2009 Camelot AC issues

[CaptPat]

28 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Do all 3 of your AC pass through the EMS?  When my EMS failed I bypassed one AC to get by until I could replace the EMS.  You could consider bypassing the EMS to completely rule this out as a problem. 

When I replaced my AC's last year I did install the Micro-Air Easy Touch, since I was going to have to replace my 5 button anyway it wasn't that much more money.  It was plug and play.  I use my phone to control the AC's via blue tooth but it will also connect via WIFI.  Both are great features.  When I was camping in colder weather I'd use the phone to turn the furnace on to warm up the coach in the AM, I don't mind sleeping in a cold bedroom but hate getting up in one.  While I was in TX I was ~30 miles from the coach and checked the temps and it had climbed to almost 90F, so I turned on one AC and by the time I returned it had lowered to 78F. 

Another advantage is that you can set up the Mirco-Air to send you alerts for temps, so if you have dogs it's a great feature. 

Thanks good to know. Yes all pass through the EMS 

Looking on the web I noticed that there’s a specific EMS replacement board for Monaco’s, different than that for Newmarket, etc.

Edited July 29, 2022 by CaptPat
Added content

[jacwjames]

17 minutes ago, CaptPat said:

Thanks good to know. Yes all pass through the EMS 

Looking on the web I noticed that there’s a specific EMS replacement board for Monaco’s, different than that for Newmarket, etc.

My EMS is Intellitec, when I had trouble I contact M&M Electronics and they walked me through troubleshooting and determined I needed to replace.  I bought my replacement from them as I had to upgrade to a newer model and required the load meter display and sensing circuit besides the board. 

When I bypassed an AC I simply took the two wires on the EMS board and wire nutted them together, this allowed me to run one AC. 

Not sure what EMS system you have but I'd say it should be similar as far as the wiring.

[Tom Cherry]

14 minutes ago, CaptPat said:

Thanks good to know. Yes all pass through the EMS 

Looking on the web I noticed that there’s a specific EMS replacement board for Monaco’s, different than that for Newmarket, etc.

You may be ahead of me here. M&M says that they recommend an upgrade to, I assume, the next model.  Monaco also did some funky wiring and that the old board would not interchange and the had made adapter pigtails.  IF it is the EMS, I would become best friends with M&M and get from them, as they are an authorized distributor, what they say is needed.  We HAVE had folks that changed out the whole panel or just the PCB.

Keep plugging…I was about 100% certain all your AC were shedable.  This one is going down, I’m sure you are pleased to know, a new and unique and uncharted “Rabbit Hole”….  I do feel your frustration….after days of experimentation on my ghost on/off light….

 

[CaptPat]

The M&M website says they don’t offer tech support, that seems different than the experience several have had. Is that a new policy or a website not updated?

[96 EVO]

The EMS panel on my '08 model only show the front and rear units as 'shedable'.

[Tom Cherry]

19 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

The EMS panel on my '08 model only show the front and rear units as 'shedable'.

The easy answer is…it was Monaco and “It Depends”.  Look at the print I provided.  Pull the 4 screws, power off, and then the cover.  Look at the 6 terminal, THREE AC portion on yours.  If you have leads or wires on all 6 terminals, then all three are in the shedding side,  if you only have 4 wires and the 1-2 or 3-4 or 5-6 is open…you have TWO.

Actual VIF (Verify In Field) is the only way.  If you get curious, then do it and let us know,,,

Thanks,

[Tom Cherry]

34 minutes ago, CaptPat said:

The M&M website says they don’t offer tech support, that seems different than the experience several have had. Is that a new policy or a website not updated?

No idea.  M&M was hired and Intellitec would give you their phone number.  Intellitec had a great, but ONE MAN tech support on the Multiplex and EMS and other controls lie the pumps and the Load Selector modules.  I don’t know….but I DO know they still are a distributor and a repair shop.  Someone posted, or at least I think that they did, another shop…

I personally would not wander down that path until you have done the recommend trouble shooting.  And I just got off the phone with Micro-Air tech support.

They actually sort of reverse engineered the replacement.  The tech was very knowledgeable on the interchangeability and the features, but not with the causes or failures that folks experienced….it was “I think it is broke or it won’t work or the ON/OFF switch is bad.

We talked and I explained how the comm line was daisy chained and how the system would reboot and verify what was connected and the DIP switches and the various aspects.  Once he picked up on that we bantered. BINGO….light bulb.  OTHER than an EMS Failure 

The ONLY thing that would shut down ALL units at once…other than a “connector failure” was for the FRONT zone’s Controller to fail.  If it WENT belly up or had an “intermittent” short or open circuit…then the downstream AC’s no longer had a COMM signal….and would also, simultaneously….shut down.

SO…using that logic.  Assuming that the RESET, which you have not reported back on, did not work….then the bypassing of the EMS board….then it HAS to be in the DuoTherm control loop.

SOLUTION.  Remove the FRONT (from the top) maybe bottom as well, Control Module. It has the DIP SWITCHES.  Take it back.  Put it in the rear or middle.  You will have to change only ONE DIP.  The front one does NOT have a ZONE selection switch or “ZONE 1”.  The rear or middle is set for its respective position.

NOW, I say this with some knowledge and confidence.  I do NOT think that the middle controller has the FURNACE DIP ON.  There is NO AquaHot zone separated.  The rear bedroom and the Private toilet pumps are connected in parallel.

SO…which ever one you swap up front…..take a picture of BOTH and set the “stolen one” exactly as the FRONT and vice versa for the trouble shooting test.

Rarely, but it does happen, do we lose a Control Module…but it there is an intermittent or a heat or whatever related failure in the front and the COMM signal is interrupted….like maybe…your strange screen would do…then THAT is the issue and you replace it.

Past that….it is a guessing game.  Doing the above and logically trouble shooting will eliminate points of failure.  It COULD even be a and COMM cable terminal end up front.  I seriously doubt you are going to find a tech that says….OH YEAH.  He will probably swap…if it follows the module, he will the “reterminate the ends.  Still there, he will put in a piece of external phone line between the front and the next or middle.  That is the ONLY way to isolate….  Unless you pay for the time that a tech will spend doing the same things that are suggested.

BUT, I did get a lead on the most “senior” Micro-Air tech and the tech said to use his name and he would call me back as he was more experienced in the real world Dometic systems that he was….so, I’m following up on that….maybe next week.  You have 2 full days to decide or do the above….or you might have plans…

Good Luck and keep the faith….at the end, you will know more and not drop several hundred $$…assuming your skill set from your past work.

Have a nice weekend….I’ll respond once I get more info.

[CaptPat]

A few updates on this, unfortunately a 30 minute job to replace my front step motor ballooned to 6 hours yesterday so I still need to get on the roof and check the units up there.

My EMS is wired as follows, (note central AC is not on the load shed list):

(Leg, Load, EMS Shed Load)  Load Shed Order (first to last) WTR Htr, Rear AC, Wash/Dry, Front AC

Leg 1    

    Center AC      No
    Central Vac    No
    Water Htr       Yes
    Front AC        Yes

Leg 2    

    Block Htr       No
    Rear AC        Yes
    Inverter         No
    W/D               Yes
    Refrigerator    No

Does it make sense that opening the 120V breaker to the Front AC would caused the mid and rear ACs to shutdown as well?

@Tom Cherry The theory about the control board in the front AC seems reasonable, however I've never observed "EE", loss of comms on the thermostat.  If I read your previous post correctly the step you are suggesting is to swap the control boards between the front and rear AC, is that right?  I'm not too keen on swapping control boards, IME one usually ends up with 2 bad boards.  The AC units are original equipment, so I'd expect that the control boards may be brittle/aged and may not tolerate a transfer.  Regardless I should check the availability of replacement control boards before moving in this direction.
 

[Tom Cherry]

7 hours ago, CaptPat said:

A few updates on this, unfortunately a 30 minute job to replace my front step motor ballooned to 6 hours yesterday so I still need to get on the roof and check the units up there.

My EMS is wired as follows, (note central AC is not on the load shed list):

(Leg, Load, EMS Shed Load)  Load Shed Order (first to last) WTR Htr, Rear AC, Wash/Dry, Front AC

Leg 1    

    Center AC      No
    Central Vac    No
    Water Htr       Yes
    Front AC        Yes

Leg 2    

    Block Htr       No
    Rear AC        Yes
    Inverter         No
    W/D               Yes
    Refrigerator    No

Does it make sense that opening the 120V breaker to the Front AC would caused the mid and rear ACs to shutdown as well?

@Tom Cherry The theory about the control board in the front AC seems reasonable, however I've never observed "EE", loss of comms on the thermostat.  If I read your previous post correctly the step you are suggesting is to swap the control boards between the front and rear AC, is that right?  I'm not too keen on swapping control boards, IME one usually ends up with 2 bad boards.  The AC units are original equipment, so I'd expect that the control boards may be brittle/aged and may not tolerate a transfer.  Regardless I should check the availability of replacement control boards before moving in this direction.
 

First. You are a real jewel as far as following things and also researching and also a bit of "Bull Dog".  It is folks like you that make the group, especially some of the frequent "helper" get a real feeing of satisfaction. FWIW. I spent at least the same time on my front steps and never could get the eBay OEM motor to work and found that I had two cracked or split motor spacers and had a buddy make me some. I then found a CW 3 minutes from storage that had the REAL OEM motor in stock ON SALE and only wanted $135 labor...guess what I did...it was also almost 100 dF and my DW was getting tired of cycling the motor.  YOU ARE GOOD!

Brain had a BIG flash this morning. Now it is time to abandon the AC and get things in order. DO NOT PANIC....this is a piece of cake...and MAY be your issue. If it isn't, then it WILL BE.  We have had the EXACT "sort of" issues with AC, but the elusive UNDERLINED numbers never popped up....but it DID kill the AC's and drive the owner crazy until we had him do the PM.  I did a bunch of googling and the one below was fascinating.  I do NOT think (but don't know) if the EE fits our units as this appears to be for a different hardwired TStat.  BUT, I am giving you resources for your files...I followed the Bryant Link...already had that and also am giving you four files...to help explain. I included the FILE with all of your prints.lot.  OK>>>BS I had a set of factory Monaco electrical prints. Frank McElroy had someone upload him the same prints. OPPS...there are TWO different prints for the 12 Volt Systems....which is the BIBLE.  So, I am giving you the following.

PDF that is in our files. It has all the prints...but in ONE file with an Index. Problem is that you have to scroll down.  My set, which if you PM me, I will email, has individual Prints so you can open in different windows and compare

Original 12 Volt System and ALTERNATIVE..THIS IS THE KEY!

Multiplex PDF from mine....HERE IS THE NUGGET....This MUST WORK...otherwise GREMLINS.  Will explain...but I have put off taking the time to do a GOOD, probably needed PM...this is what I THINK is happening.  If it is NOT...then you will have FIXED something that will, based on many posters here, DRIVE YOU CRAZY.

Trouble shooting guide for the system....Duotherm Doc.

High Current drawing showing the House or Salesman's Solenoid.

Take a deep breath, a cup of coffee...and then read ON....

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/ee-code-on-duo-therm-compfort-control-274873.html

BOTTOM LINE....I STILL think you have a "voltage drop out" issue and it is intermittent and you can NEVER depend on any error code as the engineers can't possibly see ALL the crazy things. This comes from years of personal home and car and MH tinkering and also some 20 odd years of being in charge of a large maintenance department and standing behind a frustrated Tech and hearing his fuss or actually designing and doing my own trouble shooting and "learning".  I was a Wanna Be EE and found the higher level Calculus eluded me and swapped to another Engineering major and graduated, actually made the Dean's list, and had a heck of a career and never lost my "lust for electricity".  I enjoy wiring and circuits...like folks do crossword puzzles.

I am going to recommend that you do a much, probably needed, Electrical System PM and "Monaco Camelot UPGRADE". I have done this once and it needs to be done again. There is a vulnerable terminal strip and it is easy to do....plus, to avoid future gremlins, I will tell you what I did and that will, I believe, result in you NOT having future ghosts....so here goes...

ALL AC and DC Power OFF. No Shore.  Genny CB on unit OFF. Cover the Solar if you have it. Otherwise you have to chase down the TWO charging fuses in the RRB and I just put a blanket over mine. Disconnect the Positives of the Chassis and House batteries.  VERIFY ALL THIS and then lets fix it...or start to fix it.

Transfer Switch. If you have the IOTA-50R, it will need to be replaced....it was recalled. Monaco went belly up. Navistar bought them, so you Camelot is an Orphan. The recommended replacement is the ESCO LPT50BRD. If you have the original...then I will only tell you HOW to inspect and PM but recommend you replace it...which is obviously within you skill set. PM me offline for specifics...it is covered in many topics here. Pull off the cover. Tighten ALL the lugs. Inspect for any charred or burned or smoked area. IF it looks UGLY...then get an LPT50 BRD on order...ASAP.  You have now done the first STEP....PREVENTATIVE...but IMPORTANT.

Main Panel and Bathroom cabinet area. Pull the brown main cover off. There is also a wooden panel below it around the 3 Multiplex modules. Some have had to pop the cabinet doors.  Newbies did this....  You are NOT one of them, NOW.  Look on the Muliplex Print. There is a terminal strip....HIDDEN OF COURSE with several Circuit breakers. Look in the left lower corner of the print. I THINK, and I have not done mine....that you will also see the Fantastic Fan control board...on the right lower corner of the print. This is what controls the FANS. The Relay Output module sends a signal or turns on a ON/OFF circuit. Each of the fan switches then controls a relay on that board. The ORIGINAL FF circuit was a wall switch. This is just a "Multiplexed" way to turn power on and off. You don't need to mess with it...but remember that the relays can go bad...so this is where to look.

OK...Tighten up ALL the terminals, inspecting for any obvious signs of burns or such. THIS IS WHERE YOU MAY HAVE A PROBLEM...  We can't go on without ELIMINATING IT....  YES, this seems "Off the Wall", but a large portion of what we and others have learned....NEVER TAKE A MH Wiring Problem for granted.  MAKE SURE YOU HAVE VOLTAGE.  Maybe NOT...but it will be futile to keep experimenting if one of these terminals is loose and heats up and you get a millisecond open circuit. The Main house panel is a PASS THROUGH and if it was loose, as it has been twice before, then you are loosing your internal power...and that is the 12 VDC to the TStats.

OK....next up.  The AC Panel. Tighten every screw and connection. I did not do the big lugs...or maybe I did. BUT, all the grounds, Neutrals and Hots.  I would snug the nuts on the Multiplex modules.

Next...Outside.  Go to the Rear Run Bay (back one) open up the swinging panel door. There are many LARGE Fuses in there.  Side NOTE. I have blown some. I have a spare BUSSMANN (OEM...like in yours) Fuse for EVERY one of them.  There is also a ROUND fuse (silver) that is a biggie and it is the POWER to the Inverter. YES...I have that one. Every LUG and TERMINAL needs to be snugged.

NEXT UP...assuming you are familiar with the SALESMAN Switch Fiasco. SOME use a NAPA jumper and jumper it. I did for a while. Then when I was chasing a Hydraulic Power Hot Connection, I got RID of the Salesman's Switch Solenoid. The BIG (Big Boy) is the one right in the middle. I had to replace mine and have the old one as a spare which I intend to refurbish and clean the contacts. To the RIGHT...in the CORNER is the Salesman's Solenoid. It has control wires, from the upfront switch and the two Red Cables. I just took mine out.  I labeled the control wires. I took the output of the Solenoid and moved it over to the buss where the input was. It is GONE. GOOD RIDDANCE...  I also just added TWO high current prints for you review...so you can see and understand what is going on. The Salesmans Switch is called the HOUSE SOLENOID. It was a Monaco Dealer WANTS THIS, so the deal was that a salesman could run quickly through the lot and kill all the lights and such....A FIASCO as it was underrated and not set up for frequent ON/OFF.

NOW...final STEP.  Go to the FRB (under Driver). DO the SAME.  TIGHTEN UP ALL the studs. 

BONUS....and this can be done later...but it NEEDS...absolutely...to be DONE. I dropped over $2,500 in a new Hydraulic system. I will PM you about it....with a detailed inspection. BUT, this is also for ALL Camelot owners...so they can learn. The 150 Amp Resettable CB in the lower left corner needs to be replaced with either an 80 or 100 amp unit. Monaco GOOFED. They put in a 150 Amp for a motor that should have been 65 - 80. I burned mine up. I downrated it when I replaced the old unit. At MAX...put in a 100 Amp....it will save you money.

NOW.....go to the hydraulic pump and look at the motor and the solenoid. SNUG up, you can loosen and then twist or rotate to polish the contracts and secure the Solenoid Cables. Now, on the PUMP MOTOR...pull off the lock nuts. Pull off the cables. Clean as needed and polish. Take a small wrench and there is a LOCK NUT on each stud. SNUG THEM...do NOT overtighten. Mine got loose... the internal connection between the studs and the windings arced....big time. BURNED up the motor and blew fuses. I found that out...but the damage was done. Even the NEW Lippert motor was not "snug".  I built hundreds of thousands of carburetors and I KNOW about air or electric tools....they are set TOO low. So, once you tighten the interior lock nuts...then reassemble. You may NEVER have an issue...but if you do...$$$$.

FINISHED.....HERE IS MY CONCLUSION....which after you gave me the update and I pondered on it...has taken a different or perhaps alternative twist.

I STILL think that you have an "Intermittent" situation that, we know, impacts ALL your AC's.  It is freaky as no one, best I can find, has had it. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist....but no one has reported it....or it is UNCOMMON.  Congratulations....buy or don't buy lottery tickets.

NOW>>>  You have totally PM'ed the system. That eliminates, with 99% confidence, an intermittent "Voltage" drop out...either AC or DC.  I would RUN the system and see what happens.....and here is what might and what I would do.

You DO....have a Comm Failure.  Otherwise the TStat would be displaying the normal Screen. NOW, I really don't know how to describe my "gut assumption", but we have GOT to find the source. You will NOW have a pure or hopefully UNINTERRUPTED power to the #8 Fuse...in the distribution Panel.  I just added the HOUSE panel to your prints. Change out that FUSE....steal ONE...there are spares, I think, in the area of the bathroom pane. OUTSIDE SHOT...but we MUST eliminate all the upstream Gremlins. SO, if you have GOOD and consistent 12 VDC to EACH of the AC unit's Control Modules...then CHECK...  Still SHUTS DOWN...got to be an 120 VAC ISSUE...as we have GOOD DC.

Next up...I would probably bypass and use two wire nuts from the EMS Board and eliminate the relays. YES, the center AC is NOT on the Shedding circuit. But GOD ONLY KNOWS....if the two two trip out (due to a bad EMS board) what type of spike might jump up and "Feed over" into one of them. Probably NOT...but a small investment in time....just to eliminate.  

THEN...If still does it.  You have to have a BAD Front AC Control Module. NOW, reading what you said and your concerns...  I am not of the school of Replace and See. You have to make the call. There are only TWO Dip Switches.  My retort to you is that someone who is tenacious enough to replace a difficult step motor is MORE than skilled to pull pigtails and pop out two boards and reprogram it and then reinstall and test. If that AIN'T it...what have you lost...other than knowing that you will be replacing a "maybe bad" module with a new one....without first having solid evidence....that is the PROBLEM.  

FWIW....I never plan to go through this nightmare. YES...I will test and fix and such...but when ONE system goes....then it will be a $5K or so job and my TWO will leave and I will have a new TStat and move on.  Your's add's in a second one...and maybe $2,500 each (installed) is a off but that was what I was quoted recently.

If I get MORE info from Micro-Air next week, I will pass it along. MAYBE YOU DO....have a bad Tstat.  BUT, until you eliminate ALL the more common problems...such as voltage dropping out (AC and DC) then buying a new TStat seems like a guess.... JUST the way my brain works.

BTW....FOLLOWUP.  Did you EVER try the system with all the Flueorescent FUSES removed.  SMALL chance...but you NEVER KNOW....you could EVEN have a "Muliplex" ghost and it is "triggering" or turning ON a Fluorescent light....just a flicker. If I had NOT chased a Multiplex Ghost, I would not feel this way. SO, pulling the fuses NOW...if you want...or have not done so and testing might tell you something....but I'm more focused on a REAL connection issue....

I really am at a loss for OTHER issues....and that does NOT mean that someone else will have the light bulb go off. BUT, until you do the PM and get the electrical system fully BACK TO ORIGINAL...from a connection standpoint....I think you really are chasing a ghost.

I also think that the time spent will keep you from having all sort of electrical issues. I fight them or try to prevent them all the time. There is an intermittent....and odds are...a CONNECTION and not a component....  

I would NOT be so confident, except Dr. Frank and myself have been involved, within the past few months on some similar issues and the hidden Terminal strip was the culprit....and NOW I need to PM mine.

LONG....so read and sit back and think.....  

Good LUCK...

EDITED 3:45 PM.

The complexity of the trouble shooting is being taken off line between CAPT & myself, with others assisting.  This particular problem has not, based on consulting with my vast array of “All the King’s men … horses”, popped up before.  If there are some simple examples of freak, similar incidents, please post.  There will be a synopsis, once, and we are confident, it is resolved.  Thanks to all.  The thread is not being closed…nor locked..

Thanks,

Thanks.

12 volt switch layout.pdf 12 volt systems ALERNATIVE - 2009 Camelot.pdf Multiplex.pdf ccc5 Trouble Shooting.pdf 2009 Camelot (1).pdf 12V High Current Dist TGC Rev 1..pdf 12V High Current Dist..pdf House Fusebox and solenoid.pdf

[brokenarrow1244]

I had the problem of switching from gen set to shore power a few years ago. I lost my front ac and found the circuit board was fried, had to replace it. there was no power to the a/c unit, first place to look was circuits. no fuse blown, removed the panel and found crispy sparking things happening on the board. 

I only have 2 units, very similar to yours I have a 2006 Camelot. Most recent repairs to ac cause me to recommend to check out the components with a good multimeter. I know when it is really hot it is nearly impossible to go up there and work in the heat and sun. Last heat wave caused me to wait for days for a  little overcast to get up there. Good Luck I have a 2006 Monaco, 40 foot unit PDD  cummins ISL, with 2 a/c units model 630035.321.

Edited July 31, 2022 by brokenarrow1244
more complete information

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, brokenarrow1244 said:

I had the problem of switching from gen set to shore power a few years ago. I lost my front ac and found the circuit board was fried, had to replace it. there was no power to the a/c unit, first place to look was circuits. no fuse blown, removed the panel and found crispy sparking things happening on the board. 

I only have 2 units, very similar to yours I have a 2006 Camelot. Most recent repairs to ac cause me to recommend to check out the components with a good multimeter. I know when it is really hot it is nearly impossible to go up there and work in the heat and sun. Last heat wave caused me to wait for days for a  little overcast to get up there. Good Luck I have a 2006 Monaco, 40 foot unit PDD  cummins ISL, with 2 a/c units model 630035.321.

Good insight and simple.  SOMETIMES is the obvious....Thanks,

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

When switching back and forth between shore and genset power it is good to turn off the airs for 5 minutes or so before switching to allow the Freon pressure to equalize in the systems.  That makes for a easier start of the units.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

[Tom Cherry]

20 minutes ago, Chuck B 2004 Windsor said:

When switching back and forth between shore and genset power it is good to turn off the airs for 5 minutes or so before switching to allow the Freon pressure to equalize in the systems.  That makes for a easier start of the units.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

Agreed….not from experience of course…. But if you forget to turn off AC, then pull power and immediately turn on the Genny….the result is a total shutdown.  Even after shutting down the AC, it took about 5 minutes of waiting, hopefully and with great concern over $$, but then the Genny restarted fine.  Ran for 5 minutes, out of extra caution, and then the AC, brought on individually, with a 5 minute gap, worked great.

Good point and the AC goes OFF…from the MODE SETTING, right before slides are retracted….

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

Researching to develop good habits on the front end keeps the wallet from being lighter down the road.  The bitterness of poor choices remains long after the sweetness of saving time is forgotten.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

[Bill R]

7 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

It was a Monaco Dealer WANTS THIS, so the deal was that a salesman could run quickly through the lot and kill all the lights and such..

Thanks for the explanation Tom of why it is called the "salesman" switch.  I had not heard this before.  I am further enlightened.

[CapnDean]

Capt Pat - - CapnDean here....  How cool?  I have a 2008 Camelot.   It has been my experience that the center AC does not play well with the others too.   I can run Zone 1 & 3 no prob, Zone 1& 2 no prob, Zone 2 & 3 no prob.   But try to run zone 2 solo?   Meh.....not so much.   It's as if Zone 1 or 3 has to be set to run before zone 2 will wake up. 

I suspect your issue is in the load shed,  Sounds like you're coach is shedding load either because it is truly feeling the overload, or perhaps its THINKING it is in overload when it is not.

[CaptPat]

Got on the roof yesterday before the rain.  All AC units looked pretty good, some dirt but no bugs, wasps etc.  Blew out the cooing fins.  Did a visual inspection on the electronics, there were no obvious issues, didn't have time to meter check the caps.

@CapnDean I've seen what I think is unusual behavior from the EMS, I'm going to call them today and see what they say.  I'll post back my findings.

@Chuck B 2004 Windsor My normal practice is to shut down the AC when shifting to/from shore and generator.  Most of the time I physically disconnect shore, or shutdown the generator as a first step in the switching process.

@Tom Cherry I'll get started on the PM suggestions above, it may be a day or so as rain is in forecast and my wedding anniversary is also this week.

[Tom Cherry]

8 hours ago, CapnDean said:

Capt Pat - - CapnDean here....  How cool?  I have a 2008 Camelot.   It has been my experience that the center AC does not play well with the others too.   I can run Zone 1 & 3 no prob, Zone 1& 2 no prob, Zone 2 & 3 no prob.   But try to run zone 2 solo?   Meh.....not so much.   It's as if Zone 1 or 3 has to be set to run before zone 2 will wake up. 

I suspect your issue is in the load shed,  Sounds like you're coach is shedding load either because it is truly feeling the overload, or perhaps its THINKING it is in overload when it is not.

Capt Dean…Maybe? Probably not?  We are still working on the issues. Have to eliminate first, but no one that has had AC issues in over 13 years of posting has had this.  In addition, until he physically verifies how the wiring was done, the prints, and his comments show that the center AC is NOT connected to the load shedding. 

FIRST FUNDAMENTAL STEP.  Clean all connections.  If there is the slightest amount of intermittent connection in the COMM (phone line), it will play havoc and come up with ways to fake out a NASA electronic guru.  Then do a reboot.  ABSOLUTE FIRST TROUBLE SHOOTING STEP. 

Read my post.  Folks have had AC’S bumping on and off and barely saw a blip or had no lights at all.  The terminal strip behind the wood panel above the 3 multiplex modules has become a “UH OH” spot.  The complete electrical PM that will be required to get both AC to the units and 12 VDC to the Thermostat should be done every 5 - 10 years…we know that now….but the Camelots seem very prone to issues.  This doesn’t require any meters or such, just being able to disconnect power and use a nut driver (socket) and screwdriver.  Believe me…you WILL have a real failure when it is the worst time.  Recommend you read carefully and do it.  The cost of a hydraulic failure and having to get 3 guys and a heavy duty drill to run in, pushing, your front slides ain’t fun.  I urge you to do it…your call on the salesman switch, but it will fail and shut you down,  Do these, test and report back and we will try to help.  This is real world Camelot experience and not some “maybe try this’ll.

THEN….time for the next step. RFI.  Review the posts.  On the Relay Output Intellitec module, pull all the fuses for every fluorescent zone. I suspect that will be 4….but that is based on my 40 ft. Then experiment.  
 

Good luck….let us know. Disregard trash below…will not delete 

 

59 minutes ago, CaptPat said:

1 hour ago, CaptPat said:

Got on the roof yesterday before the rain.  All AC units looked pretty good, some dirt but no bugs, wasps etc.  Blew out the cooing fins.  Did a visual inspection on the electronics, there were no obvious issues, didn't have time to meter check the caps.

@CapnDean I've seen what I think is unusual behavior from the EMS, I'm going to call them today and see what they say.  I'll post back my findings.

@Chuck B 2004 Windsor My normal practice is to shut down the AC when shifting to/from shore and generator.  Most of the time I physically disconnect shore, or shutdown the generator as a first step in the switching process.

@Tom Cherry I'll get started on the PM suggestions above, it may be a day or so as rain is in forecast and my wedding anniversary is also this week.

Was responding to the first post.  Just saw your PM.  Please call me before involving M&M.  They will require more, way more into than you have….and it will be futile for them and you until you do some things.  Your picture needs you to do some specific simple things….we did not have this before.  Always the case….but no way around it.  
 

will be at Dr. if I don’t answer…. Will try to respond to PM but getting ready.  If you want to be productive and weather permits….start with the PM, like I told CAPT Dean.  That is mandatory regardless.  PROGRESS….

[Tom Cherry]

OK….Think the problem has been diagnosed and we know the cause.  Pat has been meticulous in what he did and following the various steps, posted here and some additional testing.  Finally we had a 3 way conversation with Frank McElroy, so I am writing a summary and Pat can chime in and will also be doing another test.

Two causes.  Maybe 3….one was coincidental.

His CG Pedestal was acting funky.  Had a bad breaker.  That was before the issue and maybe caused some confusion.

Next, while doing his total Electrical PM, he found that the Front AC breaker had become partially unseated or locked and down or hanging lower than the rest.  He reseated.  That was probably a point of his resistance and MIGHT have caused the EMS to get involved.

EDIT: Finally, he was running all the AC on LOW cool during an extremely HIGH HUMIDITY day.  The consensus, per the DuoTherm documentation and the Camelot manual. (See Frank’s followup post)  HIGH HUMIDITY must have HIGH setting.  The units will freeze up and shutdown.  He was not in the MH when they shutdown…so whether the front AC was load shed by the  EMS, due to the heat trip out of the Front AC breaker is not known.  However, following that failure mode logic, then the others probably froze and shut down.  Pat did comment that there were some clicking noises and such like the units were trying to restart or relays would click, but  AC would not come on. With only 28.5K BTU capacity from the remaking two, the 42 ft MH would not have been cooled effectively by both, in a high humidity condition…on low, by them.

  FOOTNOTE.  Those of us that need all the AC we can get never use anything but High or Auto.  Since Pat has 1,035 BTU/FT and mine has 750 BTY/FT….he usually could do quite well.  EXCEPT the RH was high….and the manual says to use “High”.  My personal experience is that AUTO works OK…but I might switch to HIGH to see if I get more or better efficiency and cooling.

He finished the PM, did find some other connections needing attention, but normal.  Then, he has run for several hours on the 10KW Genny with no issues…and is going to more closely pay attention to the humidity and maybe balance them.  But if on Auto or High, should be OK.

He did experience a glitch in the EMS, but that probably happened when the front AC breaker TRIPPED (heat…fixed now), so that might or is probably normal. We did discuss the “need” for ALL the breakers to be ON in the Intellitec 120 VAC panel…as others have reported strange phenomenon when they turned off some breakers.  Rule of thumb….leave them ALL ON.

He will be going on a trip soon and will test using a 50A service.  He was also proactive and has a Progressive HW50C installed….so he has protection.

Thats it.  Thanks to all the posted or sent offline comments.  strange…but now seemingly solved and logical.

Again, hats off to CAPT Pat for being meticulous and also responding quickly and following the recommendations so troubling shooting was easier.  Frank and I both commented that our 15 minute call, after the report and data he sent us….made it easy….

[CaptPat]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this journey. Intermittent problems are difficult to troubleshoot even harder when there are a few potential problems. I’ll be setting up a short visit at a local CG to see if we have the issue resolved prior to departing on a longer trip in early September.  I’ve hd this coach since new, this the first I heard that Dometic recommends setting the fan to HIGH when it’s humid—never too old to learn. 

[Frank McElroy]

There are times when an offline conversation via email or over the phone reveals a lot of very useful information. 

In this case, it was discovered that the roof AC units were run on low fan speeds under high outside temperature and high humidity conditions.  Once many years ago this also happened to me.  The evap coils will freeze up and the AC units will go into what is called a super heat condition and shut down to prevent liquid freon from entering back into the compressor.  I knew better - just forgot to put the fans on high on a very hot humid day. 

Here is a screen shot from the owners manual on my coach warning to always run the fan on high under high humidity conditions. (Note - if running the fan on Auto, the fan might not always run at the high speed setting and once the compressor shuts off, so will the fan.  Having the fan on the high speed setting will be sure that any residual ice is melted off the evap coil once the compressor shuts down when the thermostat set temperature is satisfied.)

Although there is a remote possibility that the EMS board could be a problem, it is most likely that the AC evap coils froze up and over time caused all 3 AC units to shut down and lock out but then restart and run just fine after an hour or two when you reset the thermostat.

[RS lakeshore]

My Signature is new to me and I have learned so much from all the people here.much appreciated. In reading the above subjects I need to know what is a. ems and where where is it located ? Thanks. 

[jacwjames]

Just now, RS lakeshore said:

My Signature is new to me and I have learned so much from all the people here.much appreciated. In reading the above subjects I need to know what is a. ems and where where is it located ? Thanks. 

EMS>>> Energy Management System.

Not sure on your rig but on mine the Intellitec EMS is built into the main service panel.  When I remove the cover the EMS system is on the right, it is basically a circuit board with relays.   The EMS will sense whether you are on a 30 amp power supply (or less) and if so it will shed power from selected appliances to maintain the load below the 30 amp level.  In my case it will shed AC1, AC2, water heater, and dryer.  When you are hooked to a 30 amp power supply it will show amps on a load meter.  Attached is a picture of the name tag with description.

If you have a system like this it would be in your manual with how it operates etc. 

[96 EVO]

13 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

There are times when an offline conversation via email or over the phone reveals a lot of very useful information. 

In this case, it was discovered that the roof AC units were run on low fan speeds under high outside temperature and high humidity conditions.  

Frank, the OP replied in a post on page 1 that he was getting shutdowns with the fans set to all 3 positions.

[Tom Cherry]

55 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Frank, the OP replied in a post on page 1 that he was getting shutdowns with the fans set to all 3 positions.

Not Frank, but was the one that initiated the 3 way call.  CAPT Pat also was a bit more specific in the 2 page notes he sent us before the call.  We also talked.  Bottom line.  To the best of our ability to discuss and diagnose, the AC’s would not come back on, presumably because they, or the compressors, were still recovering.  In addition, his first failure was, I believe, from a bad 50 amp breaker.  

What was stated was what we discussed and the logic.  What was accomplished, after the PM, which corrected the high resistance condition triggering the EMS or maybe actually just the breaker shutting down…then knowing the ambient conditions and the humidity load on the two (15 & 13.5 KBTU) units NOT being set, as posted, from Dometic and Monaco, in the proper mode….things went south.  Past that….who knows.

Now. to Pat’s credit, he had a good memory and then excellent notes.  But, the confusion around the first failure and the CG pedestal may have just been a bit too confusing.  Typically, like anything else, a few pictures, some good hard data and then the back and forth, especially with Frank and I both “solving” or processing from our own “way to trouble shooting, that is the ultimate. 

We OFTEN, more than often, see posts or read comments where things are stated in a manner that leads you down one path and not the correct one.  That is one of the most frustrating things about online blogs….and then there is the helpful, but not relevant info thrown in.

Bottom line.  The AC’s sat for a while.  All the stress and equalization of, probably being iced over and frozen, were allowed to happen. Think turning over a refrigerator on its side.  That is an absolute NO NO.  But, you can’t get a Samsung inside to install…. So it has to SIT. Read any service manual….invert or tilt a refrigerator, let it sit X hours, at a minimum, to get the refrigerant redeployed and stable. DO NOT OPERATE.

I think we need to move on…and let’s see if the units work when he tests them.  I have not got any feedback that they failed during his test.  All was normal

The takeaways are.  PM or have good electrical systems.  Operate the units based on the manufacturer’s recommendations, which may not be how you run your home systems.  An ADDED ONE.  KEEP THE FILTERS CLEAN….  And, no offense, be WARY of silencing filters that impede the airflow and will cause higher Delta T’s and damage the units.  I wash mine, on a trip, with moderate to heavy use, every 2 weeks or so.

Hope this makes sense and clears the first post up.

As to the EMS.  Frank is familiar with it.  I have one and have way too much “had to check this out to help or my own issues” with M&M.  Based on what CAPT Pat measured and has told us, I may have more “confidence” than  his that it is working OK.  His Remote works and is not flaky.  I had to reset mine at least 3 times…as have many Camelot owners, one a well trained Navy electronic tech and also “why did this Military PCB fail?” Senior Tech for a major DoD electronics supplier.  Nothing .CAPT Pat reported or told us was out of the ordinary.  So, continue to use.  I had the same discomfort about my Magnum Remote…the inverter was acting, intermittently over a few months….and was not “switching”.  Magnum spent a few hours over a month getting me to do and test that and such.  Finally, you could set all the parameters….opps….then an hour later….the settings were gone and I had a 1000 amp hour bank….  So…ordered a new one.  Perfect.  Time will tell on the EMS and having full voltage to the AC’s is critical and the high resistance connection, discovered during the PM ain’t good.