Rear Passenger side air bag issue

[Ivan K]

50 minutes ago, Les Hurdle said:

HI Ivan,

Yes and yes in order to release the airbags.

I'll have to check but am now wondering if the voltage is less than 12 hmmmm and if so how to correct it.

Then the black tube part is the actual coil that pulls the spring loaded plunger. You have 4 wires on one of the connectors because the 'extra' 2 wires loop over to the other connector so that both coils get the same power at the sane time. Yes, make sure you get good power to both connectors, polarity does not matter. BTW, there must be the same coil in both units and if you have an ohm meter, put it on their connectors and compare, I would expect somewhere around 10-15 ohm each.

[Les Hurdle]

Hi.  Maybe someone replaced one of the solenoids but they aren't the same and so far I can't find any.

I figured the wiring as you suggest...... but the loop is very long for some reason.

I'll know more tomorrow.

 

L

 

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, Les Hurdle said:

Hi.  Maybe someone replaced one of the solenoids but they aren't the same and so far I can't find any.

I figured the wiring as you suggest...... but the loop is very long for some reason.

I'll know more tomorrow.

 

L

 

KIP has changed their part numbers.  They made special runs of BOXES of solenoids for Monaco and labeled them.  That PN could be Monaco's PN.  REV probably doesn't have it....or the support person never looked.  REV calls our units "LEGACY".

I could NOT read all the information.  BUT, if the solenoids are all the same, then look at the label.  I think I saw the orifice size.  

NOW.....this is risky....or maybe NOT.  If you THINK you have a problem with ONE solenoid, then pull the LEFT side one (the same one) and try it.  IF that fixes it....FINE.  BUT IF NOT...then there is an Electrical issue.  Swapping parts, ONE AT A TIME....NOT in Mass is a proven and oft used method to isolate mechanical vs electrical issues.

NOW, if you DO find that it is a bad solenoid....I would call KIP and give them the info on the side...such as 12 VDC, Orifice Size, whatever and see if they have a similar part number.

The OTHER option....  Call REV's Repair center in Oregon. Ask for PARTS.  Tell them the brand and all the info on the stick on label.  Ask the parts guy if they have a substitute....then buy them.  This is not exactly a NASA installation.  

Looked at your valves again.  The orifice size is listed and the watts and the voltage.  The 2 wire valves are single OPEN CLOSE.  The three wire valves are reversing ports....as in, there MAY (should) be three different air inlets/outlets.  

If you do some research, even Amazon has the Norgreen KIP valves and repair kits, you should be able to get parts.  You can also call Kleen-Rite (google them).  Odds are they can tell you, if you take a clear picture of each one...sounds like you have two different valves....as in 2 wire vs 3 wire.  Their tech support, probably, had done this before....

Good Luck....

[Les Hurdle]

 

Hi Tom,

In my searches I did not find Norgreen.  KIP flat out said they would not supply to individuals....

 

I'll try a different accent today

 

L

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 minute ago, Les Hurdle said:

 

Hi Tom,

In my searches I did not find Norgreen.  KIP flat out said they would not supply to individuals....

 

I'll try a different accent today

 

L

 

Les,  YES, you may have tried KIP and they did the USUAL....this was a CUSTOM VALVE SOLD TO AN OEM....call the OEM.  Well, the OEM ain't talking.  Be generic and use KIP Air Valve and the Orifice size or the voltage.  There are scads of pictures and info out there.  Norgen OWNS KIP....

https://cdn.norgren.com/pdf/05642_IMI_KIPBrochure_M2WEBSingle.pdf

Look at this.  You have a SERIES 1....that is the first thing you need to know.  The rest is simple.  It is a certain orifice size (on the label).  It is a certain voltage and a certain wattage....also, I think....on the label but your pictures did not show an entire label.

Then go through the catalog for the Series 1.  It is an ON and OFF solenoid.  Closed is the NORMAL STATE.  Give it 12 VDC...it OPENS...  NOW, that assumes from your posts, that ALL the valves have the same number.  BUT, you commented on one valve having 3 wires.  It should be a different PN....but it is, but we don't know from your posts or pictures, what it looks like or any information.

That is how you chase these things down.  There is not, unfortunately, any KIP info in our parts list.  If you are persistent, you will find the exact KIP part number you need....that is why I suggested you call one of their big distributors.....  

Once you find the right valves...assuming they are BAD....then post and @Frank McElroy will add to the parts list.

At this point....you do NOT know whether it is a bad valve or electrical signal.  The ONLY WAY to know is to swap valves...and I THINK you know which one doesn't work....so swap that same valve from the other side.  WORKS....then valve.  DOESN'T WORK....then electrical.

That's it...  
 

OK....did a SEARCH.  Try using KIP....and then TOPICS.  BINGO.  We DO have some info....

Suggest that you, @Les Hurdle, read this thread.  It gives a lot of information that you asked for.  BUT, again.  Valve or Electrical.  Only YOU can do that and tell us.

Let us know. This should start you on a good path.

 

[Les Hurdle]

Hi Tom, Ivan,

Given valves are not my thing !

Is this what I'm looking for?

 

KIP_Valves_S1_9-29.pdf

[Les Hurdle]

att Frank

@Frank McElroy

I went through any number of companies and would up with OneHydrualics in TX. 281 941 2310 [Liam]..... very helpful and found what hopefully is what I require......... even if not so, if you are not aware of this co  they may be of help to others. 

[Ivan K]

I'm still not sure how are these two valves different from each other? Is one missing the black cylindrical solenoid or what exactly is different? That would be weird.

From the catalog you would be looking for a valve rated for 12V, NC (normally closed) and with the same port thread size as your existing fitting and exhaust, guessing 1/4" NPTF (?) but you would have to confirm that. I would have no clue as far as the orifice size etc to get a full part number. But Google gives options for 2WNC 12V NC valve.

Alternatively, the two airlines could be T-ed into the working solenoid but would need check valves on both lines.

If just the solenoid was bad or missing (?), it could likely be substituted by a different one of same size to fit the housing.

[Les Hurdle]

Batt on coach shows 12.68v...... reading on line to the solenoid is 11.25v !!

Does the solenoid require at least 12v.... if so, then here's the problem........ how to increase beyond 11.25?

 

 

[Ivan K]

Check the positive lead on connectors against frame ground. If the same reading, bad connection where ever the positive comes from and goes through. If voltage increases against frame, bad ground in connector lead path. Don't know if your switch controls ground or positive but you would know by now how the switch is wired and whether it is a suspect. Still does not explain why only one valve would work.

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, Les Hurdle said:

Hi Tom, Ivan,

Given valves are not my thing !

Is this what I'm looking for?

 

KIP_Valves_S1_9-29.pdf 1.55 MB · 2 downloads

Yes….as I posted earlier and gave you the link.  You have a SERIES 1….  Just need to understand the orifice and “fitting” sizes and orientation. Also….figure exactly how many of one function and how many of another.  The valves are simple….but you have to know how they are configured….as in, what Monaco was doing….and the electrics

Back on point…unless you have the #chematic and or wiring….which I don’t have….playing swap a valve and test….woukd be my approach.  No sense in ordering a bunch of new ones….that won’t function because of an electrical issue.  

YES….rebuilding or replacing normal wear items is good….but it ain’t gonna fix an electrical issue.

That said, the voltage drop is a little more than I would have suspected.  Does the valve open or close?  Trace the wiring. There ain’t no magic “POT” to turn up.  The drop indicates a high resistance connection.  Now….the question.  If the PowerGear/Valid controller up front….is sending a signal all the way to the back where the valve is….yes 35 plus feet of wire makes a nice resistor.

So, have you measured the voltage on the SAME VALVE on the side that is working?  If it is 11.25 VDC, then….it ain’t an issue.

BTW….Did you reach up under the upfront Valid Controller, or lift it out…..then pull the harnesees…..and then reseat.  A poorly seated pigtail or connector is a common occurrence.  Just food for thought….

[Les Hurdle]

Apologies........... I had a 'musical' download going and did not use the link.

I now see what it is........... thank you.   These solenoids have a 'rubber' insert instead of a spring?

However, when you say Valid Controller.......... not in the manual, do you refer to the plate which holds the dump switch etc?

Ivan mentioned ground.......... from hot to chassis ground a slight increase to 11.34v...........  I understand resistance in wires etc etc....... I've looked for an answer on-line as to what lower voltage will a 12v solendoid work........ didn't find an answer....... is there a low point?

Also, bearing in mind for some reason my coach has a solenoid with a spring and one with a rubber insert.  When a 12v source is connected they both work [individually], the spring is super fast, the rubber 'dribbles'. 

All new to me.

[Happycarz]

Les, on my coach with the Lippert/PowerGear leveling system, the wires from the dump switch goes to both the one front dump valve and the rear two valves. The one 12v wire going to the rear splits to powered the rear two solenoids. 
 

Reassemble the solenoids, air lines and electrical connectors. Air up the coach, then dump the air. Is the problem still there? Take the black airlines and swap them.  Don’t swap anything else.  One thing at a time. Is the problem still there, or is it the other side that is not going down?

I’m sure you tried this, I might have missed it, put a wedge under the dump switch, so it is dumping. Those are 100% duty cycle Norgren Kip valves, so don’t worry about leaving switch on while testing.  Go to rear and verify you have 12v going to both valves.  Then check the ground wire eyelet where it is grounded. Remove screw to clean eyelets, screw and metal that it is screwed into. I will try to follow along here. 
 

I have been using those Norgren Kip solenoids for 25 years.  They hold up very well. As a side note the 06032 I number on them is the zip code for Farmington, CT, their Corp headquarters.  
 

If you determine that you have a faulty solenoid/valve, I will have you PM me with your address and I will send you one. I upgraded mine to ones with larger orifrices to dump quicker. I would be happy to donate one to you. 

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

18 minutes ago, Les Hurdle said:

Apologies........... I had a 'musical' download going and did not use the link.

I now see what it is........... thank you.   These solenoids have a 'rubber' insert instead of a spring?

However, when you say Valid Controller.......... not in the manual, do you refer to the plate which holds the dump switch etc?

Ivan mentioned ground.......... from hot to chassis ground a slight increase to 11.34v...........  I understand resistance in wires etc etc....... I've looked for an answer on-line as to what lower voltage will a 12v solendoid work........ didn't find an answer....... is there a low point?

Also, bearing in mind for some reason my coach has a solenoid with a spring and one with a rubber insert.  When a 12v source is connected they both work [individually], the spring is super fast, the rubber 'dribbles'. 

All new to me.

LES…on way to a dinner date with DW.  What controls the system?  There is a control up front.  Most of us have a Valid or PowerGear.  Whatever control panel or buttons you push and that is not working….never believe that the connection pigtails under it are TIGHT.  We have them coming loose all the time.  i would verify that the front controller has good connections….or test the voltage on the solenoid(s) or one the ones working are getting the same voltage as the one you measured….gotta nail things down…..

The GROUND issue is that is the GROUND side on the bad side has corrosion….that will give you a lower voltage.

Handing you off to the OTHER two Gurus….too many “teachers” confuse…

Good Luck….

[Les Hurdle]

Thank you all.............. I'll get to the tests.......... hopefully moving back into the house this w/e so moho issues may have to wait for a few days.

[Les Hurdle]

Engineers at Norgen today confirmed solenoid should work ok with 11.25v supply.

They say it is when the v is OVER 12v there is a problem.

The search for the solution continues. 

[Les Hurdle]

17 hours ago, Happycarz said:

Les, on my coach with the Lippert/PowerGear leveling system, the wires from the dump switch goes to both the one front dump valve and the rear two valves. The one 12v wire going to the rear splits to powered the rear two solenoids. 
 

Reassemble the solenoids, air lines and electrical connectors. Air up the coach, then dump the air. Is the problem still there? Take the black airlines and swap them.  Don’t swap anything else.  One thing at a time. Is the problem still there, or is it the other side that is not going down?

I’m sure you tried this, I might have missed it, put a wedge under the dump switch, so it is dumping. Those are 100% duty cycle Norgren Kip valves, so don’t worry about leaving switch on while testing.  Go to rear and verify you have 12v going to both valves.  Then check the ground wire eyelet where it is grounded. Remove screw to clean eyelets, screw and metal that it is screwed into. I will try to follow along here. 
 

I have been using those Norgren Kip solenoids for 25 years.  They hold up very well. As a side note the 06032 I number on them is the zip code for Farmington, CT, their Corp headquarters.  
 

If you determine that you have a faulty solenoid/valve, I will have you PM me with your address and I will send you one. I upgraded mine to ones with larger orifrices to dump quicker. I would be happy to donate one to you. 

 

 

HI HARRY

It will take 4 weeks to get solenoids from the supplier.........Pls email me at leshurdlebiz@gmail.com

[dennis.mcdonaugh]

I didn’t see this info. Is this a 4 or 8 air bag coach? If it’s an 8 bag coach, it’s not the solenoid that’s the problem. The air lines on my coach go from the ride height valve to the front airbag, then to the rear air bag and the solenoid so the front air bag deflates through the rear bag. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by dennis.mcdonaugh

[Les Hurdle]

Hi Dennis,

It is 4 bags.

Since I have had the 2004 coach I have found issues with the suspension which I don't think the previous owner was even aware [don't know why]...... I have learned a lot about solenoids etc and plan to investigate further in the next few days.  Many on the list have offered support and help, thank you all. sadly the least helpful was Monaco Coach.  I'll post my findings which may help others who are not overly aware of the mechanics of coaches.

[Les Hurdle]

I followed all the suggestions and checked various things.

Rightly or wrongly I checked voltage at the line  going to the solenoids with the engine running 12.56v

I changed the air pipe from one solenoid to the other... voila... both worked !  Then it didn't.

Unwisely I got underneath and started poking around looking for what !   The rats nest of wires was hard to follow since they were all the same color.  As and when I saw a screw with a wire attached was screwed into the chassis I took it out, cleaned it up and replaced it.

I have no idea if one of those is attached to the solenoid[s], but at last check both, with air pipes back to their original positions, work.   The solenoid with the rubber interior releases air way slower than the other .  For now it appears to me as if the entire issue was grounding, but how was one to know if the 'ground' was hidden........ I'll know more in a few weeks.

 

Thanks to all who guided me through this process.

[cbr046]

Those wires might be the same color but if you remove the dirt you should find printing on the wire to identify it.  Don't use brake cleaner or the printing will be gone. 

- bob

 

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, cbr046 said:

Those wires might be the same color but if you remove the dirt you should find printing on the wire to identify it.  Don't use brake cleaner or the printing will be gone. 

- bob

 

Excellent post and suggestion.  I would generalize and say.  Only use a detergent cleaner such as a smidge of Dawn which is an excellent dirt and grease remover.  A weak concentration of Simple Green might work also.  Anything like Brake Cleaner, Carburetor Cleaner, Acetone, Paint Thinner, Gasoline, etc. that is a solvent based is likely to remove the dot matrix printing.

 

[Les Hurdle]

Thanks.  I'll take a peek today.