Time for New Tires

[rustykramermetalfab]

10 minutes ago, zmotorsports said:

 

Agreed Rusty, I think having the coach in a climate controlled environment when not in use plays a huge factor, but also routine usage is just as important.  I have only been fortunate to have our coach stored indoors for the past almost 7 years now as the first 10+ years of it's like as well as our previous two coaches were outside full-time.  The tires were covered however when not in use which wasn't quite as good as being indoors but better than nothing.

 

You guys are making me nervous about the smell of the Toyo's.  I really don't want my shop to smell like some kind of barnyard animal.  Hell, I couldn't wait to get off the d*** farm, let alone go back to having to smell one.  My last shop after working in it for 25+ years took on a smell of race fuel and machining oils and I LOVED it.  Would like to get my new one to smell like that eventually but now I'm nervous I may have introduced a not so pleasant smell into it.  The surrounding farms where we live are all the animal smell I can take.

Mike, I Agree that regular use is a good thing, I have read something about having the tires warmed up and flexing is good for keeping the adhesives more intact and less separation or something......   It seems to vary on how bad the smell is reported to be. I could smell it a bit when I picked it up and I would get a little hit of it when I would open my shop door for a while. Mine was not severe but my new tires were 6 months old when I got them. That was the best the warehouse had or at least was willing to look for.  That might be a benefit of having a little age on them.  The barnyard smell can be a real thing although some people say it's Bull-crap! 

Edited March 14 by rustykramermetalfab
info added.

[Frank McElroy]

9 minutes ago, zmotorsports said:

 

Agreed Rusty, I think having the coach in a climate controlled environment when not in use plays a huge factor, but also routine usage is just as important.  I have only been fortunate to have our coach stored indoors for the past almost 7 years now as the first 10+ years of it's like as well as our previous two coaches were outside full-time.  The tires were covered however when not in use which wasn't quite as good as being indoors but better than nothing.

 

You guys are making me nervous about the smell of the Toyo's.  I really don't want my shop to smell like some kind of barnyard animal.  Hell, I couldn't wait to get off the d*** farm, let alone go back to having to smell one.  My last shop after working in it for 25+ years took on a smell of race fuel and machining oils and I LOVED it.  Would like to get my new one to smell like that eventually but now I'm nervous I may have introduced a not so pleasant smell into it.  The surrounding farms where we live are all the animal smell I can take.

With the Toyos I didn't notice any smell different then any other new set of tires.

[Marine Boy]

FYI-MY Toyo M144s have been on my bus since Jan 2022 and were about 3 months old at installation.   I have not had any smell....  Been very happy with them.

[96 EVO]

My smelliest pair were manufactured in early 2014. I've since bought 8 more, some with a slight cow dung odor, but nothing like the first pair 🤢!

That pair also turned on the rims within the first 50mi ! So much for my spin balance!

Since you run Balance Masters, shouldn't be a problem.

Edited March 14 by 96 EVO

[Chargerman]

I was anticipating the ugly smell on my Toyos but mine just smelled of a strong new tire smell and it dissipated in a couple months  

[zmotorsports]

I'll soon find out on the smell, I just got an email stating the tires were delivered to my cousin's shop so I will run and grab them this afternoon.  Should be able to have them mounted over the weekend and get them back on the coach.

 

 

[Glen-Deb]

What are thots about “staggering” tire replacement & rotation? I’m thinking of rotating both steer Toyos (295x80x22.5) every 3 yrs (maybe 2.5 yrs?) so rear “outsides” would be replaced with 3 yr used steers & “insides” get outside 6 yr used tires. 
Dec 2023 I replaced both steer 2018  Toyos (good looking 20k mi.) to reduce worry about steer blow-out). 

[Chargerman]

I would think that it would be better to rotate your old steer tires to the same side on the rear so that they stay as pairs. This would keep similar sized tires due to wear to be matched on a side instead of putting one on each side and potentially had slightly mismatched diameters. Curious to what others may think  

[96 EVO]

5 hours ago, Glen-Deb said:

What are thots about “staggering” tire replacement & rotation? I’m thinking of rotating both steer Toyos (295x80x22.5) every 3 yrs (maybe 2.5 yrs?) so rear “outsides” would be replaced with 3 yr used steers & “insides” get outside 6 yr used tires. 
Dec 2023 I replaced both steer 2018  Toyos (good looking 20k mi.) to reduce worry about steer blow-out). 

Yeah, not sure.

My steer tires move to my tag axle for the remaining few years of life.

[Ivan K]

1 hour ago, Chargerman said:

I would think that it would be better to rotate your old steer tires to the same side on the rear so that they stay as pairs. This would keep similar sized tires due to wear to be matched on a side instead of putting one on each side and potentially had slightly mismatched diameters. Curious to what others may think  

I would agree if there is enough miles to make a difference. In real life, I don't know if truckers would care, they blow more tires than we do. I did  like Ben says eventhough with my 5/7 years F/R replacement schedule it will take a couple times before the fronts are younger than rears now. At least I keep the best old tire for spare.

Edited March 15 by Ivan K

[zmotorsports]

15 hours ago, Glen-Deb said:

What are thots about “staggering” tire replacement & rotation? I’m thinking of rotating both steer Toyos (295x80x22.5) every 3 yrs (maybe 2.5 yrs?) so rear “outsides” would be replaced with 3 yr used steers & “insides” get outside 6 yr used tires. 
Dec 2023 I replaced both steer 2018  Toyos (good looking 20k mi.) to reduce worry about steer blow-out). 

 

As far as staggering purchases of tires I have done that on this coach because I have a tag axle.  On our previous two coaches that did not have tag axles I did not stagger purchases, but then I only ran one set of tires on each having the first gasser for 6 years (one set of tires) and our second coach (first DP) for 7-years also with only one set of tires.  On our current coach over the past 17 years of ownership I would stagger purchases by purchasing drives and steers, then move my previous steers to the tag.  Then a few years later purchase another pair of steers and move the previous steers to the tag, always scrapping from the tag axle if that makes sense.  The current tire purchase is an anomaly for two reasons, first, I was changing manufacturers, which usually isn't a big deal to have different tire manufacturers on a rig as long as their not paired on a dual setup and secondly, because I got a price break at 8 tires with free shipping which negated any savings by only doing 6 tires this time.  Otherwise, I would have moved my 5-year old Michelin steer tires to the tag and purchased new Toyo tires for steers and drives as I had originally planned.  It wasn't until I ran the numbers with the price break at 8 and shipping figured in that I decided to do all eight at the same time.

Here's my thinking on the tire rotation as you mentioned.  As long as they are EXACTLY the same diameter, meaning the tread depth is spot on the same I would say that would be acceptable to interrupt a set of duals.  Also, if you can somehow make certain pressures are going to be the same on those duals.  For the most part I do not like to upset a dual pair running together unless absolutely necessary such as a roadside issue or other unavoidable reason.

Others may or may not agree but this is my reasoning.  Years ago, I read in a Bridgestone training brochure that spoke about mixing tires in a dual configuration.  Now this is quite common in running fleets but it has to be managed and cannot be just random.  Their communicated message was twofold.  First it talked about age and tread depth.  Seeing as how the inside dual takes the most abuse due to heat, they don't recommend putting older tires on the inside because they are the most overlooked and less attention is paid to them, which I can see after managing a fleet of OTR tractors and trailers for several years.  We also tracked age and tread depth precisely for our 46 tractors and when they got to a certain point they would get downgraded to trailer tires for our 235 refrigerated trailers.  We would also run recaps on the trailers as long as the casings met the proper criteria.  We would match duals only with another tire measuring the exact same.  If we didn't have one at the time, new tires were installed and the odd tire was recorded in our spreadsheet and set aside until another came about with the same measurements. 

The other message Bridgestone communicated was specifically dealing with outside circumference.  Two dual tires bolted together running down the road have no other choice than turn at the exact same RPM.  If one tire is smaller by only 5/16" in total circumference then those two tires are not going to wear the same because they cannot cover the same distance per revolution.  Just a 5/16" of tire circumference is enough for that smaller tire to be drug approx. 13' per mile.  Calculate that out and in 100k miles the smaller tire is being dragged 246 miles compared to the slightly larger tire.

Back in the late 90's when I learned that it also got me thinking about tire pressures because they can impact overall tire diameter, ie. circumference, in the same manner.  In reality, only a 5 PSI difference in tire pressures can also result in a 5/16" diameter in a large OTR tire.  This calculates out to the same scenario as the smaller tire being dragged along as having a difference in tread wear on a dual tire setup.  This is when I began running Crossfires on our first DP in 2000 and have continued to run them on our current coach.  That inside dual is going to get hotter than the outside dual and therefore the tire's diameter can change driving down the road.  The Crossfires (and Cat Eyes) work to keep the pressures the same inside to outside and therefore they are much more likely to run the same diameters and give the tires the best chance for a long and happy life.

 

Hope that makes sense, but that's my take on the matter anyways.

 

 

[zmotorsports]

 

 

I received a text from my cousin yesterday informing me that my tires had arrived via truck freight at his shop.

 

I ran and picked them up after work and dropped them off at the tire shop, then ran home loaded up the tires/wheels from the coach and dropped them off as well.  I was told they would be ready this afternoon for pickup so I hope to be able to get them installed on the coach over the weekend.  I still have the rear ride height links to replace while the drive tires are off and they are easily assessable as well as install the new Haldex air drier cartridge that is much easier to access with the curbside tag tire removed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

After arriving back home I completed the refinishing of the Balance Masters as they were looking a bit "rough".  I had sanded and painted the tag and drive axle ones a few days ago but still had the steer axle ones to complete.  The steer axles were a bit worse than the drives or tag for some reason and required a bit more sanding, so I broke out the DA and took them down to bare metal on the mounting surface and then just scuffed the outer ring like I did on the others.

 

Sanded and wiped down with Wax & Grease Remover in preparation for Eastwood's Extreme Chassis Black paint in satin finish.  This stuff works quite well for an aerosol paint in harsh environments. 

 

One down and one to go.

 

All completed and ready for installation.  I also purchased a set of new Crossfires that will go on the drive axle.  The ones I removed have been on this coach for 17 years and one of the hoses was showing signs of fraying and one of the gauges were fogged.  I contacted them about having them rebuilt/repaired but was given an option to purchase new ones at a fair price, so I went that route.  They arrived a few days ago so they will be installed along with the new tires and freshly painted Balance Masters.

 

 

Thanks for looking.

[Ivan K]

I would have expected a bit more from the balancemasters powder coating. I haven't taken my front balancemasters off this year yet but last year they were just dirty, since 2019. Will see how they compare to galvanized centramatics on the rear when I take them off one day. I see that your drive and tag balancers are the same, my tag centramatics look just like the fronts with the dish shape.

[zmotorsports]

7 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

I would have expected a bit more from the balancemasters powder coating. I haven't taken my front balancemasters off this year yet but last year they were just dirty, since 2019. Will see how they compare to galvanized centramatics on the rear when I take them off one day. I see that your drive and tag balancers are the same, my tag centramatics look just like the fronts with the dish shape.

 

In all fairness to the coating, I'm not sure the fronts were powder coated originally.  They have been in service for 24 years now.  They were on our 1991 Beaver Contessa on a Gillig chassis for the first 7 years then when I sold it I removed them and put them on our Dynasty in 2007 along with the drive axle set.  I purchased a new set for the tag axle in 2007 when we purchased the Dynasty and I replaced the drive axle set about 7 years or so ago so I really can't complain about their finish.  I don't think the fronts were powder coated back then and just painted but I could be wrong.  The tag and drive sets just needed a bit of a "scuff" after cleaning as they were in excellent condition, I just wanted to freshen the finish a bit. 

 

When I added the ones to the tag axle I could have installed the ones like the steer axle but opted to get the same as the drive axle for uniformity at the rear and a bit more centrifugal weight.  I don't think it would make a difference other than the larger flat ones have a bit more balancing ability due to their larger diameter.  On a single tag tire it's probably a moot point but that was my thinking.

[Glen-Deb]

4 hours ago, zmotorsports said:

 

As far as staggering purchases of tires I have done that on this coach because I have a tag axle.  On our previous two coaches that did not have tag axles I did not stagger purchases, but then I only ran one set of tires on each having the first gasser for 6 years (one set of tires) and our second coach (first DP) for 7-years also with only one set of tires.  On our current coach over the past 17 years of ownership I would stagger purchases by purchasing drives and steers, then move my previous steers to the tag.  Then a few years later purchase another pair of steers and move the previous steers to the tag, always scrapping from the tag axle if that makes sense.  The current tire purchase is an anomaly for two reasons, first, I was changing manufacturers, which usually isn't a big deal to have different tire manufacturers on a rig as long as their not paired on a dual setup and secondly, because I got a price break at 8 tires with free shipping which negated any savings by only doing 6 tires this time.  Otherwise, I would have moved my 5-year old Michelin steer tires to the tag and purchased new Toyo tires for steers and drives as I had originally planned.  It wasn't until I ran the numbers with the price break at 8 and shipping figured in that I decided to do all eight at the same time.

Here's my thinking on the tire rotation as you mentioned.  As long as they are EXACTLY the same diameter, meaning the tread depth is spot on the same I would say that would be acceptable to interrupt a set of duals.  Also, if you can somehow make certain pressures are going to be the same on those duals.  For the most part I do not like to upset a dual pair running together unless absolutely necessary such as a roadside issue or other unavoidable reason.

Others may or may not agree but this is my reasoning.  Years ago, I read in a Bridgestone training brochure that spoke about mixing tires in a dual configuration.  Now this is quite common in running fleets but it has to be managed and cannot be just random.  Their communicated message was twofold.  First it talked about age and tread depth.  Seeing as how the inside dual takes the most abuse due to heat, they don't recommend putting older tires on the inside because they are the most overlooked and less attention is paid to them, which I can see after managing a fleet of OTR tractors and trailers for several years.  We also tracked age and tread depth precisely for our 46 tractors and when they got to a certain point they would get downgraded to trailer tires for our 235 refrigerated trailers.  We would also run recaps on the trailers as long as the casings met the proper criteria.  We would match duals only with another tire measuring the exact same.  If we didn't have one at the time, new tires were installed and the odd tire was recorded in our spreadsheet and set aside until another came about with the same measurements. 

The other message Bridgestone communicated was specifically dealing with outside circumference.  Two dual tires bolted together running down the road have no other choice than turn at the exact same RPM.  If one tire is smaller by only 5/16" in total circumference then those two tires are not going to wear the same because they cannot cover the same distance per revolution.  Just a 5/16" of tire circumference is enough for that smaller tire to be drug approx. 13' per mile.  Calculate that out and in 100k miles the smaller tire is being dragged 246 miles compared to the slightly larger tire.

Back in the late 90's when I learned that it also got me thinking about tire pressures because they can impact overall tire diameter, ie. circumference, in the same manner.  In reality, only a 5 PSI difference in tire pressures can also result in a 5/16" diameter in a large OTR tire.  This calculates out to the same scenario as the smaller tire being dragged along as having a difference in tread wear on a dual tire setup.  This is when I began running Crossfires on our first DP in 2000 and have continued to run them on our current coach.  That inside dual is going to get hotter than the outside dual and therefore the tire's diameter can change driving down the road.  The Crossfires (and Cat Eyes) work to keep the pressures the same inside to outside and therefore they are much more likely to run the same diameters and give the tires the best chance for a long and happy life.

 

Hope that makes sense, but that's my take on the matter anyways.

 

 

Mike. Thx for providing a lot of useful info, especially about inner dual tires

[zmotorsports]

32 minutes ago, Glen-Deb said:

Mike. Thx for providing a lot of useful info, especially about inner dual tires

 

You're welcome.  Glad to hear it was helpful.

 

 

[Paul J A]

I would use POR 15 product to paint those . I also would use 11r 22.5, H,  on the drive and tag. Same diameter as 295's and will be more than adequate for the weight . They are rated greater than the axle rated carrying capacity and save big $$$'s over 295's. Truckers use them on trailers for that reason. You want a better ride, then use larger tires.  Local Truck tire distributor has been selling Kumho for 18 years, Never had a warranty claim for tire MFG. failure.

[zmotorsports]

On 3/16/2024 at 12:32 PM, Paul J A said:

I would use POR 15 product to paint those . I also would use 11r 22.5, H,  on the drive and tag. Same diameter as 295's and will be more than adequate for the weight . They are rated greater than the axle rated carrying capacity and save big $$$'s over 295's. Truckers use them on trailers for that reason. You want a better ride, then use larger tires.  Local Truck tire distributor has been selling Kumho for 18 years, Never had a warranty claim for tire MFG. failure.

 

I am very well aware that the 11R22.5 is a substitute for sizing, that is what we run and what I purchase for our fleet of OTR truck/trailers at work.  However, there wasn't much of a savings as I got these for nearly the same price as an 11R22.5 and in a 16-ply tire.  As for the POR-15, I chose not to use it in this application due to the thickness.  I didn't want to use a coating that added much thickness to the mating surfaces.

 

 

Picked up the new tires Friday afternoon but didn't get a chance to mount them on the coach yet as I had a couple clients vehicles in the shop to work on over the weekend plus a LOF service on my 2006 Silverado 2500HD.

 

 

Unloaded and awaiting cleaning and wheel polishing before installation.

 

Someone had asked about the inside of the tires so here are a couple pictures of the insides of the Michelin take-offs.

 

 

They look brand new inside, but then again, I've been using the "good" air in these.  🤣 

 

 

Old tires being delivered to their new owner yesterday afternoon.  

 

I'll post up more pictures once their washed, wheels polished and installed on the coach.  

[jacwjames]

I've been following another post on IRV2 about a steer tire failure, fortunately it was caught while parked. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/holy-cow-betcha-never-seen-this-before-639706.html

Looks nasty and the OPer swears it was not driven with low air pressure.  It was a 7 year old Yokohama tire. 

Hard to believe but it highlights the importance of good inspections. 

I just crawled under my coach last week to do a lube job but I also used a good work light to inspect everything I could lay my eyes on.  Definitely going to be keeping a close eye on the tires. 

[zmotorsports]

10 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I've been following another post on IRV2 about a steer tire failure, fortunately it was caught while parked. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/holy-cow-betcha-never-seen-this-before-639706.html

Looks nasty and the OPer swears it was not driven with low air pressure.  It was a 7 year old Yokohama tire. 

Hard to believe but it highlights the importance of good inspections. 

I just crawled under my coach last week to do a lube job but I also used a good work light to inspect everything I could lay my eyes on.  Definitely going to be keeping a close eye on the tires. 

 

THAT (highlighted in BOLD) is the best formula for success Jim, regardless of manufacturer or age.  This goes well beyond tires though.  I have preached this for decades now to become up close and personal with your rigs and keep an eye on things.  SO many things can be kept at a minimal cost and severity by just crawling under it on a normal basis and putting eyes on components.  I can't tell you how many things I have seen over the years could have been avoided had the owner just crawled under it once in a while with a flashlight.

[96 EVO]

I would have been scooting right out from under that rig as soon as I seen that crack 😮!

Pictures can be taken when the wheel is off the coach!

[jacwjames]

30 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

I would have been scooting right out from under that rig as soon as I seen that crack 😮!

Pictures can be taken when the wheel is off the coach!

He said in his last post that he removed the tires & wheels twice a year to polish the rims.  Hmmmmm

He also said that he uses a TST TPMS with the flow through sensors BUT that the sensors are too long for him to add air without removing and that when he does his air pressure ends up lower then what he'd like. 

I have a TST TPMS but not the flow through sensors.  When I add air I always go a little higher and then check what the readout says, if needed I unscrew and let a little out until I get to my settings.  I run 10 psi higher in the front and about 5 psi higher in the back, I think it's better to be over inflated then under.  I have the alarms set at recommended pressure, but the only problem with that is if I go from warm E TN weather to cold temps I may get an alarm in the AM, pain in the butt when you are asleep.  If I'm going to be in cool weather I'll adjust my pressures up.  Bottom line is I don't want to run my tires under inflated. 

[zmotorsports]

I took a few hours over the last couple of nights to polish up the wheels after having the new tires mounted.

They were in decent condition and just needed a "tune-up" polish to bring the luster back.  I generally run around them once a year by hand with some Busch's Aluminum Polish but time got away from me last year and I didn't get to them.  I figured with the tires/wheels being off the coach it would be easier to do them now vs. after installing so I took a little time over the past two nights to address them.  The worst part was some hard water spots that I couldn't get off from a campground sprinkler hitting them last summer.  They required a bit more than just running around them by hand this time.

The wheels aren't in what I would call "pristine" condition due to the original owners putting some nasty gouges in them before we bought the coach 17 years ago, but I feel each time I run around them with polish they get just a little better.

Although personally, I think the Alcoa's polish up just a little better than these Accurides do.  I had Alcoa's on our previous coach and they looked like chrome they shined up so nice and then an annual tune-up kept them looking that way.  I wish these looked like the ones on our last coach but this is what I have to work with.

This first picture shows the left side not polished and the right side of the wheel after polishing to view the slight difference.  Not a huge difference but it was a noticeable change afterwards.

The remainder of the pictures were all after polishing.  I ran out of time last night to wash them so I will have to give them a good scrubbing to remove some of the polish splatter and dirt from the mounting before I install them on the coach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for looking.

[Bill R]

Mike - they still look really good, shine up the rubber and they'll look even better.

[zmotorsports]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:40 PM, Bill R said:

Mike - they still look really good, shine up the rubber and they'll look even better.

 

Yeah, I hadn't washed them in the above pictures yet and I don't put any chemicals on the tires. 

I did manage to get the steers installed and torqued on over the weekend but that's about as far as I got due to a couple other tasks I had to do in the shop.

 

Edited March 25 by zmotorsports