2002 Monaco Windsor - Should I buy it?

[Joe Lee]

Hey Friends!

I’m looking at purchasing a 2002 Windsor PKDD with 96,000 miles. Asking $56,000.

Does anyone have any recommendations for this coach?

I was told from a dealer that the ‘trailing arms’ should have been replaced and if they haven’t been, it’s an expensive fix. 
 

Please share your thoughts on this type of coach. I’m coming out of a 96 Crown Royale Signature. 
 

Thanks!

 

Joe

7045172021 - if you would rather talk than type!

[Russ R]

Find out which chassis it has. The trailing arm issue was only on the RR4R and R4R Roadmaster Chassis.  Search it out there are several discussion's about it.

If you have the FOUR air bag suspension and your trailing arm goes UNDER the AXLE= Neway OR R-Way= MAY, repeat MAY. BE SUBJECT TO THE RECALL/problem  
If you have the FOUR air bag suspension and your trailing arm goes OVER the AXLE= Reyco= no problem

[jacwjames]

No trailing arms so not an issue. 

I own a 2002 Windsor 38 PKD

The 2002 Windsor is the last year that was made with the full steel cage, after that they are constructed with aluminum.   Full cage is a solid build but it is heavy which reduces the Cargo Carrying Capacity UNLESS they used higher rated axles.  My front axle is only rated 12k.  My CCC is less then 2000 lbs (my previous Class C was +4K).  So if you intend on carrying a lot of "stuff" this is something to look at.   This probably my biggest CON on my rig. 

The rest is how it is outfitted with options. 

 

FWIW, I pretty much decided to keep our rig so in 2021/22 I did quite a bit of work to my rig.  Have ~118K on the rig with plenty of miles left in it. 

 

[vito.a]

The 2002 Windsor is a great coach.  They are getting difficult to find.  It is built on the Roadmaster RM8H chassis and does not have the trailing arm issue.

In 2002 it will have the Cummins ISC 350hp engine.  Some folks prefer the slightly newer coaches with the 400hp Cummins ISL.  

Whether to buy it or not depends upon condition.  

 

[Joe Lee]

Thanks everyone!  I didn’t hear anyone say ‘stay away’ yet!

Thanks for the info on the trailing arm issue. I will look into it. 
 

Also, this coach has HWH levelers. I have only had hydraulic jacks.  Are HWH levelers a problem?

[JetAburner]

Love our '99. Heavy, but very solid. 8 bag, no trailing arm issue. Did have a cracked weld where the front/rear arm bracket is welded to the rear axle housing. Easy fix. Can easily tune it to 400hp. I understand there's injectors that will go 60hp over with no electronics. Great coach.

[Ivan K]

23 minutes ago, Joe Lee said:

Also, this coach has HWH levelers. I have only had hydraulic jacks.  Are HWH levelers a problem?

If you mean HWH air leveling like ours, I personally prefer it since there are only few extra valves and parts are available. Air leaks can be easily a DIY thing for an able body.

[cbr046]

Our ISC fuel lift pump started a slow drip shortly after 100k miles.  IMO it's a matter of "when" not "if".  The drip wasn't a big issue but sucking air was so we added a FASS fuel pump to pressurize the inlet to the CAPS fuel pump.  It's not a "gotta do" but more like insurance.  With the FASS pump we're able to completely bypass the lift pump.  There's some good articles on FASS installation.  Probably ~$750 if you do it yourself. 

As for price of the Windsor it's more about how it was taken care of.  Add the cost of new tires (age) if necessary.   

- bob

[Joe Lee]

The tires on this coach are 2016. I think they have to be replaced. I haven’t gotten a quote yet. Probably big $$$!

[jacwjames]

25 minutes ago, Joe Lee said:

The tires on this coach are 2016. I think they have to be replaced. I haven’t gotten a quote yet. Probably big $$$!

2016 tires are considered end of their useful life so replacement is a good idea, especially if you don't know how they were taken care of.

I needed tires in 2021, they were scarce, checked with three local vendors.  I wanted Toyo's but none available, of the choices I had I went with Yokohama's.   I think the three vendors were all pulling from the same regional warehouse because they all quoted the same brands and similar prices, so I picked a reputable dealer that was fairly close.   Price was ~$3600 out the door  BUT when I went to have them installed I found they were ~6 months old.  Not happy, vendor said take them or leave them he could easily sell them to some one else.  So I took them.  Seem to ride good and handling is good so I'm satisfied. 

I immediately installed a new TPMS system, I had bought a TST507 system.   My previous system did not have replaceable batteries in the sensors, will never own another system like that and eventually they were obsolete and had to get a new system.   Once it was set up it worked good, after ~12K miles I can't remember it dropping any of the signals from the sensors.   Highly recommend a TPMS, I don't move the rig until the display shows all tires are good. 

[Rich Cutler]

Just replaced my tires with Toyo 144s for $4050 drive out at Southern Tire.  Included balance and stems.

 

[96 EVO]

18 minutes ago, Rich Cutler said:

Just replaced my tires with Toyo 144s for $4050 drive out at Southern Tire.  Included balance and stems.

 

If that's for 6- 295/80's, that's an excellent price!

I was paying a $550 per tire 7yrs ago! 

[Rich Cutler]

Better than Michelin FMCA program price by a long shot.  Southern Tire does not participate in that program.

[waterskier_1]

You need to assess the upgrades and options.  Also the replacement of worn out items.  For example, the Roof A/C's will have likely been replaced, since 20 years is longer than most last.  Also the electronics - that coach likely came with a CRT TV, and a VCR.  It also is likely that it's been upgraded to LCD TV, but is it HDTV?  4K HDTV?  Blu-ray player?  Streaming player?  How about Internet access?  Then there is the Microwave, Inverter, batteries, solar, and a host of things that may have been done that will add value, sometimes in the $1,000's if you have to pay for the labor too.  You already mentioned tires.  

The coach itself is a solid coach.  But you might like to update the interior décor, carpet for wood floors, shades, and other things.  I suggest that you have a savings pot to accomplish things that may come up.

  -Rick N.  

[seadoo200hp]

Check Rv Trader and other sites to get comparable prices.  $56k seems a little high for a 2002.

[throgmartin]

I own an RV service center so I stay on top of coach prices. Wholesale auction prices have dropped recently on used coaches. Unless this 2002 is mint, it is too high priced.

As an example, my son is working on a deal for a 2005 Windsor quad slide. Low mileage, low hours on the gen set. I know this coach as the owner is a close friend of mine and I have done work on it myself. It is in showroom condition. New tires, batteries, all stainless exhaust system, new interior carpet, day night shades, etc. The coach is serviced annually by a private diesel mechanic who I know personally. The owner is so OCD he keeps a waxing journal ( he has up to 37 coats of wax applications since new). He spares no expense when it comes to maintenance. The coach is always stored indoors when not in use and is flawless. Price $ 48 - 50,000 K. If my son doesn't buy it - I will and will sell my coach.

There are far too many deals out there to be had as long as buyers take their time and look. I spent 6 months looking before I bought my coach. I missed a deal 2 years ago on a 2002 H-45 Prevost double slide that had less then 100,000 miles on it. It was flawless and I could have wholesaled it off a dealer for $ 127,000. I kick myself now. I did service work on a 2008 Sig that was a creampuff. My customer wholesaled it off a dealer lot, as is, for $ 99,000. The dealer just took it in and had parked it on the back lot waiting for a dealer prep and service. He bought it as is and drove off with a coach worth $ 75,000 dollars more then what he paid. The dealer just wanted to turn and burn it without having to touch it.

My point is this, there are many deals out there but you have to have patience and really look. Remember, never go off what other coaches similar to the one you are looking at on RV Trader and other sites for rock solid prices. Those are dream prices and what those coaches actually sell for is a whole other story.

[waterskier_1]

I agree with Chris, there are many deals out there for those who wait.  I looked for over 2 years before I found my current coach.  

As far as NADA (or Kelly Blue Book) I don't hold much value with them.  My Dad has been in the car buying/selling business since before I was born.  What one must understand about the data that they use is it comes from the dealers, resellers, and wholesalers (auctions).  There is NO provisions to incorporate Private Sales.  In the automotive world, the private sales are a small portion of the overall auto sales (talking 4-wheel cars & pickups).  But in the specific case of Monaco brands, and the general case of 10+ year old coaches, a much greater portion, likely more than any sold through the "dealer" network, are sold by Private Parties.  I'm not sure if consignment sales companies contribute to the data for NADA or KBB or not.  Therefore, a majority of sales are not even entered into the data base.  

Secondly, in the auto (again car & pickup) world, the primary "condition" discriminator is mileage.  After 3-5 years, that doesn't even make a huge difference.  There is no record of condition of the vehicles in the NADA or KBB dataset, beside mileage.  I am not sure they even consider accidents, like CarFax might provide.  Also, unless you are looking a specialty vehicles, there is no record of upgrades within the NADA/KBB dataset.  That can be a huge chunk of money, as I mentioned before.  I figure the replacement (I'm hesitant to call all of them "upgrades" since a worn out unit was replaced with a new like-unit (for example the roof A/Cs).  Same with tires, microwaves, carpet/wood floors, blinds, etc.  And then there are upgrades like Lithium batteries, solar panels, and such.  Many have upgraded Pure Sine Wave  Inverter with higher capacity.  All these can add $10,000's of value (or depreciation) to the cost of a coach with a "generic" cost.  I believe you much know what you want, and what you are looking at, or hire someone that does.  No one can judge the value of a  2002 Windsor PKDD with 96,000 miles without looking at all the repairs/replacements/upgrades either needed, or already performed.

Just my $0.02 worth.

  -Rick N.

[96 EVO]

Well, you tell a first time R.V buyer you recently replaced the MSW inverter, with a new PSW inverter, it's going to mean absolutely nothing to them!

But, you will get that cool Deer in the headlights look 😄!

[throgmartin]

I know many RV dealer's and if you get them alone and ask them they will tell you any RV, despite upgrades is worth no more then what the typical model last sold at auction. Dealers have auction price sheets and hey are updated constantly. They also have what is called the black book which is similar to the NADA book but is more realistic on prices rather then pie in the sky NADA prices.

I have stated before, my coach ( 2005 Ambassador ) has had an interior renovation and is due to have another soon. My coach came with a factory value package which added more options. I have owned it since new. It has almost every single upgrade you can put on a RR8R chassis and the house has new AC units, Monaco Watts and rear cross bars, TRW steering gear change out, Guardian plate system, all new toppers and awnings and the list goes on.

Guess what folks ??? When I sell it I will get little to nothing for those upgrades. It will still only be worth what an 05 Ambassador is worth on the day I list it for sale. I may only get a small premium for the upgrade but nothing close to what I invested. I have seen it time and again where people spend a lot of money on upgrades and think they can recoup their costs at the time of sale................... It rarely happens. If anything those upgrades will help you sell the coach quicker but they wont result in a bucket of gold like some think it will.

Car's, trucks, RV's, I am a savvy buyer and I will never pay more for any of these types of vehicles then what the market dictates with a reflection of recent auction prices.