DETROIT DIESEL WON'T START

[waterskier_1]

Coach ran fine 2 weeks ago.  Went to start this morning, and seemed like dead batteries...surprising since on charger.  Volt meter showed about 11 volts, and should have been 14 volts.  Checked batteries and found loose wing nut on one of the batteries.  Jumped from fully charged house batteries to chassis batteries, and also put battery charger on. Went to try starting again, and starter spins fine, but no fire.  Also noted that Voltmeter doesn't move (shows no voltage).  Checked schematics, and since fuel gauge works, the voltmeter gets power from same wire.  Haven't disassembled dash.  Noticed that Aladdin shows XX.X volts for Chassis battery.  Obviously where ever it is sensing voltage, there is none.  All fuses show good, don't have a schematic for where Aladdin connects.  Also, don't have a wiring diagram for the DD Series 60, only ISM.  Everywhere I check, I have voltage as should be.  I'm suspecting the fuel cutoff but don't know where it is, physically or on a schematic, so can't check.  As last resort, disconnected the chassis batteries for about 10 minutes, just to see if something would reset.  I do suspect that the chassis voltage dropped well below 10 volts when I first attempted to start.  Any suggestions?

[vito.a]

Sure sounds like you are on the right track. I agree you are not getting +12v to portions of your system including the fuel shut off. 

Another thing to try is the Boost switch on you drivers side console.  It ties the chassis and coach batteries (provided you Big Boy solenoid is working).  

I would start by testing the voltages on both sides of the Intellitec Big Boy isolator relay located in the rear run box.  These are notorious for the electrodes getting carbon build up and then your chassis batteries will not charge while plugged in.  If necessary, you can remove and disassemble it and clean the contacts (or replace it).  Rebuild instructions attached.  

Then the next step is to charge the chassis batteries up to 13.8v (or replace them).  

If that doesn't get you back on track I would start looking for a bad relay or blown fuse.  

Best of luck!

Big Boy Relay rebuild instructions.pdf

Edited November 4, 2020 by vito.a

[waterskier_1]

I have the coach running.  I'm at a loss as to this event.  I called my local shop owner and he came by with his electronic scanners.  I told him about the lack of voltage showing on my dash voltmeter and the Aladdin, but that I checked all I could and found proper voltage everywhere.  His scanner didn't recognize my engine, and he had to put data in manually.  He then removed the intake to the air filter and while I was holding the throttle down in the cab, he squirted ether (or some starting fluid) into the air cleaner, and it fired up but only ran as he would squirt more in the air cleaner - clearly it was not getting fuel.  Next the checked fuel at the fuel filter closest to the engine (I always get primary and secondary mixed up).  There was fuel there.  He said he didn't think there was an electric fuel shutoff, but instead on DD Series 60's it's all done by the computer.  So he consider the computer (ECU) was not getting power.  He went through my RRB, and found a slot for a second ENGINE fuse (5A) that was unoccupied.  I've never seen a fuse in there before, and can't imagine how it could "fall" out while sitting in my  driveway.  He put a fuse in, and it "fired" right up upon craning about 2 seconds.  This really surprised me!  I'm an electronics engineer and I missed this.  That was yesterday.  Today I went through all the wiring diagrams included with the coach.  Neither this fuse or even the Printed Wiring Board (PWB - Circuit Board) were listed.  This PWB was not even shown in the RRB diagram of components!  I'm attaching a copy of picture I took, showing the board outlined in Blue, and the fuse that was missing, shown in Red.  Has anyone seen this PWB before?  I'd love to find documentation on it.  I'm also a such a loss as to how I could have lost this fuse - if it was ever there.  If I had documentation, I could confirm that this fuse indeed would cause the issue, but without that, I'm still wondering if it's coincidental.  

Additionally, I have zero documentation regarding wiring to/from within the DD60 engine.  I have a bit of info for the Cummins ISX, but nothing for Detroit Diesel.  If anyone has any documentation (wiring type, not mechanical breakdown) I'd really appreciate it if you would send me a copy.  Another thing I found, while scouring my wiring diagrams, is some of the connectors I wanted to check for voltage, were annotated NOT EXEC, but I never found any for the Executive.  I found some for NAV ONLY, and SIG ONLY, but none for EXEC ONLY.  I'm not sure that I could even access these connectors, they just happened to be in the circuit flow I was tracing and I identified as possible check points.  

Really curious what some of you with Detroit Diesels or Executives in the mid 2000's might think (Mine is a 2005 Exec).

Unknown PWB.pdf

[Bob Nodine]

15 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

I have the coach running.  I'm at a loss as to this event.  I called my local shop owner and he came by with his electronic scanners.  I told him about the lack of voltage showing on my dash voltmeter and the Aladdin, but that I checked all I could and found proper voltage everywhere.  His scanner didn't recognize my engine, and he had to put data in manually.  He then removed the intake to the air filter and while I was holding the throttle down in the cab, he squirted ether (or some starting fluid) into the air cleaner, and it fired up but only ran as he would squirt more in the air cleaner - clearly it was not getting fuel.  Next the checked fuel at the fuel filter closest to the engine (I always get primary and secondary mixed up).  There was fuel there.  He said he didn't think there was an electric fuel shutoff, but instead on DD Series 60's it's all done by the computer.  So he consider the computer (ECU) was not getting power.  He went through my RRB, and found a slot for a second ENGINE fuse (5A) that was unoccupied.  I've never seen a fuse in there before, and can't imagine how it could "fall" out while sitting in my  driveway.  He put a fuse in, and it "fired" right up upon craning about 2 seconds.  This really surprised me!  I'm an electronics engineer and I missed this.  That was yesterday.  Today I went through all the wiring diagrams included with the coach.  Neither this fuse or even the Printed Wiring Board (PWB - Circuit Board) were listed.  This PWB was not even shown in the RRB diagram of components!  I'm attaching a copy of picture I took, showing the board outlined in Blue, and the fuse that was missing, shown in Red.  Has anyone seen this PWB before?  I'd love to find documentation on it.  I'm also a such a loss as to how I could have lost this fuse - if it was ever there.  If I had documentation, I could confirm that this fuse indeed would cause the issue, but without that, I'm still wondering if it's coincidental.  

Additionally, I have zero documentation regarding wiring to/from within the DD60 engine.  I have a bit of info for the Cummins ISX, but nothing for Detroit Diesel.  If anyone has any documentation (wiring type, not mechanical breakdown) I'd really appreciate it if you would send me a copy.  Another thing I found, while scouring my wiring diagrams, is some of the connectors I wanted to check for voltage, were annotated NOT EXEC, but I never found any for the Executive.  I found some for NAV ONLY, and SIG ONLY, but none for EXEC ONLY.  I'm not sure that I could even access these connectors, they just happened to be in the circuit flow I was tracing and I identified as possible check points.  

Really curious what some of you with Detroit Diesels or Executives in the mid 2000's might think (Mine is a 2005 Exec).

Unknown PWB.pdf 406.33 kB · 6 downloads

Rick,

David Pratt, the owner of the forum, owned a 2005 Exec with the Detroit engine for many years and is quite knowledgeable of that coach. Maybe he can shed some light on the issue.

 

[georgecederholm]

Rick,

I will check to see if I have any pictures from various projects that show this board, but I don’t recall it, or an “engine” fuse, specifically. The usual place for fuses like that is the series of ones in individual fuse holders that are lined up in the engine compartment, just above the chassis batteries. Those were the ones Monaco needed in place so they could drive the bare chassis between plants, before all the circuits were even installed.

In terms of the schematics, are you saying that the diagram book you received with the Coach doesn’t have Exec drawings, or that you’re working from other source documents? I (phone) scanned my schematics several years ago. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g3gymczoqz48599/2005 Exec Schematics Scanned 2017.pdf?dl=0

Haven’t looked in that file yet but will do so now...

[waterskier_1]

38 minutes ago, georgecederholm said:

Rick,

I will check to see if I have any pictures from various projects that show this board, but I don’t recall it, or an “engine” fuse, specifically. The usual place for fuses like that is the series of ones in individual fuse holders that are lined up in the engine compartment, just above the chassis batteries. Those were the ones Monaco needed in place so they could drive the bare chassis between plants, before all the circuits were even installed.

In terms of the schematics, are you saying that the diagram book you received with the Coach doesn’t have Exec drawings, or that you’re working from other source documents? I (phone) scanned my schematics several years ago. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g3gymczoqz48599/2005 Exec Schematics Scanned 2017.pdf?dl=0

Haven’t looked in that file yet but will do so now...

George, as I look more closely at this mystery circuit board, I see it is screen printed as "Intelliitec Fuse PCB".  It appears to be no more that just that - a PCB with places for 6 fuses, and associated LEDs and connectors for the wires the fuses are in series with.  I don't think (other than what might be needed to drive the LED Fuse Indicators) there is any active circuitry.  It's merely a fancy "fuse block".  Mine is labeled for "VIM", "SOLAR", "SPARE", "SPARE", "5A ENGINE", and "30A ENGINE".  Mine was missing the 5A ENGINE fuse.  I have no idea how it might have worked before, if it ever had a fuse, and if it did, where it went.  I am concerned because I don't want this fuse insertion to just be coincidental to the coach starting.  I also wanted to check exactly where these ENGINE fuses went (or to what they supplied power).  Did you coach come with Solar?  Mine did, just one panel around 100Watts.  It seems that is where that panel (or the controller) was fused.  That original panel has be repurposed for just the chassis battery, with a new MPPT controller just for that.  The other panels connect to one of two other MPPT controllers for the house batteries.  I have circuit breakers for those connections....not fuses.  Without a wiring diagram, I'm not sure what that 5A Solar fuse controls, if anything.  I don't remember with VIM stands for - Vehicle Information ....??? 

You have more wiring diagrams than I do.  I can't say specifically which ones...my book is in the coach, but just looking for what I wanted to find, I noticed that there are diagrams (pages) that I do not have.  I have confirmed they are applicable to my coach.  But, you have exactly the same diagrams to mine regarding the drawings saying "NOT EXEC".  Specifically, I was looking at where connector M6 went.  On both page 200 and 226 of 238, it show the diagram for M6 with that notation above it.  I did a quick search of your drawings, and I can't find any that show M6 for the Exec.  Also, I didn't see a single wiring diagram in your files for Detroit Diesel.  I have no documentation as to how that is wired to the coach. Lastly, your diagrams of the Rear Run Bay are the same as mine, and do NOT show this Fuse PCB either.   I'm hoping that David Pratt might respond.  Since I have it working now, I'm not in a rush, but it would be interesting if he has anything specific to Detroit Diesel.

[PS - I owe you a response RE: Hydraulic Pump - that was where I was going when the coach wouldn't start.  I'll respond directly to you.]

[georgecederholm]

Rick,

My schematics are in a spiral-bound, legal-sized book, and I agree that there is precious little about the DD60 specifically. I've generally assumed that the lack of specifics meant that all configurations were the same but, well, you know about assumptions.

I think we are both likely victims of Monaco's lax documentation. I suspect that the Detroit option was probably started with the Sig in model year 2004 (or perhaps 2003). It was clearly an optional add by the ordering dealer (Buddy Gregg) on mine, built early 2004. It wasn't uncommon for the documentation to lag by several model years as changes were made.

Now, that said, I don't think I have that PCB fuse block. Yes, it's basically just a glorified fuse holder, like most of the ones in the front and rear run bays. Beyond that, I believe that mine has all of those same fuses in individual weatherproof fuse holders attached to the crossmember right inside the engine compartment. On mine, that's right above the chassis batteries. These fuses control the engine and transmission directly and were used to "drive" the bare chassis around before "house" construction began. (The solar one is an afterthought, as the secondary output of the original solar controller was wired directly to the chassis battery bank.)

So, do you have those individual fuses outside the Rear Run Bay? If so, is there a 5A one blown? I'm thinking that, at some point in the production run, they may have introduced the PCB but wired it in series with the original individual fuses. As long as the originals weren't blown, everything worked and the PCB fuses were optional. Once one blew, it could be replaced on the PCB. Just a WAG here. You can see the direct solar fuse noted on page 91, "Schematic, High Current, Low Voltage", and all the individual ones on Page 111, "Schematic, Battery, Chassis_Domestic". If you have the individual fuses as I mentioned, check for a blown one there.

[willbo777]

On my coach with the DD, I have that fuse block, but unfortunately I don't have any schematics that show where the circuits go, they just show the fuse block.

[waterskier_1]

4 hours ago, willbo777 said:

On my coach with the DD, I have that fuse block, but unfortunately I don't have any schematics that show where the circuits go, they just show the fuse block.

Do you have both ENGINE Fuses installed? 

4 hours ago, willbo777 said:

On my coach with the DD, I have that fuse block, but unfortunately I don't have any schematics that show where the circuits go, they just show the fuse block.

Can you post, or email me at waterskier_1 at yahoo dot com any documentation you have on this board? 

[Ivylog]

There are 2 fuses on the rear start board...left one is for the starter circuit and right is for the fuel solenoid.

[willbo777]

Yes, both of mine are in.

[waterskier_1]

15 hours ago, Ivylog said:

There are 2 fuses on the rear start board...left one is for the starter circuit and right is for the fuel solenoid.

Thanks.  That is opposite of what I think mine are.  The LEFT 5 Amp ENGINE fuse was missing, and it would crank, but no fuel.  So I'm thinking the 5 Amp is for the fuel solenoid, and the 30 Amp is for the starter circuit, but I'm not sure why it takes 30 Amps.  That's not enough to power the starter, and the starter solenoid shouldn't take anywhere near that current.  Do you know where the Fuel solenoid is physically located?

 

[Ivylog]

Older engines the solenoid is in/on the injection pump. Newer engines with electronic injectors there is not a solenoid.

Agree 30A is excessive...I use a 20A auto reset breaker/fuse on both after being put on the side of the road when the fuel fuse blew. The key to figuring it out was no lift pump when the key turned on...back on the road in an hour.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Ivylog

[waterskier_1]

6 minutes ago, Ivylog said:

Older engines the solenoid is in/on the injection pump. Newer engines with electronic injectors there is not a solenoid.

Mine is a 2005 DD Series 60 electronic engine.  My mechanic said he wasn't aware of an external fuel shutoff - that the electronic engines didn't need that since they controlled the fuel with the injectors.  So, is mine considered old or new?  If new, I'm still baffled what that 5A fuse feeds (controls)?  

[Ivylog]

Not familiar with the DD60 (newer) but it could be providing the ECM the signal to let the injectors fire and that’s why it’s only 5 A. This is only a educated guess.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Ivylog

[waterskier_1]

3 minutes ago, Ivylog said:

Not familiar with the DD60 (newer) but it could be providing the ECM the signal to let the injectors fire and that’s why it’s only 5 A. This is only a educated guess.

Thanks.  I would really like to find someone who has some fashion of wiring diagrams or schematics so I know what's going to what.  

[Ivylog]

The starter fuse/wire goes to the starter solenoid. The fuel/wire probably goes to the ECM on your DD60. Doubt a wiring diagram will show anything more.

[Bob Nodine]

14 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Thanks.  I would really like to find someone who has some fashion of wiring diagrams or schematics so I know what's going to what.  

Rick,

Mike H purchased David Pratt's 2005 Exec with a DD60 and may have gotten schematics with the coach. I know David had a lot of documentation for his coach so give Mike a shout and see if he can help. Below is a link to Mike's profile.

https://www.monacoers.org/profile/3930-mike-h/

 

[David Pratt]

All

Sorry for getting back to you so late. I hope I can clear up the confusion on the issue

The PCB in question is R7, Intellitec P/N 73-00878 and is re-purposed in other applications in the Monaco Dynasty, Exec, Sig and other brand comparable coaches.

Monaco installed the F7 board in the RRB in June/2004 because of the change that the ECM Electronics would be controlling the start/run function of the newer generation of Diesel engines. The engines that this board is used for are the ISM-02, ISM-03, DD-60, CAT, CAT13 and the ISX.

The ISM-02 and CAT did not use the 5A fuse, the CAT13 used a 10A fuse in place of the 5A fuse and the ISX, DD60 and ISL-03 had the 5A fuse installed.  Prior to June/2004 the Engine control functions were controlled through PCB 1 and PCB 3.

Both the 5A and the 30A fuse circuits are directly connected to the ECM. The 5A fuse controls the fuel shut off through the ECM and the 30A fuse powers up the ECM and not the start circuit. The start circuit is still controlled by PCB #1.

The mystery for your engine is what happened to the 5A fuse, because it had to be present at one time for the engine to run.

In your Wiring Diagram/Schematics Manual, Schematic #38031334, rev 07/28/04 and 38040611, rev 07/12/04, are the correct ones for your coach and show the circuits.

The Schematic 38031334, rev 06/24/03 was used in coaches prior to 06/2004 and did not show PCB R7 as the engine circuits were controlled by PCB #1.

I had the opportunity to check my 05 Exec yesterday and the 5A fuse was installed next the 30A fuse as indicated in the schematics.

I have attached the three Schematics for  you.

I hope I helped solve the puzzle.

 

RRB Start-Run Circuit.doc

[waterskier_1]

40 minutes ago, David Pratt said:

All

Sorry for getting back to you so late. I hope I can clear up the confusion on the issue

The PCB in question is R7, Intellitec P/N 73-00878 and is re-purposed in other applications in the Monaco Dynasty, Exec, Sig and other brand comparable coaches.

Monaco installed the F7 board in the RRB in June/2004 because of the change that the ECM Electronics would be controlling the start/run function of the newer generation of Diesel engines. The engines that this board is used for are the ISM-02, ISM-03, DD-60, CAT, CAT13 and the ISX.

The ISM-02 and CAT did not use the 5A fuse, the CAT13 used a 10A fuse in place of the 5A fuse and the ISX, DD60 and ISL-03 had the 5A fuse installed.  Prior to June/2004 the Engine control functions were controlled through PCB 1 and PCB 3.

Both the 5A and the 30A fuse circuits are directly connected to the ECM. The 5A fuse controls the fuel shut off through the ECM and the 30A fuse powers up the ECM and not the start circuit. The start circuit is still controlled by PCB #1.

The mystery for your engine is what happened to the 5A fuse, because it had to be present at one time for the engine to run.

In your Wiring Diagram/Schematics Manual, Schematic #38031334, rev 07/28/04 and 38040611, rev 07/12/04, are the correct ones for your coach and show the circuits.

The Schematic 38031334, rev 06/24/03 was used in coaches prior to 06/2004 and did not show PCB R7 as the engine circuits were controlled by PCB #1.

I had the opportunity to check my 05 Exec yesterday and the 5A fuse was installed next the 30A fuse as indicated in the schematics.

I have attached the three Schematics for  you.

I hope I helped solve the puzzle.

 

 

David, thank you so much!  This does explain some of the mystery.  I'm still at a loss as to how this worked for 2 years without that fuse, or if it did have the fuse, where it went.  Even if it could "fall" out (not likely since it is mechanically held in) where did it go?  The RRB has a cover over it.  It should have been laying in the bottom (not) of the RRB if it fell out. I did not go into the engine hatch since it last ran 2 weeks prior.  I also looked to see if it also had the fuses that George C has on the frame rail.  I was hoping there may have been parallel paths, since he point about needing to start and run the engine to move the chassis around before the "house" was built makes sense.  I doubt I'll ever fully solve the mystery.  But I do now know that the missing fuse was the cause of it not running, and the insertion of that fuse was not just coincidental.

David, do you have any wiring diagrams showing the engine wiring harnesses to the ECM and the starter solenoid for this version?   

Also, how did you get these updated drawings?  I have an original spiral bound wiring diagram manual which I believe to be the one that came with coach when new.  Is there somewhere I can go (I know Monaco is not around, and don't think REV will try) to get updated drawings and documentation?

Again, thanks for clarifying this issue.

 

[David Pratt]

Rick

All of these drawings are from the Electrical Schematics Manuals that came with my 05 Exec and several other manuals that I have collected since 2004.

I know REV will not help you get any of the older manuals. They do have the Owners Manuals that you can download on their website, but they do not include the Electrical Manuals or Parts Manuals to be downloaded.

You would have to contact Detroit Diesel and ask if you could get the wiring schematics for the ECM for the DD60. That would give you the PinOuts to what connected from the Coach harness to the engine ECM. Monaco does not provide them.

I have attached the all the Schematics for the engine harness and associated boards that I have for your coach.

 

RRB Engine Schematics.doc