Alternatives to FASS system

[wamcneil]

Ok, so the FASS system I bought cheap on ebay didn't work out so I'm abandoning the thread I started a little while ago.

Now I'm interested in FASS alternatives. My only motivation is to supply constant positive pressure to the CAPS on my engine and abandon the original part-time lift pump.

Lots of folks installing FASS systems on their motorhomes, and aside from the obscene cost, I don't have a problem with it. In general though, I'm not convinced that a fuel air separation technology is compelling, so it's an obscene cost for something I don't think will substantially benefit me. Plus all the work of installing a completely separate fuel filtration system when I already have a perfectly good fuel filtration system.

So I'm thinking about a full-time lift pump in the rear, between the primary and secondary filters. I bookmarked JDCrow's thread on installing just such a pump a while back and think that's a pretty good model to follow. The pump he used is wonderful, but also obscenely expensive. 

Why on earth should diesel engines require monstrously large extremely heavy-duty $600+ pumps to move less than 3 gallon/min of fuel???? 

Is there any good reason why a pump like this wouldn't work just fine as a lift pump for a 400hp engine for around $200?

Diesel Fuel Lift Pump - GM and Dodge (113050000) 810505020768 – Pacific Performance Engineering (ppepower.com)

Features:

Up to 160 gallons per hour (GPH) fuel flow

High-flow 1/2 inch NPT inlet and outlet

Eliminates vacuum from fuel tank to high-pressure fuel injection pump

Compatible with biodiesel, and low sulfur diesel

 

Or, if the reliability of that PPE pump is questionable, maybe this airdog pump at about $300 

Raptor R1SBU369 Lift Pump Universal 100 GPH Pump Only (airdog-pureflow.com)

Edited May 8 by wamcneil

[timaz996]

I went with the FASS system because I didn't want to loose another CAPS injection pump. I went with the 100 gal hour setup. I did install mine like the FASS factory video they have on YT on a motorhome. I know a pump does better pushing then pulling but I still get 16 psi to the injection pump. The extra fuel being pumped is being cleaned. You can watch their videos, you can see how fuel is aeriated being pulled through 35 ft of fuel line and fuel shaken in the tank going down the road. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8 by timaz996

[Cubflyer]

 Walter,

I believe there is no reason that the pump you linked will not work to 'substitute' for the original lift pump, and having it operating 'full time' will provide the desired constant supply of fuel pressure to the CAPs pump.  There are other reasons folks have installed FASS pumps and filter systems before the secondary filter (last filter before the injector pump).  A big reason is pointed out in information provided by PPE (your chosen pump mfg)  and I quote:

 "The PPE Diesel Fuel Lift Pump is a key component in a reliable fuel system. Rather than depending on the OEM CP3 to pull fuel from the tank, the PPE Diesel Fuel Lift Pump pushes fuel through the lines and filter. It eliminates the possibility of air being drawn into the system, collapsed hoses, and fuel restrictions from occurring. Kit includes pump, mounting bracket, dual 12V fuel pump relays (JD1914)(RL45), and wiring diagram."  (underline and bold added by me)  

With the FASS filtration/air separation system, the primary filter is before the pump and any air is returned to the tank, providing pure airless fuel to the injector pump, (very good for injector pumps longevity).  Your proposed placement between the primary and secondary filters' only benefit over stock is the full time operation.  Drawing aeriated fuel and supplying it to the injector pump is still a possibility.

Each to their own.... it's easy to improve the system over the original parttime lift pump, especially since our fuel tanks are 30+ foot away from the injector pump!

In my case, I also was dealing with a contaminated fuel tank from lack of operation, so the FASS system has kept me on the road, instead of in the shop spending thousands of dollars....!

Ken  

[wamcneil]

Thanks guys. I've read most of the FASS/AirDog marketing messages about the pure, airless fuel they promise to deliver. And I'm sure they do that...

I'm just not convinced that fuel aeration is an actual problem that needs to be fixed. Other than FASS/AirDog marketing, is there some compelling body of evidence to support the notion that fuel aeration is an actual problem that needs to be fixed?

On the other hand... I do believe CAPS failure is an actual problem that I'd rather not experience. So, I am motivated to supply positive pressure to the CAPS.

The main reason FASS is on my radar is because there's not a big price differential between those systems and an American-made pump that I perceived to be reliable enough to trust. A $600 pump will seem pretty cheap when I'm on the side of the road looking at my failed $200 pump (likely chinese in origin...). My biggest argument against those two pumps I referenced is that I'm finding folks in diesel forums complaining about them failing.

So the two options I'm looking at are:

1. a pump in the back because it doesn't require a return line forward to the tank
   • Perceived to be somewhat easier
   • Pumps are not draw-through, so if the pump fails the motorhome will stop (unless I make some kind of check-valve bypass manifold)
2. a FASS close to the tank because I'm not willing to run a return line up from the back of the coach
   • Keeps the entire fuel system pressurized and absolutely solves the imaginary problem of air in the fuel
   • Maybe a bit more work than option 1, but not huge
   • Requires relocating my spare coolant and oil jugs 😞 

 

Edited May 8 by wamcneil

[timaz996]

 

1. "a FASS close to the tank because I'm not willing to run a return line up from the back of the coach
   • Keeps the entire fuel system pressurized and absolutely solves the imaginary problem of air in the fuel
   • Maybe a bit more work than option 1, but not huge
   • Requires relocating my spare coolant and oil jugs 😞 "

From my research the FASS setup will still require a new return line because the stock line can't handle the volume of fuel being returned to the tank. Even with my FASS being located in the engine compartment I ran another larger return line. Stock and new line are still in play.  

[wamcneil]

7 minutes ago, timaz996 said:

 

From my research the FASS setup will still require a new return line because the stock line can't handle the volume of fuel being returned to the tank. Even with my FASS being located in the engine compartment I ran another larger return line. Stock and new line are still in play.  

Yeah. That's my understanding too. That's why I'm motivated to put a fass on top of the fuel tank and make the new return line real short. Tee'd it in with the vent fitting looks like a good solution. 

Did you delete a bunch of pictures from the earlier post? The notification on my phone has a bunch of pictures of your setup (thanks!) but I'm only seeing one in the thread above.

Edited May 8 by wamcneil

[Cubflyer]

Walter, 

FYI, I had a pin hole in the hose out of my FASS system to my secondary filter… CAPs pump (an original hose, not an added or replacement hose) once about an hour from my destination (for the winter storage)).  The engine ran fine, maybe a little down on power, but I was flat-landing it…. (Running the FASS system left a trail of diesel, with it off the CAPs pump was probably pulling some air with the fuel but it did keep running and no fuel was fine misting out).  When I changed that hose the FASS pump sure was handy to bleed the air out of the hose to the engine! (Reason to have a pump that comes on and stays on!)

As far as wanting solid fuel without air or water going to the injector system, it is “standard knowledge” that the pumps are cooled and lubricated by fuel and injectors hate water…. A big part of the Cummins fuel injection system design is the return of “excess” fuel to the tank… that’s the cooling fuel.

But, again, each to their own.

Ken

[wamcneil]

I sure agree that having a pump in the system would make the filter changes a lot easier! First time I changed my filters, I replaced BOTH filters at the same time. And then installed the new filters dry of course... assuming I would turn on the key and the lift pump would just pull fuel through the system...

What an ordeal that was... Didn't make that mistake again!

[tmw188]

Easy to discover leaks with a positive pressure pump running. Another thing you can do with the FASS is jumper the relay that comes with it and without the key on you can periodically run the pump (polish) the fuel while stored. The guy at FASS told me how to do it with a paper clip. 

[dl_racing427]

21 hours ago, wamcneil said:

Ok, so the FASS system I bought cheap on ebay didn't work out so I'm abandoning the thread I started a little while ago.

Now I'm interested in FASS alternatives. My only motivation is to supply constant positive pressure to the CAPS on my engine and abandon the original part-time lift pump.

Lots of folks installing FASS systems on their motorhomes, and aside from the obscene cost, I don't have a problem with it. In general though, I'm not convinced that a fuel air separation technology is compelling, so it's an obscene cost for something I don't think will substantially benefit me. Plus all the work of installing a completely separate fuel filtration system when I already have a perfectly good fuel filtration system.

So I'm thinking about a full-time lift pump in the rear, between the primary and secondary filters. I bookmarked JDCrow's thread on installing just such a pump a while back and think that's a pretty good model to follow. The pump he used is wonderful, but also obscenely expensive. 

Why on earth should diesel engines require monstrously large extremely heavy-duty $600+ pumps to move less than 3 gallon/min of fuel???? 

Is there any good reason why a pump like this wouldn't work just fine as a lift pump for a 400hp engine for around $200?

Diesel Fuel Lift Pump - GM and Dodge (113050000) 810505020768 – Pacific Performance Engineering (ppepower.com)

Features:

Up to 160 gallons per hour (GPH) fuel flow

High-flow 1/2 inch NPT inlet and outlet

Eliminates vacuum from fuel tank to high-pressure fuel injection pump

Compatible with biodiesel, and low sulfur diesel

 

Or, if the reliability of that PPE pump is questionable, maybe this airdog pump at about $300 

Raptor R1SBU369 Lift Pump Universal 100 GPH Pump Only (airdog-pureflow.com)

I see no reason that pump wouldn't work.
I'm considering building my own fuel polishing system using a generic diesel pump, spin-on fuel filter mount, and an adjustable regulator.
Mounting above the fuel tank would make it easy to install, with minimal plumbing changes.
It would keep the fuel lines at positive pressure, easing the load on my injection pump, and I could build this system for far less than FASS wants.

[gjh2916]

I used this system from Ultra RV Products and I have had no problems. Uses existing filters that are on cummins engine. Just have to have a hose made from pump to primary (1st) filter, and cap off a couple of lines on lift pump. Some people don't like this system because pump pulls fuel from tank 30 feet, instead of having pump next to tank and push fuel 30 feet. The reason I went with this system because easy installation, and cost effective. When I purchased it was $599

[wamcneil]

Yeah. That pump is on my radar. Looks like a great solution... I just wish it was 1/3 the price. The gross margins must be absurd. 

 

[gjh2916]

26 minutes ago, wamcneil said:

Yeah. That pump is on my radar. Looks like a great solution... I just wish it was 1/3 the price. The gross margins must be absurd. 

 

It comes with mounting bracket wiring harness and relays, I just figured it's less expense that a new CAPS pump

Just now, gjh2916 said:

It comes with mounting bracket wiring harness and relays, I just figured it's less expense that a new CAPS pump

I added a digital fuel pressure gauge on dash, and this pump is pressure adjustable

[Smokey]

I used a KW 10 psi fuel pump mounted on top of the fuel tank. Simpley removed supply line mounted pump in between tank and supply line. Ran a inline fuse to front run bay. Only runs when key is on. Been on for 4 years, no problems positive pressure to filters and pump. Pump cost about $40.00 on eBay. 

2001 Dynasty.  iSC 350

 

[wamcneil]

What's a KW pump?

[jacwjames]

When I installed my FASS pump I talked to VAN Williams on his install.   When Van tells you something you can pretty well take it to the bank.  He said he talked to Cummins about a FASS install and they advised against relying on the return line from the OEM lift pump to carry excess fuel back to tank, the back pressure caused by the excess flow could damage the CAPS pump. 

Alot of people mount the pump near the engine but it relies on the original return line if they don't run an extra line back to tank

Van mounted his FASS pump near the engine but ran a separate fuel return line to avoid this. 

I mounted mine near the fuel tank, it made the electrical and plumbing much easier

That way I could use the original fuel (suction) supply line as the pressurized fuel line from the FASS.  I had a new suction line made at Napa and attached it to the fuel tank pick up fitting.  I then put a T in the return line circuit and return fuel from the FASS there along with the original fuel return line. 

 

 

I did decide to go with the FASS pump because on the fuel polishing. 

I had algae one time, and one time is enough.  Since then I've been using algaecide. 

But having the ability to continually filter/clean the fuel is worth the extra cost. 

Edited May 10 by jacwjames

[Smokey]

KW pump is electric pump made for gas or diesel. You can buy various pressures. I put a 2 psi pump on a old gas truck replaced the original mechanical pump. I used a in 10 psi because it doesn't overwhelm the return. Found a small leak in line before secondary filter as soon as turned on. Didn't go around lift pump. Left everything else stock.

 

 

[Cubflyer]

Smokey, 

when I installed my FASS system, I bypassed the (leaking*) factory lift pump with a union fitting (connected the input hose to tubing that was on the output of the lift pump).  That fitting also had a 1/8”NPT that I installed a fuel pressure transducer into. Gauge up front gives me status of the FASS system filters and pump.   *A common problem with the factory lift pump, watch for fuel dripping off the starter and bell housing….

Ken

Edited May 11 by Cubflyer
More info/ typo

[wamcneil]

1 hour ago, Cubflyer said:

...  *A common problem with the factory lift pump, watch for fuel dripping off the starter and bell housing….

Ken

Yeah, that's what put CAPS failure on my radar couple years ago. I would notice a little puddle of diesel on the ground after I parked the rig, but never when running. Pump gasket was leaking. 

Through great contortions, I managed to tighten the fasteners and get it to stop leaking, but still want to have positive pressure and not be slurping air through the CAPS!

[CMillet86]

What I did, was bypass all the factory crap. I came directly out of the tank into the FASS pump/filter setup, then from there straight to the injection pump. I removed all the filters in the rear, and bypassed the factory lift pump. Made a jumper hose for the return line. Now All my filters are in the fuel tank bay with a pressure gauge. I wasn't a fan of having a Filter here, a filter there etc. The Fass setup is good enough for common rail setups which require cleaner fuel then the CAPS system does. 

[wamcneil]

Yeah, part of me hates to have redundant stuff on the rig. IMO it’s kinda silly to spend a preposterous amount of money on a pump and filter system that is supposed to be the best thing available and then keep old filtration components in the system 

That being said though… I’m a little concerned about hooking the old original fuel hose straight to the CAPS. Is there algae/crap in that hose that will shake loose when it’s disturbed and moved around?

 

[dl_racing427]

6 hours ago, wamcneil said:

Yeah, part of me hates to have redundant stuff on the rig. IMO it’s kinda silly to spend a preposterous amount of money on a pump and filter system that is supposed to be the best thing available and then keep old filtration components in the system 

That being said though… I’m a little concerned about hooking the old original fuel hose straight to the CAPS. Is there algae/crap in that hose that will shake loose when it’s disturbed and moved around?

 

Flush all hoses before connecting.

[jacwjames]

On my FASS pump the PF3001 filter is 144 micron, the guts of the filter is a stainless steel mesh.  So it captures larger contaminates but smaller pass. 

The XWS3002 is 2 micron, which is great, but the filter captures water and smaller stuff.   In my case I can only install the smaller size filters due to height constraints. 

Not sure what would happen if I'd get into a bad tank of fuel with lots of water>  the filters will bypass if it gets stopped up and then that fuel would go to the injector pump. 

So I left my secondary filter FS1022 in place it is a 10 micron filter, this is the one with the water sensor on the bottom and a drain.   Every once in a while I'll drain a little fuel out and inspect to see if there is water etc.  

I think its a good backup and worth keeping the FS1022 in place. 

[tmw188]

1 hour ago, jacwjames said:

On my FASS pump the PF3001 filter is 144 micron, the guts of the filter is a stainless steel mesh.  So it captures larger contaminates but smaller pass. 

The XWS3002 is 2 micron, which is great, but the filter captures water and smaller stuff.   In my case I can only install the smaller size filters due to height constraints. 

Not sure what would happen if I'd get into a bad tank of fuel with lots of water>  the filters will bypass if it gets stopped up and then that fuel would go to the injector pump. 

So I left my secondary filter FS1022 in place it is a 10 micron filter, this is the one with the water sensor on the bottom and a drain.   Every once in a while I'll drain a little fuel out and inspect to see if there is water etc.  

I think its a good backup and worth keeping the FS1022 in place. 

True I would second that. This is what is inside the FASS filters.                 
XWS-3002 looks similar to K&N type

PF- 3001  SS looking screen.

Edited May 29 by tmw188

[jacwjames]

On IRV2 there has been a recent post on installing a FASS system. 

I was under the impression that if the XWS3002 became plugged up it would bypass which is why I left my secondary filter in place.  The OP on IRV2 stated it would not bypass.   I sent an email to FASS for confirmation. 

Last night I found a video from FASS saying it wouldn't bypass but instead the engine would eventually stop and that you simply had to change filters to get back on the road.   It is a 2 micron filter so it will catch a lot of "stuff".  So if you got a batch of bad fuel with lots of algae it might cause a problem. 

I do carry spare filters and they are easy enough to change.