Kongsberg CCM Alternative Restoration & Replacement - 2009 Signature

[cbr046]

An interesting concept.  Imagine pulling into a campground with bad electric!

- bob

[Ivan K]

1 hour ago, cbr046 said:

An interesting concept.  Imagine pulling into a campground with bad electric!

- bob

Just start the generator 🙂

[Paul J A]

On 2/11/2023 at 11:19 AM, Ivylog said:

Look at you FRBox, unfortunately it probably looks like this;

Thanks Dick. I was going to do that today. IT says IT ALL!

[Michel Galarneau]

17 hours ago, KevinG said:

https://www.mcicoach.com/coach/electric-series/features/

That's the coach version. They estimate a range of 225 miles with a 520kWhr battery system. Gives a rough idea of range/battery capacity for something that size. 

Wow, it would take a couple of months to do the Florida-Montreal trip... especially towing a trailer!

[jimc99999]

On 4/9/2023 at 9:30 AM, ak49er said:

How wild of an idea would it be to consider this "Nuclear Option".

CCM fries, no commercial or produced solution available. Sell Engine (mine is a low mileage Cat C-15), sell off any useable Chassis Multiplex Items to  the next guy who may be able to use them. Convert Coach to an EV.

I have a 12.5kw Generator on board already, there is a lot of unused roof space to mount more solar panels, more if I pull off the unused SAT TV systems. The rig tends to be hooked up to Shore Power 50% of our trips.  I know I would lose my Vorad System and its Cruise Control Functions, but I believe it would be easier to interface a Cruise Control back into the system using a GPS sensor and the motor feedback data, etc. No need for a "Jake Brake" as one could have regenerative braking. Plenty of room for more batteries in the Engine Compartment once all that Cast Iron is gone, and they along with the drive motor and motor controller would compensate for the weight loss of pulling the motor. I'd of course miss the growl of that big diesel, and for range isn't that big of deal, we are touring from state to state, not trying to get across the country in a set time.

Any ideas why this couldn't' be a final option?

The Tesla semi runs a little less than 1 mile per Kwh. Someone also mentioned an EV coach platform that that has a 225 mile range on 500 Kwh. If you look on evwest.com, batteries (even used Tesla model S batteries) are around $300/Kwh, so if you wanted 500 Kwh you'd be looking at close to $150K for batteries alone. 

Obviously Tesla and Hyundai aren't spending $25K on batteries for the Model 3 or Ioniq, so at the manufacturer level the batteries are far cheaper. But even if you could get the batteries for $150/Kwh, you're still looking at $75K in batteries, and that's before you get into a 350hp+ electric motor, control systems, etc. 

You also have to consider your 12.5Kw generator is probably rated for 8Kw or less continuous, so you're looking at less than 200Kw per day output. Similarly, you can pull a max of 8Kw continuous from a 50amp RV connection if you set up properly to fully utilize the separate circuits. If you need to run your AC units, subtract about 1.5Kw each. Then you have to consider not all RV parks have power systems capable of allowing you to use 8Kwh all day long, some are limited to 30amp plugs, etc. 

It would be nice if it was a better option, but right now it's expensive and somewhat limited in usefulness. 

On the plus side, you'd use about 0.5 gph on your genny at around 8Kwh continuous, so with the  generator being able to run at an efficient rpm, you'd travel at about an effective 12-15 mpg. But at 0.5gph usage, you'd have 12-15 miles per 2 hours so you'd have a lot time stationary. 

I've seen a lot of people mention they travel no more than 200-300 miles per day, so if you replaced the C15 with a 30Kw generator, you'd be getting close to feasible. Running both generators would allow you to generate almost 50% of the power you use rolling down the road so you could probably get away with 250Kwh of battery, maybe less, depending on how much travel vs resting time you required. 

And all that is not even considering how to integrate a motor strong enough to push the rig up the mountains. You'd need something in the 400hp+ continuous output range, definitely not cheap or easy.

Edited April 10, 2023 by jimc99999

[Wildwood]

After all the attention Brett’s rig has gotten from the lightening strike, which we should all agree is a very one off experience.  I would like to take a poll of anyone here that has had actual issues with their Kongsberg system, with the brain or any of the switches that it controls?  Looking forward to your feedback on your experiences😊

[David Pratt]

I got involved with the Kongsberg System back in 2014 when a good friend purchased an 08 Beaver Marquis with the System. The coach had several issues with the chassis electronics and most could not be resolved. He lost all the smart wheel functions, no headlights and no wipers. I was able after many hours labor do a work around and got them working  again. You could not turn the Aquahot off using any of the switches and the only way to shut it down was to remove the fuses. Never did find the issue that was causing the problem. With the headlight switch turned off all of the clearance lights stayed on very dim. You only would notice them at night, but we were not able to find the cause. The coach had ABS/ATC issues that were intermittent. There were many small issues with the System that were never resolved.

The Straw that broke the Camels Back was when the CAT C-15 Engine ate an injector and destroyed the engine. After eight months the engine was repaired thanks to his extended warranty and he sold the coach. I pity the individual who owns it now.

[Frank McElroy]

2 hours ago, David Pratt said:

I got involved with the Kongsberg System back in 2014 when a good friend purchased an 08 Beaver Marquis with the System. The coach had several issues with the chassis electronics and most could not be resolved. He lost all the smart wheel functions, no headlights and no wipers. I was able after many hours labor do a work around and got them working  again. You could not turn the Aquahot off using any of the switches and the only way to shut it down was to remove the fuses. Never did find the issue that was causing the problem. With the headlight switch turned off all of the clearance lights stayed on very dim. You only would notice them at night, but we were not able to find the cause. The coach had ABS/ATC issues that were intermittent. There were many small issues with the System that were never resolved.

The Straw that broke the Camels Back was when the CAT C-15 Engine ate an injector and destroyed the engine. After eight months the engine was repaired thanks to his extended warranty and he sold the coach. I pity the individual who owns it now.

Years ago, the first issue that showed up with the chassis multiplex coaches was a problem with the smart wheel controls.  Today there is a fix that works very well.  The issue is that the steady +5 VDC from the CCM module to feed the smart wheel keypads would not stay at 5 volts but sag to about 4.8 volts or lower when a keypad was pressed.  Adding a separate 5 volt supply fixed that issue.  The two data lines from the SmartWheel keypads are analog.  This means that a steady 5 volt reference voltage is critical.  For about $20, plus some fuses, the SmartWheel issues have been fix for many a chassis multiplex coach.  There are a few threads posted on this repair.

[woodylmiller]

I have the 12vdc to 5vdc device.  For the installation I have a question.  My wires are labled J126 and J127.  These are the correct wires, correct?   Is there a need to place a load across the wires coming from the CCM after splicing the power supply to feed the smartwheel?  Just curious what the CCM reaction might be to those wires being cut.  Thanks,

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

[powerpro2000]

Brett,

I am the gambler that has acquired your Monaco. I would love to connect with you regarding the coach. 

Jim

powerpro2000@hotmail.com

[Chargerman]

Good to hear that you are here Jim. Please keep us up to date on how you make out with it

[powerpro2000]

Thanks. I will be relying heavily on the vast expertise on this site to be successful with this project.

[Brett63]

3 hours ago, woodylmiller said:

I have the 12vdc to 5vdc device.  For the installation I have a question.  My wires are labled J126 and J127.  These are the correct wires, correct?   Is there a need to place a load across the wires coming from the CCM after splicing the power supply to feed the smartwheel?  Just curious what the CCM reaction might be to those wires being cut.  Thanks,

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

Woody, no, the CCM does not care. Cut 126 and 127 clean and wire them to your 12v-5v converter. The CCM will be just fine.

59 minutes ago, powerpro2000 said:

Brett,

I am the gambler that has acquired your Monaco. I would love to connect with you regarding the coach. 

Jim

powerpro2000@hotmail.com

Sent you an Email Jim. 

[DavidL]

4 hours ago, powerpro2000 said:

Brett,

I am the gambler that has acquired your Monaco. I would love to connect with you regarding the coach. 

Jim

powerpro2000@hotmail.com

Frank and I figured you would show up here at some point.  Congrats!  nice coach.  Please keep us up to date on your fix it adventure.  Glad it didn't go to a scrapper.  So, what's the plan?  Did you have it towed out?  How far?

[powerpro2000]

I had it towed off the Copart lot to just outside the gate. I didn't feel the tow driver was qualified enough to transport a coach that size. He did not know how to charge the suspension so I had him drop it there. I charged the batteries, it started, so I drove it to Cummins in Orlando. It is there now. It runs but is on power inhibit. My plan is to take it to my son's in McDonough GA. Will work on it there. Hope to talk to a couple of the guys on here about various approaches to solve the Kongsberg problem. I am an electrical engineer but not up to speed on some of the latest systems. Wish I had found this site before I acquired it. Someone else probably would own it. Now to try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

[Brett63]

1 hour ago, powerpro2000 said:

I had it towed off the Copart lot to just outside the gate. I didn't feel the tow driver was qualified enough to transport a coach that size. He did not know how to charge the suspension so I had him drop it there. I charged the batteries, it started, so I drove it to Cummins in Orlando. It is there now. It runs but is on power inhibit. My plan is to take it to my son's in McDonough GA. Will work on it there. Hope to talk to a couple of the guys on here about various approaches to solve the Kongsberg problem. I am an electrical engineer but not up to speed on some of the latest systems. Wish I had found this site before I acquired it. Someone else probably would own it. Now to try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

That is impressive if you drove it to Orlando as it would not shift out of first gear when i drove it out of the resort to get it to the wrecker that took it to Copart. Also there were no working lights on front or rear, to include brakes or turns. But glad you got it somewhere.

[Tom Cherry]

As a casual observer, but a Moderator... I am curious if the regular contributors here would object to a title change....something link.

2009 Signature CCM Restoration

It more accurately, then depicts what is going.  HINT....what ever David wants will probably weigh heavily...

BUT, if you guys don't want the title changed.....then it will stay as it....

[powerpro2000]

5 minutes ago, Brett63 said:

That is impressive if you drove it to Orlando as it would not shift out of first gear when i drove it out of the resort to get it to the wrecker that took it to Copart. Also there were no working lights on front or rear, to include brakes or turns. But glad you got it somewhere.

It shifted to 5th. I didn't go very fast. You are right, no signals. My wife followed me closely so there would be no surprises. Did it over two days using side roads.

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

2 hours ago, powerpro2000 said:

I had it towed off the Copart lot to just outside the gate. I didn't feel the tow driver was qualified enough to transport a coach that size. He did not know how to charge the suspension so I had him drop it there. I charged the batteries, it started, so I drove it to Cummins in Orlando. It is there now. It runs but is on power inhibit. My plan is to take it to my son's in McDonough GA. Will work on it there. Hope to talk to a couple of the guys on here about various approaches to solve the Kongsberg problem. I am an electrical engineer but not up to speed on some of the latest systems. Wish I had found this site before I acquired it. Someone else probably would own it. Now to try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The towing service you used, did you call them or were they sent by a towing service? With Coach-Net seemingly not the same as they were before being sold, FMCA has a towing service for members, $147/year.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[NSBOB1]

My question for Jim is if you knew the extent of the damage to the multiplex control systems before bidding on the coach?  Also whether you went to inspect it beforehand and saw all the control heads pulled out, or whether it was purchased sight unseen because you thought the only problem was the ENG NO COMM failure which is a rather easy fix comparatively?  I think the Copart pictures were highly misleading in that manner, you'd really have to be looking to notice the control heads were missing.  It would have been extremely helpful to have more information on the mechanical and electrical issues for bidders on the Copart site before bidding it up so high.

[Scotty Hutto]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

As a casual observer, but a Moderator... I am curious if the regular contributors here would object to a title change....something link.

2009 Signature CCM Restoration

It more accurately, then depicts what is going.  HINT....what ever David wants will probably weigh heavily...

BUT, if you guys don't want the title changed.....then it will stay as it....

I agree a more descriptive title would help. how about:

2009 Signature Restoration - Kongsberg CCM

I’d like to retain the reference to the Kongsberg CCM, as that’s what makes this thread unusual and interesting to so many.  

[Guest Ray Davis]

23 minutes ago, Scotty Hutto said:

I’d like to retain the reference to the Kongsberg CCM, as that’s what makes this thread unusual and interesting to so many.  

I think so too,  Kongsberg seems to be the magic word here,  and maybe multiplex system.  I'm thinking of those doing a search, and what words they might use.

 

15 hours ago, powerpro2000 said:

Thanks. I will be relying heavily on the vast expertise on this site to be successful with this project.

Jim,  I hope you do rely on and stay closely connected to this site.  Any documentation, stories, thoughts, pictures, or any other things are of interest to all of us and could be the avenue for other coaches to be rescued.

[Brett63]

3 hours ago, NSBOB1 said:

My question for Jim is if you knew the extent of the damage to the multiplex control systems before bidding on the coach?  Also whether you went to inspect it beforehand and saw all the control heads pulled out, or whether it was purchased sight unseen because you thought the only problem was the ENG NO COMM failure which is a rather easy fix comparatively?  I think the Copart pictures were highly misleading in that manner, you'd really have to be looking to notice the control heads were missing.  It would have been extremely helpful to have more information on the mechanical and electrical issues for bidders on the Copart site before bidding it up so high.

There was nothing missing from the coach. Why would you say that. The switch pods were removed (unplugged) and in a box in the basement. That is a 30 min job to plug those back in. 

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, Scotty Hutto said:

I agree a more descriptive title would help. how about:

2009 Signature Restoration - Kongsberg CCM

I’d like to retain the reference to the Kongsberg CCM, as that’s what makes this thread unusual and interesting to so many.  

Did & Done… PM if anyone objects or has a better title.  I like fully descriptive Topic titles.

[DavidL]

4 hours ago, NSBOB1 said:

My question for Jim is if you knew the extent of the damage to the multiplex control systems before bidding on the coach?  Also whether you went to inspect it beforehand and saw all the control heads pulled out, or whether it was purchased sight unseen because you thought the only problem was the ENG NO COMM failure which is a rather easy fix comparatively?  I think the Copart pictures were highly misleading in that manner, you'd really have to be looking to notice the control heads were missing.  It would have been extremely helpful to have more information on the mechanical and electrical issues for bidders on the Copart site before bidding it up so high.

Hi NSBob1, That is part of the salvage vehicle experience.  You NEVER know really what you purchased.  You are hopefully buying it with the risk of the unknown at discount.  I just watched a YouTube depicting the adventure of buying a $2Mill McLaren supercar that was in a flood...the buyer "lost his shirt" on the car, but offset some of that from the huge number of YouTube views....

Its buyer beware.  No way does Copart have any background with the vehicle issue (and certainly not the repair).  and no way would they take on the liability of trying to be that expert (which they can't possibly be).

My last salvage wreck was very disheartening when I first saw it in person.  MUCH worse than what I interpreted from the auction pictures...but it's now fixed and usable and we are having fun with it after LOTS of work.

Even if the purchaser had found this site, and spoke to the several people that were directly involved with it...it's still broken.  There are still unknowns.  Lightning travels fast.  The electronics modules are both expensive and unavailable.  The knowledge to fix is scarce.  It's definitely a gamble that the buyer has to bear.

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by DavidL