore Power was relay switched between the Inverter and Shore in a separate device (the one I mentioned above.  By 2002, the Dynasty and above had gone to the circuitry you are thinking about, with a enable switch on the dash, an not powered by the inverter.  I don't have 2001 Dynasty Wiring Diagrams so I can't say when the changed occurred other than it was in either 2000 or 2001.  

Your math is correct regarding the amount of pass-through current, IF the shore power went through the inverter - I didn't as explained above.  Therefore, the full 50 Amps was available, times 2 since it's a 220 device.  When the inverter is power those outlets that it's connected to, if it was a 2000 Watt inverter (I think mine was 2500, but not sure) you would be limited to 2000 Watts, which indeed is 16.7 volts if output is 120 VAC.  Not sure that matters in this conversation.

Now, the 90 Amps is at 12.5 VDC which is 1125 Watts.  In fact, a 2000 Watt Inverter could draw 160 Amps at maximum load.  I think (but am not sure, and I don't have that coach anymore) the inverter 12 VDC input was fused at 200 Amps, but that doesn't have anything to do with inverter capability.  Now the Battery Charger capability has nothing to do with the inverter capability.  Yes, you are correct that a 2000 Watt Inverter's Battery Charging capability may be 100 Amps at max charging.  But, again, those are two distinctly separate devices in one box we conventionally call the inverter.  But neither depends upon the other.  In fact, my 3000 Watt Victron only has 125 or 150 Amp battery charger.  If charger were a factor in Inverter capacity, that would mean it had less than 2000 Watts (150 x 12.5 = 1875 Watts).

Your are correct that "today" all Monaco coaches' Block Heaters are only on Shore or Gen power.  But that wasn't the case for Monaco "Legacy" coaches.

Thanks for the background.  As usual, we all learn and can have facts.  Wonder WHY Monaco put the Block heater on the Inverter.  Only the GODS and the few "Real Engineers" back then knew.

YES... My calculation of the incoming was just for those that didn't understand how a 2000 Watt (or a 2500) was rated and that the actual SHORE or GENNY load could be 3600....and you, obviously knew that....

NOW, without your prints....but trusting your memory.....The Inverter MAY have been fused at 200 Amps back then.  I do know the following....for a fact...and it is on the prints.  The 2009 Camelots have a 350 Amp REPLACABLE fuse for the 2000 Watt MS2012.  The Dynasties have a 450 (that is not a guess, but I would NOT stake my life on it ....plus or minus 25 Amps).  That is for the Dynasties (or the upper models) that have the 2800 Watt Magnum which is for the Res Refer option.  THAT is solid....within my memory...but you can look it up.  It is on a Dynasty print....a little hard to find, but there.

Thanks for confirming that Monaco did something strange....and then changed.  That is NOT a put down....but is a fact.  How many things have we seen, say electrically, changed since the 90's or the early 2000's and often wondered....WHY DID THEY EVER DO IT THAT WAY.  

My favorite...and you will guess is the STUPIDITY of running a Refrigerator with an ICEMAKER on a GFCI.  I have been involved in well over 50 topics...and the complaint is always the same.  GFCI trips.  Once an older one....that gets crotchety is replaced with a new one and a "rated" brand....then at least half are STILL TRIPS.  When the unplug the Icemaker line or put an extension cord on a Res Refer....then the GFCI holds.  THEN, if their coach is wired like the majority, they can move the Icemaker outlet to the LINE side of the GFCI.  

I SURE HOPE, as you pointed out, that someone told the GFCI folks to do some improvements and not allow the false positives of a small leak in an icemaker mold trip or cause a false positive....when the NEC requires it, as you posted, on all new construction....OTHERWISE....a LOT of appliances will be discarded needlessly and a LOT of contractors will have a better retirement...

Thanks for the update.