Salesman Switch ????????

[Jeff H]

Hello

Last night all the 12v "flickered" almost like a brown out.  This morning everything 12V was not working.  anything that needs 120 (microwave, fridge, outlets) was working.

I assume it is the Salesman Relay.  The switch at the door has never worked so i assumed it was bypassed.  Attached are pictures of the switch and what I think is the relay.  Am I looking at the right thing?There is 12V at the right side of the relay and 0V at the left side.  Can I just move a wire from one side to the other?

[Dr4Film]

Frankly, that relay, if it is the right one, is a Latching Type relay which is far better than the continuous duty type relays. They fail less often than the latter.

If you prefer to have it function the way it should I would replace it otherwise just tie the wires together from each side or if you have enough wire and lug space put all of the wires on on lug. Then disconnect the control wires, tape them up separately and zip-tie them in a safe location out of the way.

[Steve P]

@Jeff H / others.  I do not have this problem, and I hope I never do. Just in case, how did you find the relay, how did you know it corresponded to the salesman switch, and where is the relay?

[jfbolkovatz]

Steve,

It is MANDATORY you stat the : Year, Model and make of your coach for you question to be answered.

[Steve P]

3 minutes ago, jfbolkovatz said:

Steve,

It is MANDATORY you stat the : Year, Model and make of your coach for you question to be answered.

Keep scrolling... it's right there in my signature.  

[Jeff H]

 oops 

8 hours ago, Steve P said:

@Jeff H / others.  I do not have this problem, and I hope I never do. Just in case, how did you find the relay, how did you know it corresponded to the salesman switch, and where is the relay?

Hi Steve

I thought it might be the relay because i has been discussed here a number of times.  All my 120VAC circuits had power, none of the 12VDC circuits had power.  The inverter was charging the batteries but the EMS was dark.  So I knew there was something up with the 12V

The relay was in the front run bay in the fuse panel lower LH corner (yours may be different but should be similar size and have 4ga wire).  I had seen pictures of it before and when I checked for 12V power it was only on 1 side.  I jumped the lugs on the relay and the lights in the coach came on.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Jeff H
hands faster than brain

[Jeff H]

10 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

Frankly, that relay, if it is the right one, is a Latching Type relay which is far better than the continuous duty type relays. They fail less often than the latter.

If you prefer to have it function the way it should I would replace it otherwise just tie the wires together from each side or if you have enough wire and lug space put all of the wires on on lug. Then disconnect the control wires, tape them up separately and zip-tie them in a safe location out of the way.

Richard

It was the right one. i thought it had been bypassed because the switch inside never worked.  If you look at the lug on the right y ou can see a bare wire going from the lug up to the fuse at the top rt of the relay.  The other side of the fuse is the red going to the pcb on one of the 2 small lugs.  The purple wire goes put of the panel, i assume to the switch.  So I am thinking that instead of bypassing the relay they just rigged it so it was always energized.

Below is what I did.  What is the circled item?

[wamcneil]

I think the circled item is a circuit breaker. 
The latching relays aren’t meant to be constantly energized. It gets a momentary signal from the switch and I think it works life a big clicker in a ballpoint pen. Click on, click off. 
The purpose of that dangling little circuit board is to interrupt signal from the switch  in case it stays on. So the solenoid won’t heat up.
I wonder if their hacked paper-clip bypass finally killed the coil and that’s why it stopped working. 

Edit: oh, wait. I think that bare wire is actually supposed to be there! Now I’m curious  I’ll look at mine later. There are multiple variations of that KIB latching relays. Some have the protection circuit board, others not. II think maybe the relay failed and was replaced with an unprotected version and they moved the protection board over.  
Where does the red wire go that leaves that dangling circuit board?  I think it should go to the fuse and the protected version doesn’t have a bare wire there.  Like the picture on this page:

https://rvpartshop.ca/product/sanitation/51561-kib-enterprises-latching-relay-lr9806cbip.html

Cheers

Walter

Edited August 14, 2021 by wamcneil

[Dr4Film]

13 hours ago, Jeff H said:

Richard

It was the right one. i thought it had been bypassed because the switch inside never worked.  If you look at the lug on the right y ou can see a bare wire going from the lug up to the fuse at the top rt of the relay.  The other side of the fuse is the red going to the pcb on one of the 2 small lugs.  The purple wire goes put of the panel, i assume to the switch.  So I am thinking that instead of bypassing the relay they just rigged it so it was always energized.

Below is what I did.  What is the circled item?

Jeff,

That relay is a LATCHING relay not a CONSTANT Duty relay. So the solenoid is never energized 100% of the time. It is only energized to either Latch the contacts ON or energized to UN-Latch the contacts OFF. If you don't have ANY 12 VDC power to the house then the relay contacts have failed.

The wiring that you have is exactly the way it came from the factory. Either replace the relay or bypass the entire relay.

The item you have circled looks like an Auto-resetting Circuit Breaker.

[ok-rver]

I found the high current relay here at a "lower" price.

https://pdxrvwholesale.com/products/kib-electronics-battery-disconnect-latching-relay-lr9806c-bip

It shows a picture of the distribution board so pretty sure it would be correct. At $60, I would replace mine if it was not working. I like turning off all the stuff it turns off with one push of a button. As per Dr4Film, this latches. When energized, there is probably a mechanical gizmo that closes the contacts and holds them closed without voltage to the coil until the coil is momentarily reenergized and the gizmo allows the contacts to open. The link above states the circuit board breaks the voltage to the input after a few seconds in case the low current house switch gets hung up and continues to supply current. This keeps the pull in coil from burning up.

The device circled appears to be like the second item on this page. This one is 50 amps, that may be enough to supply this distribution board.

https://cdctelecom.com/hylun-Amp-A-A-Circuit-Breaker-Fuse-V-22145/Electrical-Equipment-&-Supplies/

The others on the page have trip levers and state they are resettable. I do not see a reset on this one. 

[Jeff H]

10 hours ago, wamcneil said:

I think the circled item is a circuit breaker. 
The latching relays aren’t meant to be constantly energized. It gets a momentary signal from the switch and I think it works life a big clicker in a ballpoint pen. Click on, click off. 
The purpose of that dangling little circuit board is to interrupt signal from the switch  in case it stays on. So the solenoid won’t heat up.
I wonder if their hacked paper-clip bypass finally killed the coil and that’s why it stopped working. 

Edit: oh, wait. I think that bare wire is actually supposed to be there! Now I’m curious  I’ll look at mine later. There are multiple variations of that KIB latching relays. Some have the protection circuit board, others not. II think maybe the relay failed and was replaced with an unprotected version and they moved the protection board over.  
Where does the red wire go that leaves that dangling circuit board?  I think it should go to the fuse and the protected version doesn’t have a bare wire there.  Like the picture on this page:

https://rvpartshop.ca/product/sanitation/51561-kib-enterprises-latching-relay-lr9806cbip.html

Cheers

Walter

The red wire went to one side of the fuse the bare to the other.  The purple went to the coach

i removed the relay and put all 3 wires on the same lug.  See the picture with the circled item

8 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

Jeff,

That relay is a LATCHING relay not a CONSTANT Duty relay. So the solenoid is never energized 100% of the time. It is only energized to either Latch the contacts ON or energized to UN-Latch the contacts OFF. If you don't have ANY 12 VDC power to the house then the relay contacts have failed.

The wiring that you have is exactly the way it came from the factory. Either replace the relay or bypass the entire relay.

The item you have circled looks like an Auto-resetting Circuit Breaker.

I bypassed it.  The relay is missing in the picture with the circle.  i put all 3 wires to the same lug

8 minutes ago, ok-rver said:

I found the high current relay here at a "lower" price.

https://pdxrvwholesale.com/products/kib-electronics-battery-disconnect-latching-relay-lr9806c-bip

It shows a picture of the distribution board so pretty sure it would be correct. At $60, I would replace mine if it was not working. I like turning off all the stuff it turns off with one push of a button. As per Dr4Film, this latches. When energized, there is probably a mechanical gizmo that closes the contacts and holds them closed without voltage to the coil until the coil is momentarily reenergized and the gizmo allows the contacts to open. The link above states the circuit board breaks the voltage to the input after a few seconds in case the low current house switch gets hung up and continues to supply current. This keeps the pull in coil from burning up.

The device circled appears to be like the second item on this page. This one is 50 amps, that may be enough to supply this distribution board.

https://cdctelecom.com/hylun-Amp-A-A-Circuit-Breaker-Fuse-V-22145/Electrical-Equipment-&-Supplies/

The others on the page have trip levers and state they are resettable. I do not see a reset on this one. 

Thanks Mike.  if the switch inside did anything I might consider replacing the relay.  The switch has never worked.  it is a momentary switch so it makes sense it would have been a latching relay

[Jeff H]

Thank you to all for the heip

If it wasn't for this site I wo.uld have been lost

[Dr4Film]

Jeff,

Sorry I missed that completely so I went back and looked. That is a nice clean way to bypass that relay since you had a post nearby to use.

My Constant Duty relay was small enough that I just placed both wires onto the same post.

[woodylmiller]

I have the latching relay.  It died so it was bypassed.  A continuous relay will drain your batteries, or burn out the coil in the relay.  Latching is the only way to go.  We never use the salesman switch so bypassing the relay didn't matter to us.  Might replace it some day when I have nothing better to do.  I did use a "continuous" duty relay one time, never again.  Took a day to recharge the battery. 

[ok-rver]

Jeff, By "the switch never worked" does that mean the relay did not open and close when you rocked the switch up? My Holiday Rambler manual states you must slide the little square down for the switch to move. Mine rocks to the up position without moving the slide. 

woodylmiller, By "never used", does that mean you just left it in the on position? 

Mike

[Jeff H]

The switch moved in both directions freely, little square did not seem to make a difference

[Dr4Film]

26 minutes ago, Jeff H said:

The switch moved in both directions freely, little square did not seem to make a difference

Not sure what that square button would be for unless it is used to lock the switch from being accidentally activated.

After looking up the Carling technology web site and looking at the different switches I now believe I am correct.

https://tinyurl.com/bv4ctkpc