Nothing Works

[gwtkcobb]

We had our 'ring and pinion' (?) freeze/lock up and when it broke loose it made an awful jerk and thump.  After that nothing electrical in the coach works.  Fuses/breakers have been checked and none were found (of the ones we found to check) to be tripped/blown.  Even with the generator running nothing works.  We have not connected to shore power yet to see what, in anything, works.  What might it be?  Where do we look for what it might be?  In other words, any thoughts or ideas?  Thank you, Gary

[Dwight Lindsey]

Gary:

Here are some ideas:

Check the breakers on your inverter.   On our Magnum, they are push button breakers.

On my 2005 Knight, there is a "high current" breaker on the sidewall of the battery bay.   To my eye it's an unusual breaker.  There's a rod that flips out and needs to be pressed back in to re-set.

Make sure that the "salesman's switch" near the light switch by the entry door is not turned off, which would shut off all 12 volt power.

On our generator, there's a breaker on the generator.  If that is tripped, the generator runs, but no power gets to the coach.

Check the transfer switch, which will be near the power cord entry into the coach.  On our Knight it's in the roadside rear bay.

Dwight

[Larry H]

If it is set up like me 2001 Dynasty, start back at the main electrical panel (passenger side rear) and check voltage on each side of the chassis and coach cut off switches. Then go to the front electrical panel and see in you have voltage at the nuts where electricity enters that compartment. Large cable carries power from rear to front and on mine I lost all chassis power when one of those nuts became lose. May or may not be your issue..

[Dr4Film]

For 120 VAC start at the Auto Transfer Switch where both shore or generator power comes from as it makes it way to your main power panel. For 12 VDC check all of the typical shut-off switches like the rotary Battery Disconnect Switch, the Battery Cut-off Solenoid controlled by the "salesman switch" at the entry door, etc.

Do you have an Inverter/charger onboard? If so is it on?

[Frank McElroy]

 

9 hours ago, gwtkcobb said:

We had our 'ring and pinion' (?) freeze/lock up and when it broke loose it made an awful jerk and thump.  After that nothing electrical in the coach works.  Fuses/breakers have been checked and none were found (of the ones we found to check) to be tripped/blown.  Even with the generator running nothing works.  We have not connected to shore power yet to see what, in anything, works.  What might it be?  Where do we look for what it might be?  In other words, any thoughts or ideas?  Thank you, Gary

When you say you had your " 'ring and pinion' (?) freeze/lock up and when it broke loose it made an awful jerk and thump" what do you mean.  Were the rear brakes rusted to the drums and they broke loose or do you mean you actually had a failed rear end or a broken u-joint?  If it was the latter and the drive shaft was loose then I would first look for damaged wiring hit by the drive shaft.

[W7BE_Bob]

My first guess is that the batteries were disconnected for service which is common. If you have a salesman switch try it first. Check for loose cables, hopefully you have pictures for reference. Use a voltmeter or test light connected to FRAME GROUND. DO NOT use a cable for ground in case it's a disconnected ground wire. Check for 12V at the battery, then salesman solenoid, fuses etc to the power panels etc. Continue to use a long wire to frame ground. 

 

[Tom Cherry]

On 8/2/2020 at 11:12 PM, gwtkcobb said:

We had our 'ring and pinion' (?) freeze/lock up and when it broke loose it made an awful jerk and thump.  After that nothing electrical in the coach works.  Fuses/breakers have been checked and none were found (of the ones we found to check) to be tripped/blown.  Even with the generator running nothing works.  We have not connected to shore power yet to see what, in anything, works.  What might it be?  Where do we look for what it might be?  In other words, any thoughts or ideas?  Thank you, Gary

Many have asked this.....and you have not responded.  When you say ELECTRICAL.....what does NOT work....

The 115   VAC circuits (Microwave, wall outlets, HVAC, etc)?  OR

The interior lights and such.  That is 12 VDC Power and comes from the House Batteries.

IF you ran the Genny, then you should have had 120 VAC INTO the ATS and then switched or distributed to the Main Panel and then to the various other components (Inverter....which has its OWN ATS and passes through the power).  NOW, if you do NOT have 12 VDC power, then the AC's will not work.  They need BOTH sources.

SO....folks need some more facts to determine WHERE to point you.

If it is the interior lights....then odds are, unless you have replaced the Salesman's Relay, you have a faulty one.  They can be bypassed with a short #4 12" cable from NAPA.  OR, you just put BOTH cables on one lug is you have enough slack.  VERY few folks here use that feature and all it is....is a failure waiting to happen.  

You also need GOOD 12 VDC power to power the Thermostats and also the Refer (if you have a gas absoption unit.  

NOW, if you do not have 115 VAC AC, then you CAN try to plug into power.  The ATS SHOULD be normally CLOSED and passing through the SHORE.  When the ATS senses or measures Voltage coming from the Genny, it automatically SWITCHES to GENNY....even though you may be plugged in.

The Inverter has an ATS in it....so it if Senses or sees 120 VAC (Genny or Shore), it passes through the voltage and you have 115 VAC.

You need to understand how the systems work in order to isolate or trouble shoot the proper component.  

Let us know WHERE and WHAT type of Voltage you are missing.....then folks can home in on how to help you.

It would ALSO be nice to know how "Electrically" skilled you are.  If you know how to use a VOM for AC and DC and also for Resistance, then they can provide detailed steps.

Thanks....

[gwtkcobb]

OK...to help fill in some maybe unknowns.  We have not connected to shore power, other than getting a campsite we have no way to do so.  We have run the generator with no results.  The switch is on at the entry door/steps every time things have been checked.  I have health issues and cannot go to the motor-home so my son goes and he is not electorally literate but has checked the breakers but not fuses, he's afraid to touch/do much anything.  The nearest location to take her to is over an hour away and with this virus stuff we're not even sure what all they're doing as their Web site is not real clear.  Seriously considering just selling the moho.  Thank you.

[Dwight Lindsey]

Gary:  Even if you're going to sell the motorhome, you need to get things working.

It's probably something simple or at least easy to figure out.

We still don't have much information from you about what the problem is.   We'll certainly try to help, but we need more information.

You can start the generator, correct?  So you have some battery juice on one of your batteries.  Which battery bank the generator starts from does not seem to be standard. . ., so if you can start the generator you have a charge on one of your batteries Has your son looked at the generator to find the circuit breaker on the generator?   If not, have him flip that off and back on and start the generator again?

If the ceiling lights don't come on when the generator is running, that does not necessarily mean you're not getting 110 volts to the house, it's a separate circuit.  Has your son tested the 110 volt system by trying to run the microwave or by plugging something into a 110 volt outlet?

You can start the motorhome engine, correct?  So that means you have a charge on your chassis battery bank

The ceiling lights in the coach don't come on?  If the ceiling lights don't come on, that means you're not getting 12 volts to the house.   That could be the salesman's switch near the entry door, or the relay that it controls in one of your run bays.  With a volt meter it's easy to diagnose that.

When I lost all power in our 2005 Knight, it was a high amp breaker in the battery bay.  That breaker in our coach does not look like a household breaker. Your son should check the battery bay carefully.  and follow the red power cable to the side wall and see if it passes through a box with a little rod that's flipped out.  Pressing that rod back in fixed the problem for me.

You don't necessarily need an RV mechanic for this.  Anyone with a volt meter and a little knowledge about how to use it can figure this out.

Dwight 

[Guest Ray Davis]

Gary ,  are you in So Carolina ?  When I looked up Calhoun Falls , So Carolina popped up .

Maybe someone on the group that is near you could come and help .

Often these problems are something simple if you can find it .

The ring gear and pinon can certainly break but by far the most common problem you described

is the rear brake drums rusting and the shoes sticking to the drums , happens often on here .

Does the coach move now that things are loosened up ?    If it moves that part is probably ok .

As mentioned earlier check the breaker on the generator first .  Your son needs to extend the generator

so he can see the start switch right there on the front drivers side there he will see the breaker too , it is the smaller one .

The gen can start and run but not supply any power if that breaker is tripped or defective . 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Ray Davis

[Tom Cherry]

22 hours ago, gwtkcobb said:

OK...to help fill in some maybe unknowns.  We have not connected to shore power, other than getting a campsite we have no way to do so.  We have run the generator with no results.  The switch is on at the entry door/steps every time things have been checked.  I have health issues and cannot go to the motor-home so my son goes and he is not electorally literate but has checked the breakers but not fuses, he's afraid to touch/do much anything.  The nearest location to take her to is over an hour away and with this virus stuff we're not even sure what all they're doing as their Web site is not real clear.  Seriously considering just selling the moho.  Thank you.

PLEASE....back to Basics....

Do you mean that you have NO 120 VAC power inside the Motor Home?   We need to know that.  If the Genny is running, you MAY have a TRIPPED circuit breaker....

SO....please answer this.  Does the Microwave or ANY outlet work (use a Phone Charger or whatever to test it).  If you have NO 120 VAC power and the Genny is running.....

THEN THE FIRST thing......open the PDF that I attached.  That is from the manual.....assuming you have an Onan 8 KW.  Have your son look at the genny.  All he has to do is pull OUT the genny and loos at it.....  If the Genny's MAIN circuit breaker is tripped or OFF.....you will have NO power even though the Genny is running.

THIS IS IMPORTANT....help us out here.

Now, the Switch at the Door.  That is for 12 VDC power only.  The interior lights.  It has NOTHING to do with the 120 VAC.  If the power issue is 12 VDC and Lights....then you probably have a bad Salesman's Switch.  Shoot a picture of the electrical panel and folks will help you there.

We can't fix something that we don't understand WHAT the problem is and so far, all you have said is POWER.....which is it....120 VAC or all the receptacles or the microwave.....or is the 12 VDC power for the interior lights.

Thanks....

Onan Control Panel Circuit Breaker.pdf

[gwtkcobb]

Alright...yes, in SC and if anyone is in the Anderson, Greenwood, McCormick, SC or Elberton, GA area we are in storage right across from Calhoun Falls State Park.

We have not connected to shore power as of yet because we know no one to go to that has a hook up and the CFSP won't just let us take whatever time it would take to go to a site, hook up, and check...have to get (pay for) a site for the night.

The ring and pinion issue has been taken care of and the motor runs and moves just fine.

The microwave is the ONLY thing that lights up.

The generator runs and the breaker has been tripped off and back on.

The salesman switch at the entry door has been on for any/all tests.

Attached are photos my son took for me ( at this time my health does not permit me to go to the motor home).  He has absolutely no knowledge of using any test meters...and my knowledge is only very basic, at best.

In the battery bay he sees no type of any kind of breaker, knife-type breaker/switch, or anything.

There is an inverter but not sure where it is located or if it is on or off.  Which should it be at all times?

Yes, coach starts and runs.  The generator starts and runs (breaker was tripped off and switched back on).  Nothing works.

Yes, even if selling this needs to be fixed first.

I tried to cover all previous questions; however might have missed some.  It makes it harder since I cannot get there to look at it myself...may try this weekend but will just have to see how I'm doing...you know, sending a 20 year old who doesn't have his whole heart into it doesn't help either...at least he is trying some...lol...

mohobatterypics.zip

Edited August 7, 2020 by gwtkcobb

[Dwight Lindsey]

Gary:

Those pictures show that your generator is running and giving you 110 volt power.  They also show that you are charging the battery at 13.5 volts or 14 volts (two different pictures at slightly different times).  All of that seems fine.

So, I conclude that your generator is running correctly.  The breaker on the generator is not the problem, since you're getting 110 volt power at the panel in your picture.  You are charging the batteries.

If the microwave works, then you're getting 110 volt power to the microwave.  If you don't have 110 volts at wall outlets, then perhaps it's a tripped GFI

You may have a GFI outlet or a GFI breaker.  Your son should look around, perhaps in the bathroom, for an outlet with push buttons.  These are Ground Fault Indicator outlets that protect against electrocution if you should drop a hair dryer in the bathtub, or similar accidents.  If the GFI outlet is tripped, many of the wall outlets will not work.

If you're 12 volt ceiling lights don't work, I'd look at the relay that the salesman's switch controls.  It will be in a "run bay".  I don't know where the run bay or bays are in your Dynasty.  In my Knight the run bay is roadside front.

Your battery bay is more filled with batteries than my battery bay and I don't see any place that a high amp breaker could be bolted to the wall.  The fact that the batteries seem to be charging leads me to think that a high amp breaker is not the issue.

I would definitely find the inverter and make sure there are not tripped breakers on the inverter.

Dwight

 

[michaelivan]

I had the same issue in the past.  Traced the issue to the relay  that Dwight mentioned.  On my Monaco it is in the power bay on the passenger side.  One fix is to bypass the relay and direct connect the power rather than replace the relay.  That relay has been an issue for owners for years and is mentioned on several different user groups.

Edited August 7, 2020 by michaelivan

[W7BE_Bob]

My inverter has 2 output CBs, one is dedicated to the MW and the second powers 18 plugs (NOT a typo). The first plug is a GFCI and feeds all other plugs, it could be tripped. The inverter CSs are small button type and tripped is not obvious. 

Hate to say this but those batteries show a lack of maintenance. Has the water level been checked? Son will need to be schooled to detect exposed plates (batteries compromised) and then filled to the correct level with DISTILLED water only. 

Maybe you need to get a mobile tech to resolve the issues and make sure both banks are being charged.

 

[Tom Cherry]

On 8/7/2020 at 8:39 AM, W7BE_Bob said:

My inverter has 2 output CBs, one is dedicated to the MW and the second powers 18 plugs (NOT a typo). The first plug is a GFCI and feeds all other plugs, it could be tripped. The inverter CSs are small button type and tripped is not obvious. 

Hate to say this but those batteries show a lack of maintenance. Has the water level been checked? Son will need to be schooled to detect exposed plates (batteries compromised) and then filled to the correct level with DISTILLED water only. 

Maybe you need to get a mobile tech to resolve the issues and make sure both banks are being charged.

 

Bob,

He does not have the Magnum like your system.  Yes, you are correct.  I have the SAME issue.  But,  your suggestion will not work for his issues....

Please let others that have similar MH's assist....

Yes, you are correct....the batteries need a little PM....but that is not the problem.

Thanks,

[Tom Cherry]

On 8/7/2020 at 3:01 AM, gwtkcobb said:

Alright...yes, in SC and if anyone is in the Anderson, Greenwood, McCormick, SC or Elberton, GA area we are in storage right across from Calhoun Falls State Park.

We have not connected to shore power as of yet because we know no one to go to that has a hook up and the CFSP won't just let us take whatever time it would take to go to a site, hook up, and check...have to get (pay for) a site for the night.

The ring and pinion issue has been taken care of and the motor runs and moves just fine.

The microwave is the ONLY thing that lights up.

The generator runs and the breaker has been tripped off and back on.

The salesman switch at the entry door has been on for any/all tests.

Attached are photos my son took for me ( at this time my health does not permit me to go to the motor home).  He has absolutely no knowledge of using any test meters...and my knowledge is only very basic, at best.

In the battery bay he sees no type of any kind of breaker, knife-type breaker/switch, or anything.

There is an inverter but not sure where it is located or if it is on or off.  Which should it be at all times?

Yes, coach starts and runs.  The generator starts and runs (breaker was tripped off and switched back on).  Nothing works.

Yes, even if selling this needs to be fixed first.

I tried to cover all previous questions; however might have missed some.  It makes it harder since I cannot get there to look at it myself...may try this weekend but will just have to see how I'm doing...you know, sending a 20 year old who doesn't have his whole heart into it doesn't help either...at least he is trying some...lol...

mohobatterypics.zip 4.26 MB · 24 downloads

Gary,

As Dwight tried to help.....let's try to be a little more specific....   I understand you and your son's situation....but we still need some simple things answered...

First.  You have NOT told us if you have an INTERIOR lights.  You need to tell us YES or NO.....do you have interior lights....

Now WHY is this important.  You Interior lights are 12VDC and come from your House Batteries.  That means that you may have one or more issues.....  SO.....again....12 VDC Lights are ON or OFF.

Now for your son.  You need to get out the manual and find the section that deals with the Battery Cut OFF Switches.  You will have TWO.  One is marked HOUSE and the other is marked CHASSIS.  

If the MH was in a shop for repairs, they MAY have turned OFF the HOUSE Battery Cut Off Switch.  Have your son find BOTH switches.  They should be in a compartment near where the batteries are located.  Make sure BOTH Switches are ON.

IF they are, and you do NOT have interior lights....then you most LIKELY have a FAILED Salesman Relay.  That is NOT the switch near the door.  That is a big sucker....the switch on the door supplies power to open and close the relay.    If this Relay is shot or broken.....MOST people do NOT replace it.  Tell the Tech that you want to BYPASS or eliminate it.  He will know what to do.  That is cheap compared to maybe a $300 - $400 total to remove and replace a part that is not essential.  WHY.....you should ask.  It was a STUPID idea.  It was for the RV salesmen to turn OFF all the interior lights and not have to go into the Motorhome.  I will state that 90% or maybe more of the experienced Monaco or HR owners that understand the function have disconnected or bypassed the relay and do not replace or repair it.

 

NOW>.....ABOUT THE 120 VAC Power.  You need, again, to get OUT your manual.  Your son needs to read the section on the INVERTER.  HERE is how that works.....so this explains things.

Your Inverter takes 12VDC Battery Power and inverts it to 120 VAC or AC House Power.  There are TWO circuits or Outputs on the Inverter.  ONE is wired directly to the Microwave Outlet.  The fact that you have the Microwave "lit up" tells us TWO things....

You also need to read this and understand.  The Inverter (all of them....not just your Trace or Magnum) have a control board.  IF that circuit board is getting 115 VAC (household power).....from being plugged in or from the Generator, then there is an Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) on the Inverter.  That switch CLOSES.  SO, the incoming power (Shore or Genny) is "transferred" or switched to the TWO OUTGOING Circuits.  Therefore, the Trace (inverter) appears to be working.  

NOW......Remember, there are TWO circuits.  One goes directly to the Microwave.  That means that circuit is good.

BUT.....ALL OTHER interior outlets are (probably) on a Ground Fault Circuit Interruption device.  By DEVICE....I mean that you will have a Funny Looking Circuit Breaker in the Panel or somewhere.  OR....you will have a funny looking Receptacle in the Motor Home.  The GFCI Receptacle (if that is the one) is "OPEN" or TRIPPED>  Your son can  Google resetting a GFCI Receptacle on Youtube and that shows HOW to do it.  You just PUSH a button.  There are no tools and you don''t have to take it apart or get inside or see any wiring.

NOW.....if that does NOT work.....then, your son is going to have to LOCATE the TRACE inverter.  There MAY be two push button or PIN type breakers on it.  You have TWO circuits...  You MAY have TWO Pin Breakers.  The one for the HOUSE outlets may be tripped.  He will have to PUSH IT IN to reset it.  Again.  These are on the outside of the inverter cabinet.  he does NOT need any tools, except maybe a flashlight to see them and read.  Since you have power to the microwave, we know that you have good incoming AC.  

That is all we can do.  If your son can not fix this or reset the or turn on the switches, then you will need to find a mobile RV Tech and your son will need to meet him there and tell him what the problems are and let him fix it.....otherwise, take it to a good RV shop.  

I realize your limitations.....but the folks here can not tell you exactly WHERE everything is or what to do.  Your Owners Manual is the best resource.....and if you read what has been written, then you  should begin to understand how this works...

GOOD LUCK...

[michaelivan]

First thing I would do would be to find the Power control cabinet.  That is where the disconnects are located. Then I would check the relay.  You should be able to hear a click when flipping the salesman switch if the relay is working properly. 

[Dwight Lindsey]

Gary:

In the first picture that Mike posted, you can see the HI-AMP circuit breaker at the top of the picture, near the center.  In my coach this circuit breaker is in my battery bay.  In your coach it may well be in the "Power control cabinet" that mike references.  Your son should look for the HI-AMP circuit breaker, as in Mike's photo, and make sure it's not tripped.

And check the relay as Mike suggested.  If your 12 volt systems, like the ceiling lights, are not working, that relay is suspect.

Dwight

 

 

[gwtkcobb]

Thank you for your replies...for right now to make a short answer...the interior lights (none of them) work.   More answers to come when I'm up to it.  

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, gwtkcobb said:

Thank you for your replies...for right now to make a short answer...the interior lights (none of them) work.   More answers to come when I'm up to it.  

Simple advice.  Since you nor your son appear not to have the expertise or electrical skill set....find a Tech.  Dealer or Mobile.

Let them troubleshoot.  Odds are the 120 VAC (outlets) is just a simple matter of finding the circuit breaker on the Inverter and resetting it.  SIMPLE and CHEAP.

12 VDC   or the LIGHTS....  Odds are, your Salesman Switch Relay is toast.  Bypassing it is cheap and easy.  Takes all of 5 minutes or maybe a $10 part from NAPA.  You do NOT need it.  Do not be "Hornswaggled" and pay to have it replaced.  Pay to remove it or bypass it.

That is the most cost effective and realistic solution.

IF there are deeper problems, you will have to decide.  For the interim.....make sure you run the Genny for a few hours every week or so to keep your House Batteries charged.  Start and run the engine to keep the Chassis batteries up.  NOT doing so will cost you more $$.

Good Luck...  Let us know....

[Rob and Amy Harper]

Or put a Trick-L-Start or Amp-L--Start in so that running the genny or connecting to shore power will charge the house and chassis batteries all at once.

I've had both issues. No overhead lights, 12v, bypassed relay for salesman switch. Last week, no 120v or 240v - no A/C, no fridge, no microwave... had to replace transfer switch.

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, Rob and Amy Harper said:

Or put a Trick-L-Start or Amp-L--Start in so that running the genny or connecting to shore power will charge the house and chassis batteries all at once.

I've had both issues. No overhead lights, 12v, bypassed relay for salesman switch. Last week, no 120v or 240v - no A/C, no fridge, no microwave... had to replace transfer switch.

Fascinating that you lost an ATS after 2 years.  We have folks that still on their original 2000 or so ATS.  NOW, we have had failures of the ITOA's that were a design issue, but after putting in the recommended ESCO. 

Your comment is a generic  solution....but may not be related to the issues here.  The OP is a little sketchy on the info.  That causes a lot of Generic, and sometimes misinformed or counterproductive replies....  That is why we ask that folks with similar rigs or similar problems for those years and those models take the lead on the trouble shooting.

This is what we have gleaned.......

The Genny Starts.  Presumably, the Genny is cranked OFF the House....but that far back....one does NOT know...  The older models were a mixed bag and sometimes an Elkhart MH would be different from an Oregon MH.....or close.....like "Which Bank cranks the Genny?".  OR, there is a Slide Lock Out relay so my slides will not work with the Ignition ON.....and then next year, the SAME MH does not have that....  THESE are the reasons....

The Genny, when running, only supplies voltage to ONE of the TWO (presumably) 120 AC circuits.  The Microwave is blinking....which MAY mean that one of the two circuits works and that there MAY be a circuit breaker on the Inverter that is tripped.

The folks that looked at the various pictures he posted seem to be of the agreement that the "Genny" and the AC side look fine....from the readings and the indicator lights.

IT has taken a long time just to determine that the OP's definition of "Nothing Works" appears to be AC related....but not a total lack of AC.

The MH appears, based on his comments, to start OK as he has it "Fixed....when the Ring/Pinion broke".

We have not been advised if he has 12 VDC Power to the interior lights.  He has "Cycled" the door switch and that switch WORKS....but we have NO idea on whether he has 12 VDC power and if the Salesman switch is the the probable cause.

If is VERY difficult for folks to help that understand the causes and such and to ask for more simple answers and details....and then not to get any input....

Sometimes generic answers not related to the actual problem will confuse and exacerbate the real solution....

Thanks. for understanding....

[Rob and Amy Harper]

My ATS was 15 years old, not 2. :)

I believe it is really uncommon for them to fail, but my poor RV has been through a lot over the last few months.

On these coaches it's a learning process for sure. This is my second motor home and I also have a travel trailer, been around boats all my life, family had RVs when I lived at home, but the Monaco systems are FAR more sophisticated than anything I've had before.

What learned is to look at the exact issue - Do I have DC and no AC, AC and no DC, or is everything down. One we have those answers, it becomes far easier to hone in on the issue.

[Tom Cherry]

56 minutes ago, Rob and Amy Harper said:

My ATS was 15 years old, not 2. 🙂

I believe it is really uncommon for them to fail, but my poor RV has been through a lot over the last few months.

On these coaches it's a learning process for sure. This is my second motor home and I also have a travel trailer, been around boats all my life, family had RVs when I lived at home, but the Monaco systems are FAR more sophisticated than anything I've had before.

What learned is to look at the exact issue - Do I have DC and no AC, AC and no DC, or is everything down. One we have those answers, it becomes far easier to hone in on the issue.

My math was based on your current ride....so much for an assumption....LOL....