2006 Dynasty. Bad Battery or Inverter/Charger not working

[Woody O]

I boon docked last night and my AGM batteries did not last through the night. Thinking I got a bad battery in the group. So, will test each one individually to see which one. My question is, after I got the gen. running, it took over a minute or two before the charger would go from "stand by" to charge and then it went to "float charging" at 29 amps instead of 99 amps. Question: Would a bad battery cause this or is the inverter/charger going out?

Woody O

2006 Monaco Dynasty

[Tom Cherry]

Woody.  Memory says you had an issue with your inverter a year or two back.  Finally got it fixed.  You can domthe following as a quick check, but here is what you need to do and then, probably call Magnum.

Turn OFF house bank.  Disconnect the jumpers between each set of 2 batteries.  Measure the voltages.  If one or more is in the 4 VDC or lower….then remove them or rposition them so they are in the same set.  Don’t know if you have 4 or 8.  Pick the best batteries, reading at least 5.7 or so.  Put them in sets so that you have then back to normal or charging.  If you have an odd number of 4 VDC….then put them together….do NOT put back in the jumpers….wasting your time and messing up the charging.  You will not be able to salvage these….shorted cells.

OK…you need an even, 2, 4, 6, or 8 GOOD (not shorted cells) batteries hook up.  Then test.

BUT, on the way home…or if you are going to drive several hours….put a jumper cable between the House and Chassis.  Then drive.  Once you are home or at a CG, repeat the above…

You need to out a piece of masking tape on each battery. A, B, C….etc.  record the voltage now.  Repeat when you do the Chassis charge…compare voltages.

Post that….then go from there.  We can’t make any decisions, or at least I can’t, until we know the condition of the batteries.  Load testing is marginal.  This plan lets us know what is going on.

[waterskier_1]

To answer your question, YES, a bad battery can cause this.  Your charger is set to transition from Absorption to float once a preset voltage is adhesive and the current drops below a preset value.  If you have bad batteries this might never happen, or may happen prematurely depending on the battery failure mode.  You plan to have the batteries individually checked is good.  Be cautious of charging the house back from either the inverter/charger or the alternator in the meantime.  If cell(s) are shorted you can quickly boil the battery causing fire or an explosion. 

  - Rick N 

[Rocketman3]

Also, after you get your batteries sorted out, (and bad ones replaced), you may want to give some consideration to a shunt based battery monitor. 
 

Voltage (even with agm batteries) is not a great indicator of how charged or discharged status. Which is why you need a shunt based monitor.
 

I use the Victron Smartshunt (there are other manufacturers).

Good Luck

[Donflem]

Shorted batteries. I seen this at my buddies shop in one day. Looked neglected and expensive to me.

[Woody O]

14 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Woody.  Memory says you had an issue with your inverter a year or two back.  Finally got it fixed.  You can domthe following as a quick check, but here is what you need to do and then, probably call Magnum.

Turn OFF house bank.  Disconnect the jumpers between each set of 2 batteries.  Measure the voltages.  If one or more is in the 4 VDC or lower….then remove them or rposition them so they are in the same set.  Don’t know if you have 4 or 8.  Pick the best batteries, reading at least 5.7 or so.  Put them in sets so that you have then back to normal or charging.  If you have an odd number of 4 VDC….then put them together….do NOT put back in the jumpers….wasting your time and messing up the charging.  You will not be able to salvage these….shorted cells.

OK…you need an even, 2, 4, 6, or 8 GOOD (not shorted cells) batteries hook up.  Then test.

BUT, on the way home…or if you are going to drive several hours….put a jumper cable between the House and Chassis.  Then drive.  Once you are home or at a CG, repeat the above…

You need to out a piece of masking tape on each battery. A, B, C….etc.  record the voltage now.  Repeat when you do the Chassis charge…compare voltages.

Post that….then go from there.  We can’t make any decisions, or at least I can’t, until we know the condition of the batteries.  Load testing is marginal.  This plan lets us know what is going on.

Thanks Tom, I will do as you described when I get to the  next CG. I will report back with what I found.Woody O

[jacwjames]

Are your batteries being charged while driving???

 

[Woody O]

OK, charged batteries for about 2 hours, then let them sit for 20-25 minutes and the readings are 6.46 for 2 batteries 6.47 for one, 6.50 for two, 6.51 for two and 6.54 for one. I'm outwest and will be attending the Albuqueque Balloon Fiesta, so, I'm getting a little nervous.  If its not the batteries, then its in the charger, right?  I don't have time to replace the inverter charger. Can I just buy a quality charger and charge all eight with the gen. running?

[jacwjames]

Use your voltmeter and check the voltage on the house battery bank while plugged in, it should read +13.4 volt at float.  Also check your chassis batter(s), they should also read 13.4 (unless your system does not tie both battery banks together on shore power.

Then unplug the coach and start the rig and see what the voltage readings are.

Shut rig off and start generator and see what the voltage readings are.

If your batteries are charging at 13.4 volts while plugged in or on generator I'd think you'd be fine. 

[96 EVO]

Your voltage numbers look fine.

You will likely gain capacity by cycling them a few times.

[Tom Cherry]

Talked to Woody.  Matter of semantics.  He needs enough power for overnight….as he is on the road and going to the Balloon Festival.  His Magnum is set conservatively for the LBCO.  He used to get maybe 12 hours and he thinks his Res Refer does not have an “energy conservation mode”.

The 3 yo Lifeline AGM’s are recharging very quickly…..went over his remote setup.  He will be measuring, properly, the recovery voltage.  Magnum says not a inverter issue, they think.  So, two things may be at play.  He had inverter issues a few years back.  That may have taken a toll on the AGM’s as they were, I believe, totally run down.  NOT good for an AGM.

The second was changing the LBCO voltage and raising it.  That causes the inverter to shut down quicker….thus, he has shorter life.

Bottom Line….he has an 8 battery bank.  He should be able to get upwards of 24 hours….but, he was only getting maybe 12. Probably damaged them when the inverter was flaky.  It took several hard resets to get rid of the gremlins.  So, hopefully it is OK.  He also has a new remote….so No set up issues or malfunction.

He is draining and testing the remote….an issue with Magnum….as well as knowing WHERE to set the LBCO.  If the remote reads, under load, 0.15 - 0.20 lower..as many do …..then that is an error.  Then the voltage, once the load is removed, recover….something around 0.10….  SO, in order to protect the batteries, the real meter setting might be 11.7 instead of 12.0.  Magnum says this is actually the way to set, but it is so confusing…..they don’t bother.

The intent is for him to go through the night for 4 days at the balloon festival.  He will raise the refrigerator set points a few degrees at night to reduce the draw….by lowering the LBCO a few tenths….that should buy him time.

When he returns home, he will have the AGM’s tested….but, Magnum and others think they are damaged…..and can’t be recovered.  

That’s the status….

[waterskier_1]

I'm coming in late on this discussion.  As others have posted, the battery voltages are within normal range (if anything a bit high, but likely didn't have a full resting time).  So, there are a couple steps that should be taken to analyze the problem.  First, as Jim posted, the OP need to confirm that the inverter/charger is charging the batteries.  The OP stated that he charged them for about 2 hours, but didn't say how they were charged.  The assumption is that he used the inverter/charger, but need to confirm this.  Also, 2 hours is not going to charge a 50% SOC AGM battery to 100%.  That will likely take 6+ hours.  

Before blaming the inverter or the batteries, a survey of actual load should be made.  The residential refrigerator is not going to discharge 8 AGM that are in fairly decent shape in less than 12 hours.  But we all know that there are other loads on the batteries, beside the phantom loads.  We use lights, water pumps, charge cell phones and tablets/laptops, and, most importantly, watch TV.  As an example my entertainment system, sitting idle (all units turned off with the remote, but still plugged in) draws over 8 Amps @ 12 Volts.  That may seem like a lot, but in the scheme of things, that is only 800 mA (0.8 Amps) at 120 VAC, where they were designed to operate.  And I likely have more "stuff" (Dish Receiver, Smart TV, Smart internet connected A/V Receiver, ROKU, Amazon Fire, to name most).  Then there may be internet access devices (MiFi, Starlink, etc) and routers for distribution of "steaming" content.  There may be vent fans running since he will be dry camping (unless he is running the generator for A/C).  Another thing to consider is a CPAP machine.  Mine will run off either 12 VDC or 120 VAC, but it doesn't matter - in either case make sure to turn off or otherwies disable the humidifier.  On my CPAP, the humidifier alone is spec'd at 4 Amps @ 120 VAC - that is 40 Amps @ 12 VDC!  Oxygen concentrators also consume considerable power that might be overlooked, if applicable.

Bottom Line:  Some sort of shunt or at a minimum a clamp on ammeter need to be deployed to see just how much the batteries are supplying, not just through the inverter.  

Final suggestion is to run the generator at breakfast and dinner (yes, I know some meals are provided) for an hour or so, and then before bedtime if needed.  That should get the OP through the night.

  -Rick N.

[Ivylog]

Anyone who dry camps often needs to spend $200 on an additional 100A charger… best$$ you can spend. Mount it above the RRBOX and power it from the block heater outlet. I use the PowerMax 100 (mount so you can get to the 2 holes to change its settings) so when you go Lithium you can turn the smart charger function off… constant 16V.

[Tom Cherry]

OK....maybe my post, as I was late for an appointment, was too brief.

Woody has an 8 BATTERY BANK.  His Res Refer does not, he thinks, have an Energy Saver option.  However, if we get back to basics...

Most of us with a four bank battery set and the Samsung RF series can go upwards of 16 - 18 hours and NOT get below a 50% State of Charge.  Therefore, an 8 Battery Bank should go at LEAST 24 HOURS...

Woody purchased the Lifeline AGMs 3 years ago.  He started having issues with his Inverter and it would not WORK....as in a MAJOR FAULT.  That was "cleared" and the inverter has been working and he has not had any issues.

NOW....what he reported, after (maybe 2 years ago when we cleared the fault) is that he would usually get 12 or so hours with the LBCO set (his memory) to 11.9 VDC.  OK....he could make it through the night....but that is only about HALF of LESS of what a "Functional....capable of being recharged to 100 SOC) batteries, AGM or Flooded should deliver.  The Remote setup was changed to 12 VDC (the USUAL 50% recommendation...that is...as was explained....not really correct).  SO, he is now shutting down EARLIER....as in maybe 8 hours.

His ISSUE....he is ON THE ROAD.  Wants to complete the TRIP....then see if a good battery shop in his home town and test and recharge the AGM's.  

The issue is also this.  Magnum say that the difference in the AGM1 and AGM2 setting is that in AGM1, you can equalize...  OPPS....

WARNING – DO NOT EQUALIZE CHARGE GELL OR AGM BATTERIES! Equalizing is an “over voltage-over charge” performed on flooded lead-acid batteries after they have been fully charged to help eliminate acid stratification. It helps to eliminate the acid stratification and sulfation that happens in all flooded lead acid batteries. Acid Stratification is the #1 killer of flooded lead acid batteries.

I was NOT aware of that....and NOW, I wonder, at the wisdom of Magnum.  Frank McElroy brought me up to speed on this.  When you equalize a bank of Flooded.....you literally boil and heat up and loose Electrolyte.  WITH a SEALED AGM....that liquid or VAPOR is GONE.  It gets vented OFF.  Now how do your REPLENISH or refill an AGM.  YOU DON'T.  FWIW, Trojan say, LAST DITCH....Equalize FLOODED....BUT do NOT DO IT OVER AND OVER or as a part of a "Annual PM".

SO....my theory and also talking to Frank.  The AGM's in his MH are TOAST.  They probably can't come back to LIFE.  Woody rarely, but like most of us, does ocassionally, DRY CAMP. He is in the SAME situation that I was in 2013.  I put in NEW Trojan's as my OEM Interstates were TOAST (two had shorted cells)....so I put in a new bank of 4

I went to the Balloon Festival and had nary a problem.  OK...that was WITHOUT a Res Refer. BUT, I have boondocked since then and know that I can go at least 12 and probably 16 hours without the LBCO (mine is set to 11.8 MEMORY) and, in reality, the RECOVERY voltage of 12.0 translates into setting the Magnum LBCO to 11.7....

Therefore, Woody is trying to milk the life out of them and survive at the Balloon Festival...which has QUIET TIME hours.  He can't just get up in the middle of the might and run the Genny.

SO....with all that said.....this is, perhaps a better explanation.  Short of buying one of the QUIET small 1000 Watt Honda ($1000....OUCH) generators and running it at night, he has to make do with what he has.

When he gets home, he plans to purchase new flooded (I think) cells.  He can test the Magnum when he gets home and verify...but from all the input, my experiences, and Magnum and Frank's comments.  ODDS ARE....the Inverter is OK.......BUT, until he can run a test....and that is what he intends to do...., using his Chassis batteries...which Magnum said would work..., he is sort of OUT OF LUCK....

Thanks for the input....Now you know.  He does NOT boondock often.  He has NO power at the Balloon Festival....so a portable charger will not work.  He can't run the Genny all night.  All he is trying to do is "Help me make it through the night".....HMM...What a great song title.

That's it....

 

[96 EVO]

I recently dropped my LBCO to 11.6v.

Had it at 11.7v and my inverter shut down half way thru making my morning pot of coffee 😖! The batteries recovered to 12.2v after the coffee maker load was removed, but, as many know, the Magnum isn't coming out of fault mode until it see's about 12.5v in the batteries.

[waterskier_1]

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

 

NOW....what he reported, after (maybe 2 years ago when we cleared the fault) is that he would usually get 12 or so hours with the LBCO set (his memory) to 11.9 VDC.  OK....he could make it through the night....but that is only about HALF of LESS of what a "Functional....capable of being recharged to 100 SOC) batteries, AGM or Flooded should deliver.  The Remote setup was changed to 12 VDC (the USUAL 50% recommendation...that is...as was explained....not really correct).  SO, he is now shutting down EARLIER....as in maybe 8 hours.

 

 

I'm not sure how you can make this statement without knowing all the loads in the particular coach.  You might be correct IF the only load was the Residential Refrigerator and absolutely nothing else.  Then we can draw some correlation between time on 4 6-volt batteries versus 8 6-volt batteries.  But you can't draw that correlation between your coach with 4 6-volt batteries powering what is "normal" for you, versus someone else's coach with 8 6-volt batteries  which a potentially significantly different load.  The only way such a determination can be made is by monitoring the the current flow into & out of the batteries on each coach.  If that current is close to the same, over the same time period, your statement holds true.  But I don't have the same current flow from day to day on my coach.  We need objective data here.

 

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

  

The issue is also this.  Magnum say that the difference in the AGM1 and AGM2 setting is that in AGM1, you can equalize...  OPPS....

WARNING – DO NOT EQUALIZE CHARGE GELL OR AGM BATTERIES! Equalizing is an “over voltage-over charge” performed on flooded lead-acid batteries after they have been fully charged to help eliminate acid stratification. It helps to eliminate the acid stratification and sulfation that happens in all flooded lead acid batteries. Acid Stratification is the #1 killer of flooded lead acid batteries.

 

My Magnum Reference material (Magnum ME-ARC Advanced Remote Control and Magnum ME-RC Standard Remote Control) both allow for equalization on Flooded, AGM-1, AGM-2, GEL, in addition to LFP, CC/CV and Custom for the Advanced Remote Control.  All of those MAY be equalized.  NONE are automatic.  You MUST "To turn on Equalize charging, ensure the LCD display reads “Float Charging” or “Full Charge”, then press and hold down the ON/OFF CHARGER button (about five seconds) until the LCD screen displays “Equalizing”.  So, the statement that you can equalize on only AGM-1 is false.

Additionally, AGM batteries are Lead Acid batteries, just not flooded.  According to Lifeline Batteries website : Can I equalize AGM batteries? The short answer is Yes!  Those interested may follow the link for more on the subject.

I recognize that I have used specific references (which I have quoted) and not all Inverters, Remote Controls and Batteries may be the same.  This is why it is important to not generalize if there are indeed differences (I don't know that there are, I did not do an exhaustive research).

 

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

I went to the Balloon Festival and had nary a problem.  OK...that was WITHOUT a Res Refer. BUT, I have boondocked since then and know that I can go at least 12 and probably 16 hours without the LBCO (mine is set to 11.8 MEMORY) and, in reality, the RECOVERY voltage of 12.0 translates into setting the Magnum LBCO to 11.7....

Therefore, Woody is trying to milk the life out of them and survive at the Balloon Festival...which has QUIET TIME hours.  He can't just get up in the middle of the might and run the Genny.

SO....with all that said.....this is, perhaps a better explanation.  Short of buying one of the QUIET small 1000 Watt Honda ($1000....OUCH) generators and running it at night, he has to make do with what he has.

 

I was there with you at the Balloon Festival - that is where we met.  Unless there are indeed battery or charger problem, which there is no objective evidence presented to that fact, only that it doesn't perform as well has the OP had hoped, I will reiterate some things to consider.  First is to do a power survey of the actual power consumption of the coach, specifically overnight.  If the tools to do that are not available, then make sure ALL unnecessary loads are shut down or disconnected.  I recognize that there are quiet hours, as there should be.  But if due diligence to ensure the batteries are "topped off" before quiet hours, I believe (again absent defective batteries or charger) that his coach with minimal loads will make it until the end of quiet hours (I don't remember the exact times, but rarely are they more than 12 hours) when he can recharge the batteries.  Make sure the Ice Maker is turned OFF.  Make sure Auto Defrost is turned OFF.  If that is not sufficient,  turn off the refrigerator, do not open the doors, overnight.  It should keep things cool/frozen for 10 - 12 hours.  Most importantly, don't use high power consumption items anytime when boondocking.  This includes, but is not limited to, the microwave, any form of electric heating (coffee maker, hair dryer, air fryer, instapot, etc.) without the generator running.  Plan around the non-quiet hours so you can run the generator.  This should allow for a fun stay at the Balloon Festival.  Note that more experience is gained on how much power is consumed overnight, how long it takes to recharge the batteries, etc., some of the above mentioned prohibited devices can slowly be used, when not on the generator.  

I hope this help clarify, and not muddy, the situation.

  -Rick N.

[grizzly]

When I had issues with batteries charging and also weak turning over of the generator or engine what solved my issue was to got to the iso relay in engine compartment and take off and apart and clean all the parts inside because they had build up on them. Easy to do. Since then no issues at all. tookme awhile to figure out this was the issue. Though I had a bad iso relay so replaced with new one  Now I have 2  Lol. Just my thoughts and experience 

[Tom Cherry]

@waterskier_1

RICK....without making this too long....

The Load information that I "quoted" was generic and after at least 2 hours on the phone with Woody and he explained and also talking to Frank, 2008 Dynasty, and his "
battery life capacity" as well as my own experience with a Samsung and the comments (at least 15 folks involved) at the 2018 Gathering....it is GENERIC.  Woodie asked me to help out after all the posts and him trying to sort out all the "solutions". I put this out as an update.  He is concerned and working on it.

I spent an hour on the phone with Magnum tech and they concluded the same thing.  BAD AGM's and they have MORE issues with AGM's and such than flooded.  The tech told me....AGM1 lets your Equalize....AGM2 doesn't.  I did not read and call back or talk to him to educate him.....Just took what he said and posted it....  Just passing on what he says.  Frank and I discussed and I also gave the reference.  Don't know how you refill, unless you have a NON SEALED AGM after one would equalize.  Trojan told me many times...and it may be in the users manual....EQUALIZE ONLY LAST DITCH effort to save batteries.  NOT RECOMMENDED as periodic or such.  If you follow the instructions and discharge and exercise the batteries (AGM or Flooded....don't ask for Gel or Li), then you will get the best life....do it semi annually or maybe every 9 months.  It works for a bunch of folks and we all get 6 or so years....more....when we do it.  That is why it was included in the Battery 101 "File"

You also hit the high spots on battery life.  Remember, Woodie is in the survival mode...and is learning.  He will get back to me with his LCBCO verification numbers and set his accordingly so he does NOT, drop into the 25% range.

Hope that clarifies.....Thanks for the input.....Will let you know if there are any changes....Woodie plans on "fixing this", but not on the road and locally when he gets home....We all wish him the best....