Kongsberg CCM Alternative Restoration & Replacement - 2009 Signature

[DavidL]

45 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

Interesting that "low voltage . . . . can do lots of damage" - is that exclusive of a lightning strike?

- bob

Lightning because of it's awesome power is the obvious one...but any circuit that is power sagged, rebooted incessantly,  unregulated (more than the prescribed voltage), shorted, or opened causes issues with sensitive electronics devices.  Power regulation, noise filters, UPS, etc are all part of a well engineered system.  Generally if it's original devices and wiring, and kept in good condition (clean, secure grounds, solid connections, fuses maintained and of right values etc), you don't have to worry about these details.  But if you are modding the system (ie: putting solar in, swapping generators, etc) then these items are considerations for the more advanced DIY'r.

 

Most all issues I have seen are just due to lack of maintenance.  My power washer trigger finger twitches when people post pictures of their battery bays and all the dirt and corrosion on all connections....this is where the low voltage problems begin...

Edited October 4, 2023 by DavidL

[Frank McElroy]

7 hours ago, cbr046 said:

Interesting that "low voltage . . . . can do lots of damage" - is that exclusive of a lightning strike?

- bob

On Monaco coaches with a Kongsberg chassis multiplex system, the dash switch modules are powered by the house batteries and they have a low voltage spec down to 4VDC no longer than 5 minutes.  And yes, the batteries did go dead.  That's why especially on a chassis multiplex coach, never let the batteries go dead.  If you do, you run a risk of damaging the master switch modules.

[DavidL]

17 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

On Monaco coaches with a Kongsberg chassis multiplex system, the dash switch modules are powered by the house batteries and they have a low voltage spec down to 4VDC no longer than 5 minutes.  And yes, the batteries did go dead.  That's why especially on a chassis multiplex coach, never let the batteries go dead.  If you do, you run a risk of damaging the master switch modules.

Frank, wouldn't it make sense to put a "smart relay" on the 12 volt circuit to detect if less than "11.5v" to shut down the circuit entirely and cleanly?  And some logic not to power cycle rapidly the relay if voltage floats back to 11.6....

 

Without me knowing the exact circuit (like I am sure you do), I summise that this could be inserted to replace the current fuse for the circuit is, plus a ground wire.  Certainly the current fuse value would be in line with the "smart relay" and before the relay.

 

Example

https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Channel-Isolation-Support-Trigger/dp/B00LW15D1M/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=ZYXH6NYE1AF&keywords=5v+low+voltage+shutdown+relay&qid=1696526200&sprefix=5v+low+voltage+shutdown+relay%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

 

But that one might not consider the voltage bouncing above threshold...but it's the idea.

Edited October 5, 2023 by DavidL

[Frank McElroy]

Actually it is the 12 volt input circuit from the CCM module feeding the master switch modules that has the obscure 4 volt minimum spec.  The shut off should have been part of the CCM design and that might very well be the case - right now I just don't know other than finding the low voltage spec in the Eaton documentation.  Remember, the coach also took a lightning strike.

In any event, allowing electronics to be left on when batteries go dead in never a good idea and the chassis multiplex system right now doesn't have an option to be turned off.  I think a better option would be to be able to turn the system off.  I'm looking at simple options to do that.  An added benefit would save on the huge parasitic load of the Kongsberg system.

[Tom Cherry]

21 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

It's time for an update.  Some very good news - I was able to fully repair one of the master switch modules but need help from someone with a chassis multiplex coach to complete the repair of the other switch module. 

More specifically, I need to get a copy of the software program stored on the dash switch module pictured below.  If anyone out there wants to help by loaning me the module pictured below - maybe a spare your are saving or the one from your coach if in storage - please send me a private message.  In exchange, should you ever have a failed Master Switch module, on your coach, I'll repair the internal circuit board for free.

I'm sure there are some curious minds out there that want to know what I did to repair the Master switch modules.  The PDF file describes what I did - warning - it's very technical.

Eaton E30 module repair.pdf 142.62 kB · 22 downloads

Scotty, another moderator had chimed in.  i have been getting updates from Frank about his progress and the unbelievable obstacles that he had tom overcome to get this done.

To out this in perspective as a sideline observer, Frank has developed a repeatable method of removing the main CPU of a Master Slave switch.  He was able to read the program or the firmware programmed or flashed into that chip (think the main chip or a motherboard or PC). Then he ordered a new chip, desoldered the defective one.  Then resoldered a new, unprogrammed on….NOTE these are surface mounted devices…not pins into a socket or “eyelet” contacts.  Then reprogrammed it.  It is exactly like new….as it left the factory.  He has also identified every component on the board and mapped or drawn a schematic of the board.

All this done with the assistance of at least 3 different programs, which he configured together to analyze and upload the program and then stored it and reflashed a new chip.

I believe that this repair has NEVER been accomplished on the main brain (there are TWO…Master 1 & Master 2).  We are watching HISTORY….  

An ATTABOY seem like such an understatement !!!

[DavidL]

3 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Actually it is the 12 volt input circuit from the CCM module feeding the master switch modules that has the obscure 4 volt minimum spec.  The shut off should have been part of the CCM design and that might very well be the case - right now I just don't know other than finding the low voltage spec in the Eaton documentation.  Remember, the coach also took a lightning strike.

In any event, allowing electronics to be left on when batteries go dead in never a good idea and the chassis multiplex system right now doesn't have an option to be turned off.  I think a better option would be to be able to turn the system off.  I'm looking at simple options to do that.  An added benefit would save on the huge parasitic load of the Kongsberg system.

Edited my post for 12 volts....

Is there a central fuse for the K system brain?  And does that same 12v circuit power up the receivers / sub brains?

[Frank McElroy]

I wish life was that easy.  The CCMs are via at 150 amp breakers direct from the batteries and the sleep mode feature that would have shut down the master switch modules was internally bypassed inside the front CCM.  So, not as easy as one would think.

[DavidL]

I would just have to assume that the logic side of the system isn't fused by 150 amp breakers....

Or is it really that poorly engineered?

At that point, break a trace and put in a control circuit...

 

worse case

https://www.amazon.com/Stinger-SGP32-Battery-Relay-Isolator/dp/B001HBYXVS/ref=asc_df_B001HBYXVS/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312111914138&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4857213668156472117&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017042&hvtargid=pla-555119062217&th=1

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by DavidL

[Frank McElroy]

Utilizing the sleep feature on the front CCM would require opening a sealed module, cutting a board trace, redirecting a wire to an external connection and then resealing the unit under very low humidity conditions to prevent moisture condensation.  Can it be done sure, but it sure isn't easy to do right.  When the front CCM was designed, the never sleep option was hard wired internally so switch modules always stay active.  The rear CCM does have the sleep option wire a fused wire going to the battery disconnect latching relay.  The better option might be to cut power to the dash switch master modules.  However, that would need to be confirmed since these modules get other power input signals from the CCM.  Unintended consequences could bite you.

[Brett63]

One issue I ran into  was I did allow the house batteries to drain down unbeknownst to me. We were driving and apparantly the BB relay failed while driving and the house batteries were not charging. We did not know that until it started getting dark abou 45 miles from our next campground. When I went to turn the headlights on I barely had any lights. The battery boost would not work and the Gen would not start. When we arrived at the campground I was able to put the slides out and then I called Frank, where I learned the CCM's were powered by the house and not the chassis. He explained that in the beginning the chassis supplied the power but becasue of the huge parasitic draw the chassis batteries would be dead rapidly, so Monaco moved the power to the house...That works well untill the house goes down and you don't know it. 

With all of that said, the next day the coach fired up and the house charged via shore all night. Everything on the coach still worked as it should and we did another 500 mile day back to FL where one week later we were hit by lightening thus killing the system.

I am postivie Jim is going to have a great coach when this is all done. Frank is awesome and we were convinced he could fix it. We just were not able to hold on that long as it was our home. Now we live in a London Aire and the ole girl Sig is gonna get to see the country side again. Brings a smile to my face.

[Paul J A]

We ALL have been the benefactors in this situation Brett endured. Happy that there is an excellent successful resolution in site. ALL of the Kongsberg Chassis Multiplex System coach owners must be elated.

[Tom Cherry]

Just now, Paul J A said:

We ALL have been the benefactors in this situation Brett endured. Happy that there is an excellent successful resolution in site. ALL of the Kongsberg Chassis Multiplex System coach owners must be elated.

Frank get the KUDO's for this and his perserverance....as well as all the input and help and actually "Shipping him parts".  I have known him for a LONG time and I know how tenacious (spelled OCD...LOL), plus his unbelievable intellect and the ability to trace pesky wires and then tell, or research, how some signal goes in and out a circuit board...and his talking in Acronyms (MSFOT, PIC, PLC, CPU, TCM, ABS and a thousand more).  We are fortunate to have him highly involved here.....

What he has gone through to "skin the cat" on this one is far beyond "gonna figure it out".  If you look back at the dates and such.....he was way more involved in CCM's and helping folks out before this thread started.  But, as it grew and the challenges grew....his "There has got to be a way" just got stimulated.  I kidded him and told him that eventually, he would disect and fix or repair a Master Switch.  He has fixed so many Intellitec boards on the 2006 Dynasty that I have lost count.  

There is NOT, and I know a little bit about the "landscape" as I talk to a local tech and he also tells me what he and his buddies are experiencing, another source out there like Frank.  

SO...yes, every Kongsberg CCM owner should be elated.  Now, Frank still has to get the program for the second master and then will attack the other components....but that, I think, should be fairly easy.

He actually built or wired up a complete CCM system from the Switches to the slave (rest of the switches) to the CCM units and their outputs...so in effect, he had an electronics lab setup of the wiring of the entire CCM system and could make things work or simulate...so push or turn on a switch....then the CCM unit sent out the power to that circuit.

His recent posts about the wake up made me chuckle....as that was one of the last pieces of the puzzle.  The CCM needs to be "awake" and what awakes it.  

So, yes....CHEER and sleep better...  eventually there will be a total repair procedure....

[Frank McElroy]

Thanks for the kind words.  As I await a volunteer to loan me a master switch module so I can copy the software program, I've turned my attention to the 9 slave switch modules.  These all have the same circuit board, just different software.  Of the 9, 5 test good and I was able to download the software.  I'm sorting out the other 4 to see which components are bad and if the software is corrupted.  Repairs are now moving along quite nicely.

[LakeBob]

Thank you Frank for all the support you have provided me personally and for the outstanding  ongoing work on the CCM and Eaton switches.
 

If I wasn’t leaving for 6 months in 8 days my master switch module would be in your hands….

[Frank McElroy]

On 10/4/2023 at 3:10 PM, Frank McElroy said:

It's time for an update.  Some very good news - I was able to fully repair one of the master switch modules but need help from someone with a chassis multiplex coach to complete the repair of the other switch module. 

More specifically, I need to get a copy of the software program stored on the dash switch module pictured below.  If anyone out there wants to help by loaning me the module pictured below - maybe a spare your are saving or the one from your coach if in storage - please send me a private message.  In exchange, should you ever have a failed Master Switch module, on your coach, I'll repair the internal circuit board for free.

I'm sure there are some curious minds out there that want to know what I did to repair the Master switch modules.  The PDF file describes what I did - warning - it's very technical.

Eaton E30 module repair.pdf 142.62 kB · 29 downloads

 

Time for another update.  I actually needed both the master in the previous post picture plus one of the slave switch modules that had corrupted software. 

I want to give a special thanks to @RVingShawn  who loaned me the two needed working switch modules out of his coach.  I now have all the required programs for both master switch modules and all the 8 slave models on a Kongsberg CCM chassis multiplex coach.  Tomorrow, the remaining set of repaired and tested switch modules will be sent back to Jim - the new owner of Brett's old coach.  I appreciate the others who offered to loan me their working modules but timing of availability didn't work out.

I also need to give a very special acknowledgement to. @Wildwood   who months ago located a rare working master switch module from a Monaco owner who sold his coach but had spare master and slave switch modules for sale.  This allowed me to develop the circuit diagrams, understand the circuit and repair the defective master and slave modules from known working modules.

Also,   @powerpro2000 , Jim, who bought Brett's coach was able to source some of the slave switch modules that really helped to identify which circuit boards went with which module. (A previous shop had them all mixed up - but that's a topic for another discussion).

So - This project is basically finished.  Going forward, all Eaton E30 switch modules on Monaco coaches with a Kongsberg Chassis multiplex system can now be repaired.

[Tom Cherry]

28 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

 

Time for another update.  I actually needed both the master in the previous post picture plus one of the slave switch modules that had corrupted software. 

I want to give a special thanks to @RVingShawn  who loaned me the two needed working switch modules out of his coach.  I now have all the required programs for both master switch modules and all the 8 slave models on a Kongsberg CCM chassis multiplex coach.  Tomorrow, the remaining set of repaired and tested switch modules will be sent back to Jim - the new owner of Brett's old coach.  I appreciate the others who offered to loan me their working modules but timing of availability didn't work out.

I also need to give a very special acknowledgement to. @Wildwood   who months ago located a rare working master switch module from a Monaco owner who sold his coach but had spare master and slave switch modules for sale.  This allowed me to develop the circuit diagrams, understand the circuit and repair the defective master and slave modules from known working modules.

Also,   @powerpro2000 , Jim, who bought Brett's coach was able to source some of the slave switch modules that really helped to identify which circuit boards went with which module. (A previous shop had them all mixed up - but that's a topic for another discussion).

So - This project is basically finished.  Going forward, all Eaton E30 switch modules on Monaco coaches with a Kongsberg Chassis multiplex coach can now be repaired.

UNBELIEVABLE….I would use an expletive for more emphasis, but the software would have a hissy fit.  What you have accomplished, and the thiught and ingenuity as well as the “step back…do any end run” when you hit s roadblock is really a feat that few know the complexity of.  
 

Thanks again, from myself personally, who bugged you to explain and made diagrams to get the concepts in my head.  It is late and I want to read the PDF.  It is safe to say, that you have “found a cure” and very few will totally understand the precision of your electronics skills as well as the amount of pure stubborn brainpower that was expended….

way to go….

[Brett63]

"Also,   @powerpro2000 , Jim, who bought Brett's coach was able to source some of the slave switch modules that really helped to identify which circuit boards went with which module. (A previous shop had them all mixed up - but that's a topic for another discussion)."

I am NOW going to give a little of this story as the discussion. Some of you may know, as Frank may have shared offline with you this information while others would not have a clue. But here it is from me.

While Frank was frantically working away he called me early on with a few questions which led to some unbelieveable, yet totally believeable new found knowledge. What I am going to share cannot be proved by physical knowledge it can be proved by Franks electronic knowledge as software and hardware simply do not lie.

I will not mention a specific shop name (let's just say the shop ha a name similar to a great candy that melts in your mouth and not in your hands) To meet the insurance requirements I had to remove both CCM's and all of the switch modules and send them to the "candy shop". After a couple days they called and said both CCM's worked but ALL of the switch modules were bad. I found that very odd as Frank and I knew without doubt that simply was not correct. By this time we had diagnosed exactly what systems had failed as he and I had spent hours and days maping, chasing wire, taking readings and doing it over and over. There was a time I think I slept with my multimeter. I actually had made 45' test leads so I could do continuity checks from one end to the other. Anyway, I knew what I had been told was total BS. Anyway shortly after I received that info and shared it with the insurance company the coach was totaled. I called the "candy shop" and requested they send my components back. The stated they would send everything back the next day. I received all my components back a few days later and checked to make sure everything was there. I then had to put the CCM's back in the coach as it hd to be driven a half mile or so in order to hook it to the wrecker. All of the switch modules were left in the box and put in the basement and the coach went way.

Now comes the good part, and what went on. Frank called me and informed me that the switch modules, MOST of them were not my modules and could not have been my modules. This was found out by Franks test system he had built. There was no physical or electronic way these modules were in my coach.....With that said that only leaves one possible explaination. When I told the "candy shop" my coach was totaled and asked them to send me my parts they knew exactly what modules worked and which one didn't and simply replaced my working parts with their known bad parts and sent me the bad parts back. See the whole time I had been talking with that shop from time to time and they had expressed MANY times that they were not able to get their hands on any working modules and that was what they needed in order to be able to figure out how to make repairs.....This was the treasure trove they were seeking and knowing the coach was totaled and no one would ever know they made the swaps. Yes I am officially on record making this statement. Beside the theft of my working parts, this presented Frank with many more hurdles he had to endure to make this system work again.

I am not telling the story to declare that the "candy shop" stole my working components and replaced with non working, I am shareing this because it shows even more tenacity of Frank in the background. So not only did he come up with a way to repair this system, he did it with his hands tied behind his back. I am sure he went through more than one bottle of wine during all of this....So make surre you doubley thank him, and think twice before reaching out the the "candy Shop" in Ohio. Yes, it still pisses me off.

[cbr046]

1 hour ago, Brett63 said:

I am not telling the story to declare that the "candy shop" stole my working components and replaced with non working, . . . .

I wouldn't have thought to mark the components but it's a good idea to mark anything you send to anyone if you expect it to return.  Photos might be better if you can see date codes on various components. 

Good ending to a great story . . . more like adventure!  Kudos to Frank for being a resource for the Kongsberg chassis folks. 

- bob

[Brett63]

39 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

I wouldn't have thought to mark the components but it's a good idea to mark anything you send to anyone if you expect it to return.  Photos might be better if you can see date codes on various components. 

Good ending to a great story . . . more like adventure!  Kudos to Frank for being a resource for the Kongsberg chassis folks. 

- bob

I didn't mark and would not have known had Frank not been able to read the circuit boards. I may have Franks side a little wrong, but once he started diagnosing my actual parts, after Jim bought the coach it was determined that each module was numbered on the circuitry such as Master, 1, 2, 3, 4....etc. In the system there are two master modules and a series of slaves numbered consecutivly. Instead of mine being sequential I had something like 4 #4's, 3 #2's.....ect. That could not be and could have never worked. Mine all worked. So he knew by that alone that the modules had been switched out. I didn't do it and the only other custody of my parts was the "candy shop" and they had many broken ones as they told me personally and said they were working feverishly to find working modules so they could do similar to what Frank did. 

I assure you that once they figure it out, if they do and are able to do a fix it will be thousands and thousands of dollars becasue they know they have you by the ballz.

[Frank McElroy]

Inside each switch module is a circuit board.  The same board is used for the two master switch modules.  The only difference is the software loaded onto the 28 pin microchip to make it master #1 or #2

Same for all the slave modules.  The circuit board is identical - the only difference is the software loaded to make it a slave 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5.

When a circuit board is removed and replaced, the rocker switches must also be removed to properly reinsert the LEDs back into the board.  Almost all the modules were returned with the LEDs loose and board digital codes not matching what should be in the switch module.  In effect the circuit boards inside the switch modules were swapped out.

[Tom Cherry]

39 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Inside each switch module is a circuit board.  The same board is used for the two master switch modules.  The only difference is the software loaded onto the 28 pin microchip to make it master #1 or #2

Same for all the slave modules.  The circuit board is identical - the only difference is the software loaded to make it a slave 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5.

When a circuit board is removed and replaced, the rocker switches must also be removed to properly reinsert the LEDs back into the board.  Almost all the modules were returned with the LEDs loose and board digital codes not matching what should be in the switch module.  In effect the circuit boards inside the switch modules were swapped out.

I should NOT comment...and Frank may hide this.  He confirmed my suspicions that a trusted source, was not exactly trustworthy.  YES, they seem to have knowledge and have actually given seminars.  However, the more I learn about the charging systems, the Intellitec EMS, the Intellitec MPX (Hybrid like mine as well as full scale CPU) and also the "proprietary" plethora of the Intellitec Boards used on the 2006 Dynasty and up.....the more I KNOW that we have way more expertise and superior technology and electronics skills HERE.

I spent a LOT of time chasing a "tactile" ghost on a MPX switch pad in 2018.  Frank and the late "Hot Rod", Bill Groves" were really helpful.  Frank gave Bill instructions of how to reprogram the switch and we (THEY!) isolated it to one particular switch and not the key pad as a whole.  Frank modified one of his "spares" and shipped it to me and I changed it out.  It has worked flawlessly.  I had spent a LOT of time with one of the "Candy Shop" owners....and they really were NOT much help....which was disappointing.  When I called to give them feedback, they were NOT receptive and said that I was lucky and that I really needed a NEW, CUSTOM BUILT keypad....and "Oh YEAH"....we have seen some ghost Tactile issues.  NOW, why didn't they tell me that when I was troubleshooting???  The ghost is that randomly, but usually once a day, a switch will just "TURN ON" or OFF.  

So, read the comments carefully....

As to the backstory....  Frank actually "breadboarded" or set up an ENTIRE functional CCM system in his "lab".  All was well...  BUT, it was a "sleepy" and sly critter...  He and I talked, as I was curious about what he would do....and ALWAYS CONFIDENT that he would conquer the beast. He finally figured out where the "Now be a good boy and go to sleep...mommy will wake you" wake up signal was coming from....no small feat.  Sometimes, he sort of like reminds me a a SPOCK BRAINED James T. Kirk (Star Trek) who figured out hack the Kobayashi Maru.😴

[Brett63]

To all Admins, thank you for not deleting this portion of my story. Frank and I talked extensively about this when he first discovered and I vowed to not say anything UNTIL he was able to make repairs, which at the time was an unknown time.

Needless to say this really pissed me off becasue I know how the "candy shop" opperates, is very unwilling to help and charges unsuspected people fortunes for simple repairs such as the smart wheel 5v system that Frank and I fixed on mine for about $40 total. I know some that have contacted me personally saying they paid in excess of $5K to have that repaired. And then for them to turn around and steal from me in order to help them take from others just really hit a nerve.

This is not an attack on a business, this is MY story and I know for certain they told me they read this board all the time and "laugh" at all the rediculousness people come up with trying to repair sophisticated systems...This story goes with this coach and the issues I had and tried to overcome and it is MY story. So thaank you again to the Admins for leaving this portion and I hope it gets to stay here. My hat's off to everyone here that tried to help me, helped me and helped Frank. This is probably the most truely intelligent group of problem solvers I have met anywhere and that is appreciated. 

[vito.a]

Wow, congratulations Frank!   I am impressed.  

Is Brett's (now Jim's) coach back up and all systems working?

And should I put 2008-2009 Signatures back on my shopping list?

Again, we are so lucky to have Frank as a resource.  

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

On 10/24/2023 at 6:10 AM, Brett63 said:

 When I told the "candy shop" my coach was totaled and asked them to send me my parts they knew exactly what modules worked and which one didn't and simply replaced my working parts with their known bad parts and sent me the bad parts back.

Reminds me of an old adage " If you don't know your jewels you better know your jeweler "

A TV program took jewelry to several dealers NY diamond district dealers and some dealers returned the pieces with lesser quality jewels substituted for originals. 

I'm guessing the word " totaled " is what made them feel it was ok to keep your good parts.

[Paul J A]

23 hours ago, vito.a said:

Wow, congratulations Frank!   I am impressed.  

Is Brett's (now Jim's) coach back up and all systems working?

And should I put 2008-2009 Signatures back on my shopping list?

Again, we are so lucky to have Frank as a resource.  

 

I would.  And hope Frank has a plan for the parts availability from a successor, or designated additional coop entity.  Replace the components NOW, instated of later.