Surge Guard Md: 40250 bad shore power contactor

[Marine Boy]

I have a Surge Guard 40250 and the main/shore power contactor just went bad while I am traveling.  Has anyone replaced the Cutler-Hammer C65FNF360 contactor with an Eaton replacement?   Or should I bypass it for the rest of my trip and replace the 40250 completely?  I can make the rest of the trip without the Generator during a bypass.

[waterskier_1]

A quick Google search shows that device has a limited lifetime manufacturer warranty.  If you to get it replaced under that warranty, I don't think you want to be replacing components within.  

I'm not sure what you mean by "I can make the rest of the trip without the Generator during a bypass".  

Typically, the Surge Protector is between the transfer switch and the Shore Power connection.  It is completely out of the picture when on generator.  The rationale is that we can more easily control surges from our generators than we can from random power sources outside the coach.

  -Rick N.

[Ivan K]

His Surge Guard IS the transfer switch so if he bypass it to use shore power, it won't be switching to genny.

[Marine Boy]

13 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

His Surge Guard IS the transfer switch so if he bypass it to use shore power, it won't be switching to genny.

Yes, Ivan you are correct the Surge Guard is 40250 is just a transfer Switch.

[hex_nut]

John

The contactor for the 40250 has not been available for many years.  AND, the 40250 was built before the industry standardized to the RVC protocol for communication.  SO, when you replace the 40250 with a later version, you will lose the capability of communication with the Alladin system (assuming yours still works).  The 40350 and later versions do have remote display capabilities, but they are not compatible with the Alladin.  Sadly, coaches of our vintage are having their electronic components age out.  I am currently in the process of replacing the Sony backup monitor and camera which have failed.  The Sony system is like the Alladin system and the old Surge Guard 40250, they have not been manufactured for so many years that parts are no longer available.  Your best bet is to bypass it in the short term until you can replace it with a later version.  In my case, I pulled the wires from the 40250 and attached 50 amp plug-ins to the wire sets.  (Female 50 amp plugs on the shore and generator wires and male 50 amp on the house side).  That way, I had the capability to manually transfer from one to the other when I needed to.  Good luck with your repairs and let the rest of us know how you come out so we will know what works well and what does not.

Richard

[willbo777]

When my 40250 crapped out this summer, I initially bypassed shore power to come directly into the coach until I could get a replacement.  I went with the 40350 and  mounted their monitor so I am still able to see Volts, Amps, and faults.  A bit of a transition away from the Aladdin, but it works well and we are pleased.  And the 40250 is a transfer switch and surge protector as is its replacement the 40350.

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

I dont have the answer, but the OP was asking not about a replacement ATS, but rather if one could replace the OEM contactors with another brand.  Has anyone done that who can provide an answer?

Meantime, I’ve had some success giving my 40250 a good thump to get the contactors to work.

Edited October 1, 2023 by johncvandoren@gmail.com
Spelling

[hex_nut]

When my Southwire 40250 began to act up, I did extensive research to find a realistic replacement for the contactor.  I could find nothing that would fit and accomplish the objective.  Everyone else I could find that had gone through the process had eventually given up and replaced the entire unit.  Sadly, replacing the entire unit will result in losing communication to the Alladin unit.  I have asked in many forums about the possibility of gutting the 40250 and porting the communication components over to a newer version.  All of those with far more electrical engineering experience then I have responded that it "might" be possible, but was not at all realistically practical.  So, the bottom line is simple: Replacing the contactor in the 40250 is not realistic unless you have the superhuman fabrication and enginering skills to build your own surge protector ATS combination.  There is a company with a listing online that will evidently build you a replacement for the contactor for $2000.  But, I do not consider that realistic since a replacement with a newer version is about half that.  If anyone comes up with a solution to this issue, I would like to hear it.

Richard

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

3 hours ago, hex_nut said:

When my Southwire 40250 began to act up, I did extensive research to find a realistic replacement for the contactor.  I could find nothing that would fit and accomplish the objective.  Everyone else I could find that had gone through the process had eventually given up and replaced the entire unit.  Sadly, replacing the entire unit will result in losing communication to the Alladin unit.  I have asked in many forums about the possibility of gutting the 40250 and porting the communication components over to a newer version.  All of those with far more electrical engineering experience then I have responded that it "might" be possible, but was not at all realistically practical.  So, the bottom line is simple: Replacing the contactor in the 40250 is not realistic unless you have the superhuman fabrication and enginering skills to build your own surge protector ATS combination.  There is a company with a listing online that will evidently build you a replacement for the contactor for $2000.  But, I do not consider that realistic since a replacement with a newer version is about half that.  If anyone comes up with a solution to this issue, I would like to hear it.

Richard

Wonder if contactors from another Southwire ATS (not necessarily a combo surge protection ATS  like your 40250) might be an option.

[Tom Cherry]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:25 PM, waterskier_1 said:

A quick Google search shows that device has a limited lifetime manufacturer warranty.  If you to get it replaced under that warranty, I don't think you want to be replacing components within.  

I'm not sure what you mean by "I can make the rest of the trip without the Generator during a bypass".  

Typically, the Surge Protector is between the transfer switch and the Shore Power connection.  It is completely out of the picture when on generator.  The rationale is that we can more easily control surges from our generators than we can from random power sources outside the coach.

  -Rick N.

On most of the aftermarket surge suppressors, at least the Progrressive Industry, there is NO SURGE or MOV on the Generator.  The safeguards for the over voltages, under, HERTZ, open neutrals, ground issues, are all on the upstream shore side.  Tommy Fannelli, the owner and founder and his brother designed the circuitry that way.  In a discussion with Onan about the need for surge protection, their tech support said the 7.5/8.0 Units were AC to DC and back to AC and were very clean and stable.  The 10/12’s were also very closely regulated and did not need protection.  The caveat is to run them every few months or so for at least an hour under <50% load to keep the brushes cleaned….

The comments about no replacement conractor is a bummer.

However, what imwas told and had explained to me is exactly what  @hex_nut is confirming.  Unless there is a replacement component, then the Aladdin’s data connection is gone.  The voltage and current readings from an internal “board” or device….not a toroidal coil like most current reading devices use.  There is, I have been told, no interface between the newer Southwire or whatever name they are using….SO the Aladdin will be dead for voltage & current reading….

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:02 PM, Marine Boy said:

I have a Surge Guard 40250 and the main/shore power contactor just went bad while I am traveling.  Has anyone replaced the Cutler-Hammer C65FNF360 contactor with an Eaton replacement?   Or should I bypass it for the rest of my trip and replace the 40250 completely?  I can make the rest of the trip without the Generator during a bypass.

Can you not just replace same contactors, rather than another brand?

Edited October 2, 2023 by johncvandoren@gmail.com
Correction

[Marine Boy]

1 hour ago, johncvandoren@gmail.com said:

Can you not just replace same contactors, rather than another brand?

Not made any longer.

[Yoaks5]

When my surge guard died earlier this summer I could not find a contractor either. I ended up replacing with a separate transfer switch and surge protector (about $500 for both). For the surge I used the hard wired Huges Watchdog that has blue tooth so I can see the same data that was available on the Aladdin but now it's easier to get to. Really like it. 

[Tom Cherry]

There is a lot more SUPPRESSORS out there now.  A few years ago, the most popular Surge and ATS was the Progressive HW50C and the ESCO LPT50BRD.  Together, they were cheaper than the upper end Surguards or TRC.  The remote is simple....and shows a wealth of information.  So, I get up...read the error codes...or can watch the individual L1 and L2 Voltages and Current draws.  Should have mounted it beside my bed and stared into it to go to sleep...  LOL.

Technology has changed....  BT Apps now let you do whatever you want.

My TAKE.  Mine WORKS.  The Progressive and the ESCO are SIMPLE...as in, you can field service and replace either of the control boards in the Progressive (contactors are bullet proof...unless one installs it wrong and overloads his MH and burns out on....ONE failure that has been posted here in the past 14 years)  or you can replace the board or the contactors in the ESCO...

That is what I know and have knowledge of after 12 or so years of moderating and helping folks repair or upgrade their electrical systems...and the two years prior.  I sold my "line" SurgeGuard and installed the HW50C in 2010.  Nary an issue....and it has been used heavily (not full time) but probably 750 nights OUT and at least a few hundred in the driveway....so approaching 1000 or so days...almost 3 years of use...

I would NOT purchase any system that I could not diagnose and get a board or contactor shipped in...  That's just me....  The older Surgeguards were sealed....

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:02 PM, Marine Boy said:

I have a Surge Guard 40250 and the main/shore power contactor just went bad while I am traveling.  Has anyone replaced the Cutler-Hammer C65FNF360 contactor with an Eaton replacement?   Or should I bypass it for the rest of my trip and replace the 40250 completely?  I can make the rest of the trip without the Generator during a bypass.

I’m sure you’re aware that Cutler-Hammer is part of Eaton; so perhaps they—Eaton—can answer your question?

i will following in hopes a useful answer appears.😊

[amphi_sc]

Just speculation here... What about placing a new 40350 or equivalent upstream from the existing 40250, internally jumping shore input on the 40250 contactor directly to the 40250 output bypassing the internal contactor.  Wouldn't the existing logic board in the 40250 be able to display the now always "shore" input on the Aladdin as before? When the new upstream ATS switched to generator the old 40250 would still show it as "shore" but you could read the amps/volts on the Aladdin.  Effectively the old 40250 provides the Aladdin interface but NO protection at all as the contractor would be by-passed.  Just speculation.

BTW my 40250 always reads the voltage on leg 2 as 2-3 volts higher than reality and Southside could not find a way to recalibrate the actual logic board my unit had (which was a different layout/design/revision level from what they thought it should have had.)

[Marine Boy]

16 hours ago, amphi_sc said:

Just speculation here... What about placing a new 40350 or equivalent upstream from the existing 40250, internally jumping shore input on the 40250 contactor directly to the 40250 output bypassing the internal contactor.  Wouldn't the existing logic board in the 40250 be able to display the now always "shore" input on the Aladdin as before? When the new upstream ATS switched to generator the old 40250 would still show it as "shore" but you could read the amps/volts on the Aladdin.  Effectively the old 40250 provides the Aladdin interface but NO protection at all as the contractor would be by-passed.  Just speculation.

BTW my 40250 always reads the voltage on leg 2 as 2-3 volts higher than reality and Southside could not find a way to recalibrate the actual logic board my unit had (which was a different layout/design/revision level from what they thought it should have had.)

I believe that if your the inductive coils and control board are ok in the 40250, your idea would work.  I have bypassed the the Shore Power contactor in my 40250 and disconnected the generator circuit and we are functioning on Shore Power with all data coming out of the 40250 for volts and amps.  I have found an Eaton contactor that I believe is replacement for the old contactor.  Once I return home from my trip, I plan to replace the contactor and with luck with be fully functional with only about a $100 parts expense.   I will update everyone with how it goes once complete, probably late October.

Thanks for all of the input and ideas!

Best, John

[Marine Boy]

Hi All,

I was the one that started this thread a few weeks ago.  When on a long trip my Surge Guard 40250 transfer switch failed.  So everyone understands, this switch is NLA/old technology, but it talks to Aladdin.  To finish my trip, I bypassed the failed shore power contactor, which required disconnecting the generator inside the transfer switch box, for safety.   All has worked well on our trip and while traveling, I did some research, findding a possible contactor replacement, which I ordered, so it was at my house when we got home.    A few days ago, we returned Home and the contactor was waiting for us. 

To make it clear, the contactor pack in the 40250 is a Cutler-Hammer C65FNF360, which is a cluster of 3 contactors.  This part is no longer available.  I don't know the history, but Cutler-Hammer and Eaton are sister companies now.  The contactors in this cluster can be separated which is what has to be done for my repair.  The contactor I purchased for the shore power line is an Eaton C25FNF360A which can be purchased on Amazon for a little over a $100 or Granger has it for $260.  The part number is important, because one letter difference can change coil voltage among other things.  This contactor can be disassembled and serviced with parts, but I don't know what parts are available, if any, which is why I am replacing the complete contactor.   When removing and changing out the one bad contactor, you have to  be careful since there are mechanical connectors between the contactors, so the shore power and generator contactors can't be engaged at the same time.

The repair went as hoped and all is working as it should including data coming out of the transfer box for Aladdin.  FYI - I was lucky that there was no damage to the control board.

Hope this helps someone.  It was way cheaper than a new transfer switch and still talks to Aladdin.

F

[Tom Cherry]

John,

Thanks for the post.  This is a request from the STAFF.  Could you please write up a “paper” on how you did this and the source. Also,exactly, since pictures and narratives help, as to the step by step.  PM me the Word or whatever document and we will convert to a PDF and have it as a resource for others.

 Thanks 

 

[Marine Boy]

On 10/14/2023 at 5:48 PM, Tom Cherry said:

John,

Thanks for the post.  This is a request from the STAFF.  Could you please write up a “paper” on how you did this and the source. Also,exactly, since pictures and narratives help, as to the step by step.  PM me the Word or whatever document and we will convert to a PDF and have it as a resource for others.

 Thanks 

 

Hi Tom,

Sorry for slow reply, trying to catch up after being gone for 3 months.   I will do my best to get a report done in the next week or so.

Best,

John

[randys006]

On 10/14/2023 at 2:29 PM, Marine Boy said:

Hi All,

I was the one that started this thread a few weeks ago.  When on a long trip my Surge Guard 40250 transfer switch failed.  So everyone understands, this switch is NLA/old technology, but it talks to Aladdin.  To finish my trip, I bypassed the failed shore power contactor, which required disconnecting the generator inside the transfer switch box, for safety.   All has worked well on our trip and while traveling, I did some research, findding a possible contactor replacement, which I ordered, so it was at my house when we got home.    A few days ago, we returned Home and the contactor was waiting for us. 

To make it clear, the contactor pack in the 40250 is a Cutler-Hammer C65FNF360, which is a cluster of 3 contactors.  This part is no longer available.  I don't know the history, but Cutler-Hammer and Eaton are sister companies now.  The contactors in this cluster can be separated which is what has to be done for my repair.  The contactor I purchased for the shore power line is an Eaton C25FNF360A which can be purchased on Amazon for a little over a $100 or Granger has it for $260.  The part number is important, because one letter difference can change coil voltage among other things.  This contactor can be disassembled and serviced with parts, but I don't know what parts are available, if any, which is why I am replacing the complete contactor.   When removing and changing out the one bad contactor, you have to  be careful since there are mechanical connectors between the contactors, so the shore power and generator contactors can't be engaged at the same time.

The repair went as hoped and all is working as it should including data coming out of the transfer box for Aladdin.  FYI - I was lucky that there was no damage to the control board.

Hope this helps someone.  It was way cheaper than a new transfer switch and still talks to Aladdin.

F

Nicely done. I wish I had seen this before my adventure this past week. I had the symptom, but ended up buying a cheaper ATS and scavenging the board from the 40250 and rewiring/relocating the sensors so I didn't lose the data on the Aladdin. I suspect that old board has some damage, so I still would've done that, but this would've provided great perspective!

[hex_nut]

John

It is the generator side contactor that has failed on mine.  Are the two contactors (shore and generator) in the 40250 the same?  If so, I can order the single contactor you found on Amazon and replace the failed generator one on mine (or just order two and replace them both).  Thanks for your assistance.

Richard

[Marine Boy]

2 hours ago, hex_nut said:

John

It is the generator side contactor that has failed on mine.  Are the two contactors (shore and generator) in the 40250 the same?  If so, I can order the single contactor you found on Amazon and replace the failed generator one on mine (or just order two and replace them both).  Thanks for your assistance.

Richard

Richard, 

I am in the process of writing a full description on why and how I fixed mine.  Hope to have it done in the next few days.  There was no marking on the generator contactor, but I see no reason they would be different.  You have to keep in mind that the contactor cluster was sold in one unit with two contactors and a make/break switch which you can see in my picture being the white part at the bottom of the cluster.  As I explained the cluster is NLA, which is why I replaced the bad contactor.

How did you test the contactor to verify it is bad?

Best, John

[hex_nut]

John

My generator contactor starts chattering and drops connection with any load above about 15 amps.  The generator continues to run with no load as the ATS goes through its timed delay process and then reconnects to generator power.  This process just repeats itself as long as the load is present.  It will support the battery charger (12 to 13 amp load), but not the microwave or an air conditioner.  Does all that make sense?

Richard

[Marine Boy]

1 hour ago, hex_nut said:

John

My generator contactor starts chattering and drops connection with any load above about 15 amps.  The generator continues to run with no load as the ATS goes through its timed delay process and then reconnects to generator power.  This process just repeats itself as long as the load is present.  It will support the battery charger (12 to 13 amp load), but not the microwave or an air conditioner.  Does all that make sense?

Richard

Richard,

Yes, it sounds like the contactor coil going bad.  Have you opened up the 40250 yet and checked all of the connections inside?  You could also manually push in the contactor to engage it.  I always try to check every possibility before you spend money for parts.

John