Kongsberg CCM Alternative Restoration & Replacement - 2009 Signature

[Wildwood]

If you do have an 08 you really should not cringe!

[RCCROTTY]

2009 Sig Commander circuit board fire...any ideas as to cause?  Found replacement board, but do not want to power up new board without identifying cause.

Fire occurred when engine was started.  Coach had been sitting for 4 to six weeks and was hooked up to 50 amp shorepower, but battery banks has been turned off.  Any help would be appreciated.

[Tom Cherry]

4 minutes ago, RCCROTTY said:

2009 Sig Commander circuit board fire...any ideas as to cause?  Found replacement board, but do not want to power up new board without identifying cause.

Fire occurred when engine was started.  Coach had been sitting for 4 to six weeks and was hooked up to 50 amp shorepower, but battery banks has been turned off.  Any help would be appreciated.

This has happened before.  @Frank McElroy is the expert and can answer that correctly.  This flagged him to read post, in case he missed it...

[Frank McElroy]

28 minutes ago, RCCROTTY said:

2009 Sig Commander circuit board fire...any ideas as to cause?  Found replacement board, but do not want to power up new board without identifying cause.

Fire occurred when engine was started.  Coach had been sitting for 4 to six weeks and was hooked up to 50 amp shorepower, but battery banks has been turned off.  Any help would be appreciated.

This is a known issue. 

Happened 4 years ago.  This board is a very poor design and is fed with two 150 amp lines with only fuses on the board outputs. 

Because of the bad design, I helped the other person hard wire by hand and properly fuse a replacement including input circuit breakers and sub fuses for each section.  The replacement is still in use today with no issues.

We never found a root cause but based on the location of the fire, I suspect it related to the aux air compressor being cycled too often and board copper traces not designed to handle the load.

Here is a link to the document on our downloads files.

 

[DavidL]

23 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

This is a known issue. 

 

 

You guys did a nice job on that replacement board.

[Frank McElroy]

I posted this on another topic but I thought it should be repeated here.

There are a number of Kongsberg chassis multiplex systems out there that function just fine.  The biggest issue as I see it is a failure of one of the dash switch modules especially one of the two master modules.  If one fails, half the other slave switch modules connected to the master will no longer work.

Common reasons why a dash switch module fails:

1 - Water getting into the switch module due to an open window or in cleaning them.  There is a circuit board that generates the multiplex signals inside and just a small amount of water will short it out.

2 - Plugging or unplugging the rear data cables without first disconnection the house and chassis batteries at the battery - not just the battery disconnect switches.

3 - Very low battery voltages - the master modules can fail if battery voltages get below about 4 vdc.

Do not let any service tech troubleshoot a problem with your dash switches unless they fully understand the system.  I've seen more damage with "work arounds" causing many issues.

The large PCB in the FRB is a potential fire Hazzard because it was never properly fused.  Read the article in our files and add the two circuit breakers at the end of the article.

The circuit on the front CCM providing +5 volts to the smart wheel will eventually fail.  On the forum, there is a good discussion on how to fix this issue if your SmartWheel stops working.

[Mike Barrett]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:10 AM, Frank McElroy said:

A while back, the headlight issue was solved by finding and fixing corrosion in the headlight socket.  The CCM has current limiting circuitry that will shut off power to certain devices if current draw is too high.  That was the case with corrosion in the lamp socket.

On the cruise control issue, have you already installed the 5 volt external supply fix for the SmartWheel?  This is a common failure and an easy fix.

Thanks.  I put in led bulbs in and found the prior owner somehow left a broken bulb mount inside the headlight lens....   corrosion inside the socket itself?   I will double check.  Might be easier to install a new socket???  It didnt seem corroded when i looked earlier.   The prior owner also rigged the 12 to 5 v  And the power supply looks a little beat up.  Will test if it still putting out 5v.

Any other places suggestion.   I found a par of cheap chinese stainless scissors in the driver console when I replaced the standard 120 outlet with one with usb outlets.  Any hints on opening the access panel?

[LakeBob]

On 4/27/2023 at 8:35 PM, Frank McElroy said:

I posted this on another topic but I thought it should be repeated here.

There are a number of Kongsberg chassis multiplex systems out there that function just fine.  The biggest issue as I see it is a failure of one of the dash switch modules especially one of the two master modules.  If one fails, half the other slave switch modules connected to the master will no longer work.

Common reasons why a dash switch module fails:

1 - Water getting into the switch module due to an open window or in cleaning them.  There is a circuit board that generates the multiplex signals inside and just a small amount of water will short it out.

2 - Plugging or unplugging the rear data cables without first disconnection the house and chassis batteries at the battery - not just the battery disconnect switches.

3 - Very low battery voltages - the master modules can fail if battery voltages get below about 4 vdc.

Do not let any service tech troubleshoot a problem with your dash switches unless they fully understand the system.  I've seen more damage with "work arounds" causing many issues.

The large PCB in the FRB is a potential fire Hazzard because it was never properly fused.  Read the article in our files and add the two circuit breakers at the end of the article.

The circuit on the front CCM providing +5 volts to the smart wheel will eventually fail.  On the forum, there is a good discussion on how to fix this issue if your SmartWheel stops working.

Frank: Following the Kongsburg thread with great interest.  Now that my coach is a Kongsburg coach where everything works, I'm interested in any preventative measures to keep things that way.  I read the post regarding the board fire and the statement below: 

" I decided to add two breakers at the FRB, one for the house cable and one for the chassis. You can start with a 40A for the house and 60A for the chassis. Here is a sample picture of what you can use."

Are you comfortable with the breaker sizes he selected?   

I see he still has the power to computer running direct, without a breaker.     Wound a breaker be prudent on this line as well?

I plan on adding the 5V power supply to the wheel as well, although my wheel is fully functional.

Anything else I should consider?

Thanks!

Bob

[Frank McElroy]

18 minutes ago, LakeBob said:

Frank: Following the Kongsburg thread with great interest.  Now that my coach is a Kongsburg coach where everything works, I'm interested in any preventative measures to keep things that way.  I read the post regarding the board fire and the statement below: 

" I decided to add two breakers at the FRB, one for the house cable and one for the chassis. You can start with a 40A for the house and 60A for the chassis. Here is a sample picture of what you can use."

Are you comfortable with the breaker sizes he selected?   

I see he still has the power to computer running direct, without a breaker.     Wound a breaker be prudent on this line as well?

I plan on adding the 5V power supply to the wheel as well, although my wheel is fully functional.

Anything else I should consider?

Thanks!

Bob

Yes, I was the one who recommended the size of the two circuit breakers to Tal based on my review of reasonable circuit loads.  Tal did sell the coach but I know the new owner and he has had zero problems. 

As for the power cable going to the CCM module that's just fine because of the internal fuse protection inside the CCM module along with the electronic current limiting features of the MOSFET circuits inside the CCM that limits current draw on any circuit under 10 amps.

[LakeBob]

Thanks Frank, anything else you would recommend?

[Frank McElroy]

1 hour ago, LakeBob said:

Thanks Frank, anything else you would recommend?

I have a hunch - not proven - based on the location of where the fire started and due to frequent cycling of the aux air compressor. 

So, I recommend leveling the coach and shut off the auto level feature.  I do this on mine all the time.  If your coach won't stay level for weeks, fix the leak - don't auto level every hour or two.  Mine stays level for months.

[Tom Cherry]

8 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

I have a hunch - not proven - based on the location of where the fire started and due to frequent cycling of the aux air compressor. 

So, I recommend leveling the coach and shut off the auto level feature.  I do this on mine all the time.  If your coach won't stay level for weeks, fix the leak - don't auto level every hour or two.  Mine stays level for months.

Ditto to Frank’s comments.  My Auxiliary compressor never worked for 4 years….and being a bit “less familiar” with air leveling, I heard a friend’s…..and replaced the pressure switch.  Yes, I would drain my tanks to ZERO, but stayed level.  After a few years and reading and also discussing with Frank, I shut off the auto level or just turned off the Valid Power Gear panel.  I was also getting tired of midnight refills….and that works great.

As to the fire and over (circuit breaker) protection….I totally trust Frank’s numbers.  I have a Camelot and Monaco goofed in 2009.  They put in a 150:A CB as they “planned” to add another hydraulic system.  In 2008, they used the correct size, 80 A for the slide system.  But planned on adding a Genny slide. Instead of splitting the feed from a 200 A ANL fuse, which only fed the single hydraulic slide motor, they changed it to 150 A and I burned up my system.

It took a lot of research to determine that 80 A was correct and only recently found out that the 2008 were OK. I have corrected the 2009 prints and added a recommendation to remove the 200 A fuse in the RRB and go to a 100 A. 

After talking to Frank, I believe that the chassis fuse for the Camelot large PCB is way oversized.  The House Fuse for that board is a 60 A.  I plan to do some measuring….and correct or revise the print.

NOW for the record, there have NOT been any Camelot/Scepter fires, but the fuse size is correct for the cable size.  But the cable (s) run some 40 feet or so and are great to prevent a voltage drop.  But there was little logic in selecting the downstream load and the proper protection.

[Mike Barrett]

On 4/25/2023 at 12:07 PM, Wildwood said:

If you do have an 08 you really should not cringe!

Gosh I hope you are right.  Frank and folks - I certainly hope to meet up some day with Frank the guys on the thread and at least buy several at least one or more dinners.  Such help and guidance has been wonderful and I need to ask for more.

Prior owner(s) made some interesting adaptations and several other nits. Combine that with my limited knowledge and ooof the adventures have been plenty..... and not in a good way.

 

Getting there.  Could not find corrosion, headlight connectors (harness and bulb) appear to be very clean,.  Here is my update and next ask.  Headlight was working and now it is not - but there was the inconsistency that a loose ground would explain (see below)

 

Have the 5v power supply installed and to the smartwheel. Found some nicked wires, abrasions and some rodent chews, under the drivers control panel - fixing those. Wiper motor now works.  Adaptive Cruise will stay on, yet the drivers side headlight won't stay on and the constant on left turn signal still on.  Also causes the left side camera to display constantly as well. 

 

Tech is thinking it is either or both the Smartwheel Control module (where is it and part number and where can I get a replacement)  or the loose ground looking wire.  Found a disconnected wire that sure does look like it is a ground, need to tone it and find where it truly leads... and make sure we don't' inadvertently fry something that can't be replaced.  (5 steps a chicken vs. sorry)

 

Thinking replacing the clockspring might be a step of preventative now that the steering wheel is off etc ??? thoughts?

 

Just to be clear on my question - where is the smartwheel control module? (this is where I am dangerious) and the relays for the headlight, turn signals etc (and is that the same thing as the control moduel) I think we can figure out the loose wire and connect it appropriately.  
 

Getting there.  just don't want to screw it up now.  Again thanks for your help.

Mike

 

 

[Frank McElroy]

1 hour ago, Mike Barrett said:

Gosh I hope you are right.  Frank and folks - I certainly hope to meet up some day with Frank the guys on the thread and at least buy several at least one or more dinners.  Such help and guidance has been wonderful and I need to ask for more.

Prior owner(s) made some interesting adaptations and several other nits. Combine that with my limited knowledge and ooof the adventures have been plenty..... and not in a good way.

 

Getting there.  Could not find corrosion, headlight connectors (harness and bulb) appear to be very clean,.  Here is my update and next ask.  Headlight was working and now it is not - but there was the inconsistency that a loose ground would explain (see below)

 

Have the 5v power supply installed and to the smartwheel. Found some nicked wires, abrasions and some rodent chews, under the drivers control panel - fixing those. Wiper motor now works.  Adaptive Cruise will stay on, yet the drivers side headlight won't stay on and the constant on left turn signal still on.  Also causes the left side camera to display constantly as well. 

 

Tech is thinking it is either or both the Smartwheel Control module (where is it and part number and where can I get a replacement)  or the loose ground looking wire.  Found a disconnected wire that sure does look like it is a ground, need to tone it and find where it truly leads... and make sure we don't' inadvertently fry something that can't be replaced.  (5 steps a chicken vs. sorry)

 

Thinking replacing the clockspring might be a step of preventative now that the steering wheel is off etc ??? thoughts?

 

Just to be clear on my question - where is the smartwheel control module? (this is where I am dangerious) and the relays for the headlight, turn signals etc (and is that the same thing as the control moduel) I think we can figure out the loose wire and connect it appropriately.  
 

Getting there.  just don't want to screw it up now.  Again thanks for your help.

Mike

 

 

Mike you do not have a smart wheel control module if you have a Kongsberg chassis multiplex coach - and I think you do.  Look through previous pages on this post - You have a failing 5vdc supply and there is a procedure to fix it.

[Mike Barrett]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:40 PM, Frank McElroy said:

Mike you do not have a smart wheel control module if you have a Kongsberg chassis multiplex coach - and I think you do.  Look through previous pages on this post - You have a failing 5vdc supply and there is a procedure to fix it.

On 5/16/2023 at 11:40 PM, Frank McElroy said:

Mike you do not have a smart wheel control module if you have a Kongsberg chassis multiplex coach - and I think you do.  Look through previous pages on this post - You have a failing 5vdc supply and there is a procedure to fix it.

Replaced 5v supply.  Tested it and there is still a problem.  Testsv5 volt tobthe wheel.  No change is the failures.  

[Mike Barrett]

So what the heck is the orange jelly?  It is oozing out of several places

We have chased it all back here. 

 

Ideas????

2 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

So what the heck is the orange jelly?  It is oozing out of several places

We have chased it all back here. 

 

Ideas????

And the rest of picture 

[Frank McElroy]

1 hour ago, Mike Barrett said:

Replaced 5v supply.  Tested it and there is still a problem.  Testsv5 volt tobthe wheel.  No change is the failures.  

What testing was done that lead you to believe the 5v supply was bad?

On the picture of orange around the wires, that's a water sealant.  But, something doesn't look right.  Please post a picture farther back to I can see the whole front run bay.

[Mike Barrett]

52 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

What testing was done that lead you to believe the 5v supply was bad?

On the picture of orange around the wires, that's a water sealant.  But, something doesn't look right.  Please post a picture farther back to I can see the whole front run bay.

for $12 I just replaced it. 

Anything wider will have to be tomorrow or saturday

 

[Frank McElroy]

50 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

for $12 I just replaced it. 

Anything wider will have to be tomorrow or saturday

 

Someone has done some extensive modifications to the connectors on the CCM.  (Wires were soldered to the CCM PCB!). To help we need to know what issues you are having and go from there.  For reference, attached is a picture of what yours looked like when it left the factory.

[Mike Barrett]

Thought the front side connectors had been worked on.

More off than on, left front headlight is intermittent. All of these systems happen when the left front headlight turns off.  Which is the largest thing i see, dont know really cascades the symptoms.  Really can't tell if it's because of a jiggle from a bump in the road or a wiggle in the steering wheel or anything like that, he thought it might clockspring needing a cleaning or replacement.

The left turn indicator is dimly lit continuously, gets brighter when I turn on the headlights.  Camera system seems to want use the mirror in left mirror, i can switch to rear using joy stick in the engine display.  Vorad left side alert stays on when the headlight is off. Wiper motor operates slowly.   The cruise control is intermitent but worksnto step the engine rpm up.  Vorad following seems to work but not sure.

There was discussion of corrosion in earlier conversations and posts period but I cannot find any.

And when I was on the left side of the driver's seat noticed that the wire to the map light had been cut.  

The left turned signal bulb appears to be on its very last leg and I I'm planning replace both turn signal bulbs with led's.

 

Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.  

My 3 AM this morning desperate worker round would be to take the passenger side high beam head light wire and run it to the driver's side low beam and simply. Forego having high beam headlights.  Get some high intensity yellow led fog lights for my daytime driving lights.

If the concern is Corrosion somewhere in the The headlight circuit would disconnect the headlight cause the system to turn off the turn signal light etc and act normally as a test?

 

Again thanks a ton

Edited May 19, 2023 by Mike Barrett

[Frank McElroy]

52 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

Thought the front side connectors had been worked on.

More off than on, left front headlight is intermittent. All of these systems happen when the left front headlight turns off.  Which is the largest thing i see, dont know really cascades the symptoms.  Really can't tell if it's because of a jiggle from a bump in the road or a wiggle in the steering wheel or anything like that, he thought it might clockspring needing a cleaning or replacement.

The left turn indicator is dimly lit continuously, gets brighter when I turn on the headlights.  Camera system seems to want use the mirror in left mirror, i can switch to rear using joy stick in the engine display.  Vorad left side alert stays on when the headlight is off. Wiper motor operates slowly.   The cruise control is intermitent but worksnto step the engine rpm up.  Vorad following seems to work but not sure.

There was discussion of corrosion in earlier conversations and posts period but I cannot find any.

And when I was on the left side of the driver's seat noticed that the wire to the map light had been cut.  

The left turned signal bulb appears to be on its very last leg and I I'm planning replace both turn signal bulbs with led's.

 

Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.  

My 3 AM this morning desperate worker round would be to take the passenger side high beam head light wire and run it to the driver's side low beam and simply. Forego having high beam headlights.  Get some high intensity yellow led fog lights for my daytime driving lights.

If the concern is Corrosion somewhere in the The headlight circuit would disconnect the headlight cause the system to turn off the turn signal light etc and act normally as a test?

 

Again thanks a ton

You have a lot going on.  The best way to troubleshoot is with a voltmeter and a set of schematics.  The schematics you need are in our downloads files under electrical, wiring diagrams.  If you can't find them let me know.

With so many issues I'm suspecting a loose ground or power feed or chewed wires.  So, be sure to measure voltages vs a chassis ground and measure ground connections for a voltage drop.

Keep in mind that outputs below 10 amps are not fused but electronically current limited by the CCM. 

Also, the CCM is programmed to correct for things like a problem with a low beam headlight such as a shorted wire or corrosion or a burnt out bulb.  The CCM will compensate by turning on the high beam light.  I've seen one case were only the high beam lights worked.  The problem was that both low beam lights had wiring issues.  So, the CCM was turning on the high beams any time the low beam lights were turned on.  Once the low beam wiring was fixed, they started to work.  (DO NOT tie both low (or high) beam headlights together - they are on separate circuits and need to stay that way.)

[powerpro2000]

Just an update to Bretts Signature. As Frank said Cummins Orlando confirmed a failed ECM. Took old unit to Automotive Computer Solutions in Hialeah. They told me that too many components had failed to economically rebuild it but they could flash my ECM parameters to another ECM. I was suspicious but didn't have another option at the time since we were already a couple of weeks behind schedule to return to home in PA. Installed new ECM, got back dash gauges. Installed a multiplex light controller to temporarily get  headlights, clearance, brake and turn signal lights manually working. The coach was running OK so headed out. Not a lot of power nor boost to begin but the further I went the better it got. Shifting smoothed out after the trans relearned and went into 6th at 55. Kept it under 65 and made it to PA. I had an OBD monitor installed. Boost finally went as high as 28# with a max 420HP on a long mountain climb on I-99.  Doubt the ECM was programmed for 650HP. Also wondering the effects of no longer having the remainder of the "program" Brett had installed with what I suspect is now a standard 400HP ECM. I cannot recommend Automotive Computer Solutions for many reasons.

I called M&M to see if they had any Roadmaster CCM's. They said they did but proudly told me they were $18,000 each!! I asked if they could reprogram a Workhorse CCM to a Roadmaster spec. Was told they couldn't because although they physically looked similar there were many differences in internal components. I have my suspicions regarding that. I am sure the programming is different because of the functional requirements but from a manufacturing prospective doubt there would be two significantly different products designed with the same form factor to do essentially the same thing.

I bought a couple of new Workhorse CCM's at a good price for parts if needed. Now that I have some time to devote to this I will take Frank up on his kind offer to see if we can get this system functional again.

 

[Brett63]

1 hour ago, powerpro2000 said:

Just an update to Bretts Signature. As Frank said Cummins Orlando confirmed a failed ECM. Took old unit to Automotive Computer Solutions in Hialeah. They told me that too many components had failed to economically rebuild it but they could flash my ECM parameters to another ECM. I was suspicious but didn't have another option at the time since we were already a couple of weeks behind schedule to return to home in PA. Installed new ECM, got back dash gauges. Installed a multiplex light controller to temporarily get  headlights, clearance, brake and turn signal lights manually working. The coach was running OK so headed out. Not a lot of power nor boost to begin but the further I went the better it got. Shifting smoothed out after the trans relearned and went into 6th at 55. Kept it under 65 and made it to PA. I had an OBD monitor installed. Boost finally went as high as 28# with a max 420HP on a long mountain climb on I-99.  Doubt the ECM was programmed for 650HP. Also wondering the effects of no longer having the remainder of the "program" Brett had installed with what I suspect is now a standard 400HP ECM. I cannot recommend Automotive Computer Solutions for many reasons.

I called M&M to see if they had any Roadmaster CCM's. They said they did but proudly told me they were $18,000 each!! I asked if they could reprogram a Workhorse CCM to a Roadmaster spec. Was told they couldn't because although they physically looked similar there were many differences in internal components. I have my suspicions regarding that. I am sure the programming is different because of the functional requirements but from a manufacturing prospective doubt there would be two significantly different products designed with the same form factor to do essentially the same thing.

I bought a couple of new Workhorse CCM's at a good price for parts if needed. Now that I have some time to devote to this I will take Frank up on his kind offer to see if we can get this system functional again.

 

Jim, send me your email and I will send you some info. I am all but positive I found a new roadmaster rear CCM while I was working on everything. Never found a new front one though, but pretty sure the front one is ok. I know the rear is bad, but the front one checked out ok during all of my tests.

[powerpro2000]

PowerPro2000@hotmail.com

[Mike Barrett]

The one thing i forgot to make clear is that the turn signal in the mirror stays on all the time. Ignition off and keys out, it is still on.  The only time it is off is when i turned off the batteries in the battery compartment.   Once when i turned them back on, the turnsignal was off, turned on the headlights with the dash switch and the headlights stayed on for an instant and then every thing went back dysfunction.   Sort of points to the headlights and some failure in that circuit

Edited May 20, 2023 by Mike Barrett