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Tow Connection black box.


Jim  Andrews
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My left turn signal doesn't work on my toad. Trouble shot it down to a little black box of some kind at the back next to the hitch. It has no markings, but it has 3 wires going in and 3 coming out. Power going in but no power going out. (See Pic). 

Does anyone know the purpose of it? Maybe  some capacitor or fuse box and looks totally sealed.  I might try to pry it open, but before I do that, I want to know if it is needed.

I doubt I would find a replacement because I don't even know what to call it.  So, my question is this. What if I cut the unit out and wire nut the wires together. Does anyone  see a problem eliminating this device?

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7 minutes ago, Jim Andrews said:

I doubt I would find a replacement because I don't even know what to call it.  So, my question is this. What if I cut the unit out and wire nut the wires together. Does anyone  see a problem eliminating this device?

That is called a three-light to two-light converter, and no, you can't do without one if your motorhome has separate stop lights and turn signals, and your toad does not. Here is an example: https://www.amazon.com/CURT-58240-Non-Powered-Converter-Compatible/dp/B001EP0GI6

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Thanks for the responses and I'm VERY glad I asked.  If you look at the picture, one side has a yellow, white, green going in and yellow, red, green coming out.  What type of connection is this?  What would I ask for or search for to get the correct replacement? 

Jim

2002 Monaco 36'

Ft. Worth,  TX.

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6 minutes ago, Jim Andrews said:

Thanks for the responses and I'm VERY glad I asked.  If you look at the picture, one side has a yellow, white, green going in and yellow, red, green coming out.  What type of connection is this?  What would I ask for or search for to get the correct replacement? 

Jim

2002 Monaco 36'

Ft. Worth,  TX.

I suggest starting with the Amazon link I sent.

 

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10 hours ago, Jim Andrews said:

Thanks for the responses and I'm VERY glad I asked.  If you look at the picture, one side has a yellow, white, green going in and yellow, red, green coming out.  What type of connection is this?  What would I ask for or search for to get the correct replacement? 

Jim

2002 Monaco 36'

Ft. Worth,  TX.

Jim,

You need to look at the Amazon link provided.  Order one of the boxes for $11 there.  The wiring is a little confusing, but you will also need to following.....  I do not recommend the Truck Spring complete kit as that is for a entire trailer where you have lights on either side.  The Amazon link is the ONE THAT YOU NEED....

OK....Here goes.   The THREE wires come from the MH Side or wiring.  The TWO wires goes to your Trailer Hitch Socket on the MH....  That is important that you understand that... 

STOP or BRAKE LIGHT.  That is from the Brake Pedal up front.  That lights up the CENTER or the HIGH Brake Light.  That SHOULD be the center wire on the THREE wire side of the box. 

Your MH Socket typically only uses 4 wires for a Trailer or for the TOAD.

Ground

Parking Light (Monaco directly wired the Parking or Tail or Clearance Lights to that pin.

Left Turn/Stop 

Right Turn/Stop.

OPPS.... Monaco has THREE separate wires for the LEFT Turn/ Stop and the RIGHT Turn/Stop.  So they had to use the box to get a TWO WIRE signal.

The color codes will be different, I think, from your pictures.  You will need to identify WHICH wire is coming from the Trainer Hitch Socket to the Box.  Here is my BEST GUESS.....

The CENTER WIRE on the 3 side ....and you will have to use a test light when you cut it off to confirm SHOULD be the Brake Light.  With the engine running, have someone press the brake and use a VOM or test light.....that will go to the WHITE wire on the NEW box.

HOPEFULLY the Yellow and Green are correct.  So if you test the GREEN (on the three wire side), that SHOULD be the Right Turn.  SO the Yellow is the LEFT turn.

I can NOT tell the colors of the two outgoing wires from the picture.... One LOOKS Green.  If you chase that wire down to the MH socket....it SHOULD be the RIGHT Turn/Stop.  That means the other wire (is it RED?) has to the the LEFT one.    SO.....hook them up or test them.  

NOW....I do NOT recommend the Scotch Lock connectors (blue ones like the Truck Spring kit has).  You will need to use Butt Spices and spice in a new box.  That is really simple.  Youtube has videos.  I have recommended, if you are not familiar with this, two things to buy and have for the MH.  I and several others carry a crimper and connectors at all times.

https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-Ratcheting-Crimper-10-22/dp/B07WMB61J5/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=ratcheting+crimper&qid=1596976718&sr=8-5

If that link breaks, then go into Amazon and put in Klein Tools Ratcheting Crimper.  It is $25.  EVERY MH OWNER SHOULD HAVE ONE IN HIS RIG.

You will also need a Crimp Electrical Connection Kit  There are MANY.  This one looks like a good one.

https://www.amazon.com/Insulated-Wire-Electrical-Connectors-Assortment/dp/B078PMWNJC/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3QO6J0JFNCBOA&dchild=1&keywords=crimp+electrical+connectors+kit&qid=1596977006&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011%2Cp_72%3A1248921011&rnid=1248919011&rps=1&s=industrial&sprefix=crimp+electrical+connecto%2Caps%2C166&sr=1-4

Once you have identified the wires, then strip back the insulation.  Odds are, they will use the BLUE....but if Monaco cheated, then they will use the Red.  If the wires easily slip into the RED...then use that....if not, go up to the next size, Blue and use them.

That should do it.  Good luck...

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Thanks again for all the help. I never thought a little thing like this would get this much input. I greatly appreciate it.

As for an update. I attached another couple pictures to verify colors of the wires.   It's actually white. . After looking at the replacement units, they seem to be called 3 in 2 out. Mine has 3 in and 3 out. Yellow, white and green on one side. I know the Yellow is the left turn signal because I metered the blinker pulsating to 11.5V on the yellow going in, nothing coming out on the yellow or any other lead coming out as I tested all three. Right side works okay and it is the green wire. I don't know what the center one is for just yet. I assume it's for the breaks. It is white, but discolored to red/white coming out of the little box as you can see in the attached image.  After know what to look for, I found this on Amazon.  This is what it looks like to me,  I need.  Agreed?  

And again, this website is so helpful. Thank all of you for your quick response and help.

61W3dYLKndL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

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Since you have 3 wires in and 3 wires out, it could be this type (see below).  It's hard to tell from your picture whether the box is a 2 to 3 converter or something else.     https://www.homedepot.com/p/CURT-2-to-3-Wire-Taillight-Converter-56196/205632568 .

As Tom said, it's a good idea to to test the wires.  A meter helps verify which are  coming in and which out.  If you expose wire ends, check with a meter  (or test light) to see which wire is energized when the the left turn signal is on, which is energized from the right.  An ohmmeter will show if the third wire on that end  is grounded (near zero ohm).   Also, at the other end, if you get, say 5 to 10 Ohm on two, and about half that on the third, it is likely the box is of the type below;   (1157 taillight bulbs  would read 5 to 8 ohm,  LED's, less. )   

That would be if two of  the wires turn out to be left and right turn and both are energized by brake, with third being ground.  There may be other possibilities and the box could be something else.  Note that this as well as other adapters may be available locally.  Butt connectors too.  

.. Rick P.

image.png.75c08e3467410b9c94f26c974aadfcf5.png

 

Jim, After writing my post I saw yours (I work slowly).  Looks you are on to the right type of converter.    If both the yellow and green  going in are good it appears you have the problem in hand.   That white should be connected to a good ground; that can be checked when you do the replacement.

 

 .. RIckP

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1 hour ago, Jim Andrews said:

Thanks again for all the help. I never thought a little thing like this would get this much input. I greatly appreciate it.

As for an update. I attached another couple pictures to verify colors of the wires.   It's actually white. . After looking at the replacement units, they seem to be called 3 in 2 out. Mine has 3 in and 3 out. Yellow, white and green on one side. I know the Yellow is the left turn signal because I metered the blinker pulsating to 11.5V on the yellow going in, nothing coming out on the yellow or any other lead coming out as I tested all three. Right side works okay and it is the green wire. I don't know what the center one is for just yet. I assume it's for the breaks. It is white, but discolored to red/white coming out of the little box as you can see in the attached image.  After know what to look for, I found this on Amazon.  This is what it looks like to me,  I need.  Agreed?  

And again, this website is so helpful. Thank all of you for your quick response and help.

61W3dYLKndL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

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Jim,

This is FASCINATING.....as well as confusing.  There WAS a trend to go to the "European" system of separate turn signal and brake lights many years ago.  I have read your posts and look at the various boxes.  

What I would do, before I did purchased something is do some real trouble shooting.  You seem to understand HOW to do that.

What confuses me....and you need to verify.  Monaco did NOT PREWIRE the Trailer Connection for "Brakes" until 2005/6.  I looked at your ONLINE manual and there is nary a drawing or comment about how to hook up or wire a trailer.  The Brochure states that you have a 6 Pin Connector.  I assume that MAYBE you have a drawing.  IF NOT....then, since you have been testing..., I would verify how your trailer connector is wired.  ODDS ARE....and this is a SWAG....you have 5 pins for the TOAD.  That is Ground: Stop; Left Turn; Right Turn; Parking.  So you have the EUROPEAN output.  The OTHER wire or the 6th is PROBABLY for the Charging or 12VDC.

BUT....I WOULD FIND OUT.....  

If i read your comments and also look at the other posts.....then you have a "3 IN" and "3 OUT" box.  The ONLY difference is how the GROUND works.  you can get THREE types.  Powered....which are more expensive and a bit more complex.  Grounded (as in your system....assuming it has the THIRD wire on the INPUT side) and UNGROUNDED....That only has TWO incoming wires.....the one that a poster suggested before we knew WHICH you had.  That MIGHT work as the electronics are different.  BUT....since you have 3 in and 3 out....go with that (MY ADVICE....your call).

Your Monaco PROBABLY has the conventional (Old fashioned?) system.  You have a LEFT TURN AND LEFT STOP LIGHT and the same for the RIGHT.  So, you have TWO wires....

BUT you need to SPLIT that signal.  You need a LEFT TURN, RIGHT TURN and STOP (as well as a Parking and Ground) for the European 5 light system.

The Amazon device that was posted does NOT need the WHITE or the Ground.  IF your box has 3 wires on each side....then you need a box with the 6 wires....one of which is the GROUND to make the Box's Electronics work.  The Curt unit that Home Depot advertises or lists SHOULD be an exact replacement for your box.  

https://www.homedepot.com/p/CURT-2-to-3-Wire-Taillight-Converter-56196/205632568?modalType=drawer

Whether you buy LOCALLY or order from Amazon is a personal choice that each of us HAS to make and we, the moderators, keep this APOLITICAL and we don't get into the politics of whether an IMPORTED part or item (country of Origin is PH or Phillipines according to the ASIN info)  should be purchased from a local source or from an online source.   It was NOT Made in the USA....end of that topic and discussion....

Same as the to the Ratcheting Crimper.  You need a GOOD ratcheting crimper.  No good electrician, especially automotive, uses the cheap pliers type crimpers.  YES, if you have enough grip strength....but for a perfect, every time crimp....which is a DOUBLE crimp, you need a good quality ratcheting crimper.  Wire nuts and soldering are NOT recommended for 12 VDC circuits on a motor home due to the vibration.  NEC code for 120 VAC require a MECHANICAL connection.... (wire nuts or such).  BUT, Wire Nuts are for things that don't move or shake.  The 3M ScotchLok will corrode and also the "V" knife or cut into the insulation has limited surface.  YES, I use these.....if I have to but I always try to CUT and SPLICE or use Terminals....

This should be clear now.....but do CHECK the circuits.  Your post with the diagram and such makes me think that you now have a source and you have the electrical trouble shooting knowledge.  Now is it just a matter of cutting and stripping and crimping.  Your old black box....done bit the dust.  It is almost old enough to join the Army...

Glad we were able to help... 

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Again, I want to thank all of you for your input and help. I have ordered the Curt Converter, The Klien Ratcheting Crimper and the Crip Electrical Connection Kit as suggested.  It's a two week delivery so I will update and post the final result when finished.

After looking at the connector from Tom's post, I want to confirm the dinghy connection is the European Connector.  I did have to re-arrange the pin connections that came with my tow-bar some 4 years ago.

One more thing I have to say.  This Forum is the absolute BEST!  The responses were quick and I am so impressed on how much time all of you have taken to help a fellow Coach owner and new to this forum.  The time you have taken, to explain in such a detailed way resolving my problem, is both impressive and inspirational.  Maybe someday I can be a contributor to others like all of you have been to me.

Thanks again.  ☺️

Jim Andrews

02 Cayman 

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Jim, while maybe not pertinent, it's wise to note that some, notice I said some, applications use the mount for a ground so you won't have that extra wire. Monaco used white wires almost exclusively for their grounds.....Dennis

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

SNIP/

Whether you buy LOCALLY or order from Amazon is a personal choice that each of us HAS to make and we, the moderators, keep this APOLITICAL and we don't get into the politics of whether an IMPORTED part or item (country of Origin is PH or Phillipines according to the ASIN info)  should be purchased from a local source or from an online source.   It was NOT Made in the USA....end of that topic and discussion.... SNIP/

Tom,  my post had nothing to do with politics. Buying local means if it doesn't work/fit/whatever means you can take it back to your LOCAL store and exchange/return it. It usually also means you don't have to wait for someone to deliver it to your home and hope some thief doesn't need it more than you do.  Yes, I would prefer to buy American as our products usually have more quality control than do other countries but keep in mind we have become a 'throw away' society instead of the 'fix it and keep it forever' society of yesteryear so we tend to buy by cost not quality......safe travels....Dennis

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15 hours ago, Dennis H said:

Jim, while maybe not pertinent, it's wise to note that some, notice I said some, applications use the mount for a ground so you won't have that extra wire. Monaco used white wires almost exclusively for their grounds.....Dennis

Tom,  my post had nothing to do with politics. Buying local means if it doesn't work/fit/whatever means you can take it back to your LOCAL store and exchange/return it. It usually also means you don't have to wait for someone to deliver it to your home and hope some thief doesn't need it more than you do.  Yes, I would prefer to buy American as our products usually have more quality control than do other countries but keep in mind we have become a 'throw away' society instead of the 'fix it and keep it forever' society of yesteryear so we tend to buy by cost not quality......safe travels....Dennis

We are on the same page.....unfortunately I have seen family discussions and also online discussions about local vs online morph in the politics of people that are the online owners.....then that gets into the big box vs mom and pop shops and such.  We don't want to go down that path.

Each of us has to make our own judgement call as to who we patronize and why.   If you have problems with Porch Pirates, then that is obviously a consideration for local vs  online.  What is interesting, at least in the Raleigh area, is that prices seem to have stabilized....maybe just the stuff that I need for me or for the Church or whatever.  I rarely check an online price when I am in Lowes anymore.....  They seem to be matching that Bezos guy's prices.....  BUT, there is always an exception.  I needed 30 fluorescent ballasts for the church.  Lowes was $20 or maybe higher as one of our other "fixers" had been buying them there  I did some research and ordered them for $10 each in a 10 each case quantity from Amazon....  

Lately vitamin supplements (we seem to take more as we age and we are taking precautions with Covid) have become a commodity item.  The online prices and CVS and Walgreens and Target and sometimes the local supermarket are all within 10%.  SO, we purchase locally from Walgreens or our local Supermarket as NC now taxes all online purchases and we get 5% back on our AMEX card plus a 5% discount on Thursday.....which is SR Discount day.

Even bicycle parts, which have been a hot commodity here, are about the same price in the nice, family owned or small franchised stores.....which was a little surprising.

Glad you understand why I tried to keep this on track and leave out the politics.....we went down that path, way too many times on the old site.....

 

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That box is a converter box using diodes to combine the turn signal and brake light for your tow vehicle . The MH has separate lites for brake and turn signal therefor 3 circuits versus 2 for the t ow vehicle. You can buy  them at any auto parts store.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Quick summary of what I have done. I originally wired the Cort "color for color" on both sides like it was before I started (annotation 1) and nothing worked. I reversed the input wires and output wires (Caption 2) like the instructions said and I get TS's or Flashers Working, but don't know what to do about the Red wire/Brakes.   I'm Stumped. This shouldn't be this hard. I do have a pin on my  coach connector" called BL for brake lights.

Here is my detailed update. This shouldn't be this hard. I got my Curt in yesterday and went to install it today.  I attached a couple pictures here to explain this a little better.

If I connect it according to the schematic with the Cort, I can get the flasher's, LTS and RTS to flash 12V on my voltmeter. (The box even has a distinct clicking to reflect the signal is working). All that works for the above configuration.

Now my confusion. I don't know what to do with the Red wire. It's says it's "for the brakes", but it's not making sense. According to the document provided, the "coach" is considered "input" to the Curt. Green, White Yellow,".  Output" is to the towing vehicle is Green, Red,  Yellow. The Red says it's for the brake. As you can see in the picture (capture 2). I have the Red from the Coach hanging loose on purpose. The other Red hanging is the "output" going to the towing vehicle. If I connect the two Reds together for the brake lights to work, one would have to assume the Curt device would do something "internally" to turn on the brake lights (which I seriously doubt). It doesn't make logical or electric DC sense to me and that's why I'm asking you guys. 

I feel pretty sure if I connect the red from the coach to the white input, (which is called ground) I will pop a fuse somewhere. Does anyone think I should connect the Red from the coach to the white input of the Cort to see if the brake lights would work? The white was originally going to the chassis.  Should I just bypass the (output) Cort Red wire altogether for my brakes to work and wire it straight to the toad connection. Any thoughts? This 30 minute job has turned into a three hour job so far.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I'm using the wire nuts only to make sure the lights work and should have done that to test it first. I already wasted 6 connectors. When I get it working right, I will use proper connectors and button it up properly.

Jim

02 Cayman

 

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I'll take a shot.  Other will also.  I pulled the CURT Print.  i am a bit confused....so bare with me...

this is YOUR quote from a past post....

Thanks for the responses and I'm VERY glad I asked.  If you look at the picture, one side has a yellow, white, green going in and yellow, red, green coming out.  What type of connection is this?  What would I ask for or search for to get the correct replacement? 
Here is what, I think, you have...and If I LOOK at your picture, I think I see them....

You have a RED and a Green and a YELLOW on the Coach Side.  That PROBABLY means that you had a totally DIFFERENT style of converter.  That WAS discussed and pointed out....but you have the exact OPPOSITE now.  SO, you are going to have to try it THIS way.  Remember there are POWERED and NON POWERED.  The CURT plainly states....NO EXTERNAL POWER NEEDED....or it is NON Powered.  Based on the color codes, I am guessing that the RED is the power....FOR your OLD POWERED CONVERTER....  MIGHT be hot all the time or might only come on when the switch is on.  WHO KNOWS....this is Monaco. BUT, you do NOT need the RED wire.  Your CURT unit is NON POWERED.. SO...cap OFF the RED....FROM THE COACH.  IT is NOT needed....

BTW.....in the NOTHING WORKS....that would be RIGHT.  The Converter is wired backwards.  SO.....that ain't the SOLUTION.

From the TOP.  HOOK IT UP LIKE THE DIAGRAM SAYS....  The COACH SIDE is the INPUT.  The TOAD is the OUTPUT...

On the INPUT Side....  Attach the WIRES from the COACH HERE...

Green IS RIGHT....so Green goes to GREEN. 

Yellow to Yellow.

You MUST GROUND the WHITE WIRE.  Find a SUITABLE GROUND (or a good screw that you unscrew and GROUND IT.  

CAP OFF (do NOT use) the RED WIRE.  This unit does NOT require POWER.  You old one did....

BTW....I am STILL a little CONFUSED....you said there was a WHITE wire.  WHERE is it?  I see the RED, YELLOW and GREEN from the MH....but you don;t show the wires on the TOAD side....so, I'm gonna go out on a limb here.  You have THREE wires on the toad side.  Green, Yellow and WHITE.  BUT, don't let color be your guide.  The WHITE wire is PROBABLY the STOP or BRAKE LIGHT.  I THOUGHT you (or maybe someone else) said you had a BL on you MH plug.  THAT is where the RED would go.... You MUST trace the wires to be sure....

On the TOAD side....do it this way...

Green to GREEN  

Yellow to Yellow.

TRACE the remaining WIRE.  Verify (With NO connector in the MH socket)....run a GROUND TEST.  USE the resistance setting.  It should be ISOLATED.  If it goes to GROUND....then GOD HELP US....the three wires GOING to the TOAD have to be LT, RT and STOP

SO IF there is NO ground or WHITE wire on the MH side....then we are good to go....

You hook the RED output (Brake) to wire left over....you have identified GREEN and YELLOW....the OTHER wire is BRAKE...so regardless of the color, the RED wire goes there.

NOTE.....there is a separate GROUND wire that connects the MH and the TOAD....That wire in inside the Unbilical cord....

So, you have FIVE wires that control the HHR's lights.

GROUND...  The GROUND does NOT come through the box....

LT

RT

STOP This is the THIRD wire that you unhooked on the TOAD side...and RED "SHOULD" go to it....

PARK. - It does NOT go through the box.....so it is like the GROUND....we ain't dealing with it. 

I know this sounds or may sound confusing.  BUT, you are working with an APPLE (your OLD Unit) and an ORANGE (you NEW unit).  If the above does NOT work....then  go back to square ONE>>>> Find a TECH and get it fixed OR  GET A POWERED UNIT and hook it up.  MY GUESS is that there is a GROUND or there is a METAL tab or mounting hole on the OLD box.  THAT is the ground that makes it work.  They did NOT run a GROUND wire and you get it through the mounting screw.  If your does NOT work that way, then I am at a loss.  Remember, you have to use the INPUT WHITE and get it to GROUND for the Box to WORK.  I don't know about clicking or such....the above is the way it is supposed to work and you have not got it installed, quite yet...quite right....and I THINK the above will fix it....

Good Luck.  Give us FEED back.....

 

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Everything Tom said depends on the CURT being new and not used. CURT custom makes their units if you so desire, so if you purchased a used unit anything is possible. I had a hookup that used the ball connection as the ground for the car so there was no extra wire coming from the car to the coach. That may confuse you even more. Make sure you use diodes in the HHR if it's a new install. Keep us posted....Dennis

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Problem Solved.

Update of the Curt Turn Signal box problem. It turns out I had the wrong Curt box. It was converting a 2 to 3 wire system which won't work and what I needed was converting a 3  to 2 wire system. How did I find that out?

I called the Curt company and they were really helpful as well. How he explained what a 3 wire system was; A 3 wire has separate brake lights/lenses and separate turn signal lights/lens. My MH has separate TS and BL (3 wire).  A 2 wire system uses the same lens for the brake light and turn signal. The Curt converter box is what switches 3 wire to 2 thus, 3-2 wire Curt unit. The reason the one I show in the pictures didn't work was because it was a 2-3 (one lens for BL/TS to separate BL/TL lenses on what you are pulling). The Curt unit and I needed the 3-2 wire unit.  My MH is the 3 and the HHR toad is the 2. Once I got the right one in, it hooked up easily and all works like its supposed to.

I want to thank "all of you" for your inputs and the time you spent writing about it.

Hopefully we all learned a little something.  I know I did.

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On 8/9/2020 at 5:16 PM, Dennis H said:

Jim, while maybe not pertinent, it's wise to note that some, notice I said some, applications use the mount for a ground so you won't have that extra wire. Monaco used white wires almost exclusively for their grounds.....Dennis

Tom,  my post had nothing to do with politics. Buying local means if it doesn't work/fit/whatever means you can take it back to your LOCAL store and exchange/return it. It usually also means you don't have to wait for someone to deliver it to your home and hope some thief doesn't need it more than you do.  Yes, I would prefer to buy American as our products usually have more quality control than do other countries but keep in mind we have become a 'throw away' society instead of the 'fix it and keep it forever' society of yesteryear so we tend to buy by cost not quality......safe travels....Dennis

You are right ...I bought my replacement from my local napa store ..Hooked it all up and it didn't work,tested all the output wires and nothing !
Took it back and got another, what are the odds of getting two in a row bad ?
The third one worked !

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