Kongsberg CCM Alternative Restoration & Replacement - 2009 Signature

[NSBOB1]

1 hour ago, Brett63 said:

There was nothing missing from the coach. Why would you say that. The switch pods were removed (unplugged) and in a box in the basement. That is a 30 min job to plug those back in. 

Brett, no malice is intended.  You've been straightforward and wonderful to us, and I didn't mean to cause any offense.  What I was saying was that there was only one picture on the Copart listing where someone who had only seen those photos before bidding could see that there were open spaces where the control heads would normally be.  This could mean that if someone were to bid on it without going to look at it, they might think that the ENGINE NO COMM might be the only issue and completely miss the only clue on the Copart site that more might be wrong than just that.

As you said, the control heads are all present and accounted for inside the coach, they're all in a box waiting to be reinstalled.

Sorry for the confusion, and I apologize for the lack of clarity earlier.

What I'm super curious about is if Jim bid on it without knowing about the multiplex controller issues.  I'm trying to learn how these auctions work, and also how people who partake in auctions think so I can try and be an informed bidder next time if there is one.

Kevin and I took an entire day out of our lives to go inspect the coach to make sure we know what we were getting into, and it perplexes me how someone could spend a hundred grand after fees on something they don't know more about than just the sparse photographic evidence they have to work with.  I'm absolutely curious as to the train of thought on this one, and I recognize it's probably rude of me to ask about it, but it's important enough to me that I'm doing it anyways.

Noel

[Brett63]

7 minutes ago, NSBOB1 said:

Brett, no malice is intended.  You've been straightforward and wonderful to us, and I didn't mean to cause any offense.  What I was saying was that there was only one picture on the Copart listing where someone who had only seen those photos before bidding could see that there were open spaces where the control heads would normally be.  This could mean that if someone were to bid on it without going to look at it, they might think that the ENGINE NO COMM might be the only issue and completely miss the only clue on the Copart site that more might be wrong than just that.

As you said, the control heads are all present and accounted for inside the coach, they're all in a box waiting to be reinstalled.

Sorry for the confusion, and I apologize for the lack of clarity earlier.

What I'm super curious about is if Jim bid on it without knowing about the multiplex controller issues.  I'm trying to learn how these auctions work, and also how people who partake in auctions think so I can try and be an informed bidder next time if there is one.

Kevin and I took an entire day out of our lives to go inspect the coach to make sure we know what we were getting into, and it perplexes me how someone could spend a hundred grand after fees on something they don't know more about than just the sparse photographic evidence they have to work with.  I'm absolutely curious as to the train of thought on this one, and I recognize it's probably rude of me to ask about it, but it's important enough to me that I'm doing it anyways.

Noel

Noel, no harm my friend. When I read your post I had to scratch my head for a second becasue I knew you and I had talked numerous times and I knew you knew the switch pods were there and accounted for. It struck me wrong I guess. But I completely understand and there is no issue.

I spent a year on this coach doing everything I could to make it work. I asked on here repeatedly for any assistance. Frank and I spent literally HOURS on the phone and probably hundreds of texts and emails trying to figure something out and diagnosing. I would never do anything mallisiously to this rig as my wife and I hoped it would be our forever rig. We even cleaned the indside as if someone were buying it before the wrecker came and got it. Honestly the coach was as perfect inside and out as a 2009 could have been.......except it didn't work....I will offer to Jim my assistance in anyway I can the same as I did to you. I am glad to see it was purchased and not parted and I hope the coach finds good roads to travel on forever.  Sorry if I took what you said personally, it wasn't meant that way at all. But I do appreciate you speaking up and clarifying, that is stand up. I wish I had met you and your friend prior to throwing in the towel....but I had reached the end of my road. 

[powerpro2000]

On 4/9/2023 at 8:27 AM, Mike Barrett said:

I would love to get my hands on a replacement - particularly if some additional interfaces could be worked in (say browser based management through a Bluetooth connection).  I suspect there may be other K owners that might bite on this.  We have a 2008 signature (new to us in Oct 2022) and this event has put a big hitch in our giddy up for updating/improving the coach.   I get a custom motherboard would be spending, I for one would be very willing to look at a project to sponsor what would have to be a small batch of boards.  There may be others out there.

 

Just now, powerpro2000 said:

 

Well, I have a dead CCM that could be used to reverse engineer something

[David Pratt]

6 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Did & Done… PM if anyone objects or has a better title.  I like fully descriptive Topic titles.

I believe this long post on this coach has run its course to the conclusion that it was totaled, sold and now has a new owner. 

I agree with Tom and a Title Change would be appropriate.. the suggested Title of; "2009 Signature Restoration - Kongsberg CCM " could work and would hopefully cover most search's for those that would be interested in the progress of the restoration of this coach.

 I would like to see the post stay on Topic about the progress of the repairs and not go back to re-hashing allthe issue in the prior posts..

Whatever the collective minds decide  is ok with me!

[DavidL]

3 hours ago, powerpro2000 said:

 

Well, I have a dead CCM that could be used to reverse engineer something

A Dead CCM doesn't "talk" so it can't be used to reverse engineer communications.  The wiring isn't rocket science.  Most all of that can be deduced from the wiring diagram and function.

And for someone that has a live CCM, the issue is risking it to reverse engineering of "breaking / bricking" something.  Very unlikely but the downside is significant (totaled coach).  If a spare was discovered, then sure.  But I think all the spares have been consumed in repairs across the years, hence the problem with yours.

[KevinG]

A direct, drop in replacement would require a massive investment for the engineering and design of a new controller. It could be done, and Parker does it, but it's for large volume production. I don't believe the cost warrants it. It would be much easier to develop a kit with existing components and some rewiring instructions to adapt to a new controller.

Like David said, most of the functions that the CCMs are doing are simple and easy to figure out. You flip the switch for the headlights and the CAN message from the switch modules changes to show the switch is on. The front CCM reads this message and turns the headlights and parking lights on. The rear CCM does the same for the tail lights. That's easy to setup in a new controller. 

Some things get a little more complex. The brake lights for example. The front CCM sees the signal from the brake pressure switch on the air line and knows that the brakes are applied. The rear CCM has the outputs to the brake lights. There is a CAN message that is sent from the front to the rear CCM to tell it to turn on the brake lights. It wouldn't take more than a minute to figure out what this message is if you can see the CAN messages between the controllers. Just push the brake pedal and see what changes. It could be in the CCVS message. The engine is going to be looking for this message for the other cruise control functions, but it could be in something else. 

If you replace both CCMs, then the communication between the two isn't an issue, because you have to write the program for both anyway and you can use whatever message you want. This would also open up the option of using whatever switches for the inputs you wanted because you can setup the controller to read whatever message they are sending. Or bypass the switches all together with a touch screen or simple switches. I'm not sure the adjustment for the pedals needs to be on the controller. I can see the shades, because you may want to be able to close them from another part of the coach, but the pedal adjustment? I don't see the need to adjust the pedals from the rear bedroom. 

A bluetooth interface is possible. IQAN GO does this with the IQAN line of controllers. It does require more work from the developer because the app needs constant updating as the phone software changes. I've also worked with controllers that had a user interface that was web based. You could connect anything that displayed a webpage to the network and pull up the interface. It worked well to create a set of pages for a service tech to see what was going on with the machine.

The issue with most of the commercial products is just going to be the cost for the development license. IQAN Design is $1500 for a license. It's great software and really easy to use. The controllers can't drive the high current loads directly, and would need to drive relays to turn headlights on for example. But the programming is very user friendly.

Parkers other line of controllers. The CM3033, is designed for the on highway market and has outputs that can drive things like headlights directly. It is programmed in PEDS, which is CoDeSys, if anyone is familiar with that. There is no license required for this software, so that makes it a nicer option. It's not as user friendly but it's quite powerful.

The advantage to driving things light the headlights directly from a controller output is the feedback for error detection. The controller can tell if the circuit is faulted and can then send a warning to the dash to let you know that the left headlight is out for example. You can also vary the output to the lights, so you can run the high beams at 30% during the day as daytime running lights. You can also set a delay off for the lights, so they stay on for X seconds after you turn the coach off. Things like that are features you can gain by using a controller and some software. 

The CCMs in these coaches are also part fuse block with feedback to the CCM so that it can tell if the fuses are blown. The only thing I see on those fuses that is critical is the ABS_ECU and you can tell if that is functioning by looking for the CAN messages from it. 

There are quite a few features that were designed into these coaches to make things easier to troubleshoot for people that have no knowledge of how any of this works. 

[Mike Barrett]

Having been following this topic.   Dave or Frank posted a note about intermittent headlights. 2008 Signature w/ the Kongsburg

My situation isn't a total failure... yet... I hope...   Intermittently, the driver side headlights (not fog), driver side turn signal and wipers get minds of their own.  The turn signal will turn on solid - dim but solid (arrow in the mirror) and will flash when I use the stem on the steering column.  Headlight goes out - including DRL, cruise control gets finicky sets, then doesn't then will.  And of course the camera display follows the turn signal but I can get it back to the rear (toad) through menu selections.   When the turn signal returns to normal - all is good. 

I checked the wire harness to the headlights/turn signals and all looks good there - I didn't multi meter it yet. 

I saw a post earlier that expressed a long chased work about headlights around, but no conclusion as to cause.  

I am not the most knowledgeable buy around relays and switches, I can pretty much check for voltage but unless it says "relay" I really don't know what I am looking at.   

Anything you can do to point me in the right direction for even testing would be very very much appreciated. 

[Frank McElroy]

34 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

Having been following this topic.   Dave or Frank posted a note about intermittent headlights. 2008 Signature w/ the Kongsburg

My situation isn't a total failure... yet... I hope...   Intermittently, the driver side headlights (not fog), driver side turn signal and wipers get minds of their own.  The turn signal will turn on solid - dim but solid (arrow in the mirror) and will flash when I use the stem on the steering column.  Headlight goes out - including DRL, cruise control gets finicky sets, then doesn't then will.  And of course the camera display follows the turn signal but I can get it back to the rear (toad) through menu selections.   When the turn signal returns to normal - all is good. 

I checked the wire harness to the headlights/turn signals and all looks good there - I didn't multi meter it yet. 

I saw a post earlier that expressed a long chased work about headlights around, but no conclusion as to cause.  

I am not the most knowledgeable buy around relays and switches, I can pretty much check for voltage but unless it says "relay" I really don't know what I am looking at.   

Anything you can do to point me in the right direction for even testing would be very very much appreciated. 

A while back, the headlight issue was solved by finding and fixing corrosion in the headlight socket.  The CCM has current limiting circuitry that will shut off power to certain devices if current draw is too high.  That was the case with corrosion in the lamp socket.

On the cruise control issue, have you already installed the 5 volt external supply fix for the SmartWheel?  This is a common failure and an easy fix.

[Ivylog]

Agree buying vehicles at Copart can be a big risk, even if you inspect before bidding. The only ones I’ll buy without inspecting first are hail damaged as there’s a good possibility they we’re running before the dents, but the dents can be worse than in the pictures. Still driving a 4X4 Ford PU with dents in the hood (looks worse if you wax) that’s still worth what I paid 8 years ago. Now the one I made out of 2 wrecks took more work than anticipated… lots of little things broken.

[Guest Ray Davis]

2 hours ago, KevinG said:

people that have no knowledge of how any of this works

That describes me, no idea how it works, but after reading your post I'm actually beginning to see a glimmer of light.              

[Mike Barrett]

1 hour ago, Frank McElroy said:

A while back, the headlight issue was solved by finding and fixing corrosion in the headlight socket.  The CCM has current limiting circuitry that will shut off power to certain devices if current draw is too high.  That was the case with corrosion in the lamp socket.

On the cruise control issue, have you already installed the 5 volt external supply fix for the SmartWheel?  This is a common failure and an easy fix.

I will look at the sockets.  I have to admit I have no idea how/what the 5 volt external supply fix would be.  Should I google it?  I will search the forum as well.  The link below seems like it is informative - but honestly is about 80% beyond my knowledge base

 

https://www.imminet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TROUBLESHOOT-SmartWheel.pdf

Edited April 15, 2023 by Mike Barrett
more info

[Frank McElroy]

35 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

I will look at the sockets.  I have to admit I have no idea how/what the 5 volt external supply fix would be.  Should I google it?  I will search the forum as well.  The link below seems like it is informative - but honestly is about 80% beyond my knowledge base

 

https://www.imminet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TROUBLESHOOT-SmartWheel.pdf

The +5VDC is required for the SmartWheel functions to work.  This is a common failure and the first sign is that the cruise control or wipers become flaky.  Here is a link to the fix that I developed for Brett.  Many others have done the same.

 

[Frank McElroy]

After seeing all the comments, it's time for me to put a few things into perspective.

Brett and I have been communicating throughout this whole ordeal.  Our relationship started with SmartWheel issues and based on his detailed data, I came up with the external +5 VDC external power source to the SmartWheel input voltage to solve a problem with a failing 5VDC supply from the front CCM.  It solved his problems with the wipers and cruise control not working and has been used to fix countless other coaches with the Kongsberg chassis multiplex system.

After the lightning strike, Brett and I worked together to diagnose the problem.  Based on his measurements, we identified that there was a problem with the J1939 databus.  There were shorted components.  One was the engine ECM.  (The new owner has already confirmed this with Cummins and that module is being replaced.)  It is very likely that once replaced, the communication error will be resolved and the dash gauges will start to work.

Now, for the 2 Kongsberg CCM modules and the multiplex switch modules.  These were sent to M&M for evaluation.  With M&M using the Cadet software (thanks to Brett, I also have this software), they found that the CCM modules worked just fine but the switch modules were dead.  That is very interesting data because the CCM modules do not work in the coach.  This means that either there is a wiring issue between the 2 CCM modules, or inputs like turn signals and brake lights weren't tested - only dash switches were tested via the Cadet software.

As for the failed switch modules, with the help of other forum members, I recently acquired working master and slave switch modules and sorted out the digital codes being sent to the CCM.  Since I now have working master and slave switch modules, It's very possible that I could identify and replace the failed components on the bad modules.  If bad modules could be repaired, that would be a big step forward.

My point is let's not jump to a conclusion that the whole Kongsberg chassis multiplex system needs to be replaced.  It's possible that the defective components could be repaired.  I'm able to read the digital codes generated by the CCM modules and the Eaton dash switch modules.  There is an option to replace internal defective components.  I can do both.  Internal parts are available. Offline, I spoke with the new owner and gave him options if he wants to explore repairing the existing system.  Let's see how this all plays out.

 

[Brett63]

Frank and I always thought and said to each other that we believed there was a fix. We both also agreed that if we had a working master and slave switch pod he could probably do much more diagnostics. However, at the time we did not have any working switch pods and asking someone to donate theirs was a bit far fetched...lol 

As for M&M saying I had two properly working CCM's, in my opinion is a load of crap. I say that becasue I know what measurements I was seeing and how I was isolating. I also know what worked and what didn't work. So I don't believe they did much of a test other than to confirm none of my switch pods worked, which Frank and I also knew. You have to remember, He and I were diagnosing near daily for months. I had 50' leads made up just so I could do resistance testing on wires between the cockpit and anywhere on the coach. He and I were both keeping log books of exactly what readings I was getting under any circumstance. 

I was able to get both he and I a copy of the Cadet software and we both got the associated and needed peripherals so that we could check. I could connect to both CCM's but would drop connection within a couple seconds, only to reaquire and drop. So We were never able to get Cadet to connect long enough to actually see. During all of this I also had a good friend that is a Freightliner mechanic that specializes on the J1939 side of heavy trucks. He was helping me walk through the diagnostics of the backbone system and the ECM side of things as well as providing me with manual documents and interpreting all of my readings while I was also keeping Frank informed, while he was also helping from his end. 

During all of this I was simultaneously talking with Kevin at REV Coburg and two local mobile techs that were Monaco techs when lazydays East was the Monaco service center. All were confirming exactly what Frank and I were seeing, my readings, and our diagnosing. 

I did find what I believe is a brand new rear CCM on a shelf at __http:/www.veurinksrv.com/__but I did not confirm the actual part number. 

Frank may actually now hold the missing piece he and I needed and may actually be able to effect repairs. So like he said, hold on and let's see how this plays out. At the time the coach was totaled this piece of the puzzle simply didn't exist and we had reached the end of anything we could do. I could litterally write a book on everything he and I did, that I researched, the people I talked to, the companies I interacted with, the possibilities....etc of this coach saga. At the end of the day there are only two things I can absolutely confirm, I became a Kongsburg system guru to include how virtually every wire and cable ran and where every component lived and how to access them and it was not fixable at the time I had it before insurance totaled it, which they did not do lightly. 

The true irony to all of this story though, is that I actually started this repair process a couple weeks before the 2021 Monaco Rally at Lazydays because I had time and simply wanted to find a fix to a delinquint system that I knew at some point may do someone some good. Little did I know that just a couple months later that someone would be me.

[KevinG]

Last I heard Jim was driving it up from Florida to Georgia. I'd still like to be able to get on the coach and connect my computer to it. I can replicate the code that Frank worked out for the switches with the tools I have and we can see what on that front CCM works or doesn't. I should also be able to see if the messages from the other controllers are on the CAN network, like the transmission, ABS, Vorad and see if those controllers look ok. Hopefully Jim made it ok and I can meet up with him next weekend. He was heading to a place about 30 minutes from me.

[DavidL]

1 hour ago, KevinG said:

Last I heard Jim was driving it up from Florida to Georgia. I'd still like to be able to get on the coach and connect my computer to it. I can replicate the code that Frank worked out for the switches with the tools I have and we can see what on that front CCM works or doesn't. I should also be able to see if the messages from the other controllers are on the CAN network, like the transmission, ABS, Vorad and see if those controllers look ok. Hopefully Jim made it ok and I can meet up with him next weekend. He was heading to a place about 30 minutes from me.

So, that tells me that either Cummins replaced the "shorted" ECU and the powertrain is now fully functional (good news!), or they found something else (like a shorted CAN bus) or Jim had a slow drive from Orlando to Georgia.

Edited April 18, 2023 by DavidL

[woodylmiller]

Thank you Brett for your answer about my wiring question on the power supply.  Glad to see this topic going.  Especially since I have the dreaded Kongsberg.  Everything has been able to be fixed so far.  Kevin in Coburg is very helpful on these matters but it's bee hard talking to him since REV seems to be guarding the techs and not letting them get on the phone much anymore.

Thanks to everyone who contibutes to this topic.  I'm sure there are many of us that can benefit from the discussions and solutions.

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

[Mike Barrett]

16 minutes ago, woodylmiller said:

Thank you Brett for your answer about my wiring question on the power supply.  Glad to see this topic going.  Especially since I have the dreaded Kongsberg.  Everything has been able to be fixed so far.  Kevin in Coburg is very helpful on these matters but it's bee hard talking to him since REV seems to be guarding the techs and not letting them get on the phone much anymore.

Thanks to everyone who contibutes to this topic.  I'm sure there are many of us that can benefit from the discussions and solutions.

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

Let me 2nd the sentiment another 50 or so times.

[LakeBob]

20 minutes ago, Mike Barrett said:

Let me 2nd the sentiment another 50 or so times.

Let me 3rd the same sentiment another 100 or so times!

[vito.a]

I just went through all 8 pages of this thread.  Very interesting!  We love our 2004 Signature but were hoping one day for a newer one.  I sure hope you guys figure out a fix.   

[woodylmiller]

One last question, I hope.  For the supply voltage, 12vdc to 5vdc, does the power to feed the power supply need to be switched? or can it be a constant "on" supply?  From the picture it looks like it is a constant "on" for the supply voltage; 12vdc.  Thanks,

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

[Brett63]

1 hour ago, woodylmiller said:

One last question, I hope.  For the supply voltage, 12vdc to 5vdc, does the power to feed the power supply need to be switched? or can it be a constant "on" supply?  From the picture it looks like it is a constant "on" for the supply voltage; 12vdc.  Thanks,

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

Just go with constant on. Bring power right from the hot lug in the FRB.

[woodylmiller]

23 hours ago, Brett63 said:

Just go with constant on. Bring power right from the hot lug in the FRB.

Thank you much.

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

[Ivylog]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:31 PM, vito.a said:

We love our 2004 Signature but were hoping one day for a newer one. 

I lucked out with a early 08 Navigator… bought before learning of this disaster 5 years ago. Would have sold it 2 years ago at a good profit if it had the “K” system. On another forum I cringe when someone posts they just bought a 09 Dynasty or above. Do you post ”Should of joined before buying!”?

Edited April 25, 2023 by Ivylog

[Tom Cherry]

43 minutes ago, Ivylog said:

We love our 2004 Signature but were hoping one day for a newer one. 

I lucked out with a early 08 Navigator… bought before learning of this disaster 5 years ago. Would have sold it 2 years ago at a good profit if it had the “K” system. On another forum I cringe when someone posts they just bought a 09 Dynasty or above. Do you post ”Should of joined before buying!”?

Sorry for not understanding.  Your profile has a 08 HR Navigator.  The brochure for it does not list the K’g CCM….however, Monaco has been know to add features.  Do you have the K’g CCM?

as to your question, when new or existing members ask about a MH that potentially does (like a very late 2008) or is a 2009 Dynasty and above, there are posts that advise that if it does have the K’g CCM, to read (and some are linked) up on it to understand the complexity and the issues.