VIP Smart wheel issue

[Brett63]

Hey all, posting everywhere I can find. But I have an 09 Signature and I have lost operation of the right side of my smart wheel, so basically the wipers. The left side works fine. I have checked manuals and found a 15a, a 25a and two relays in the fwd runbox dealing with the wipers. All of those are good. When i go to the Smart wheel manual to troubleshoot from there I was able to check the voltages of the connector in the steering column (under the center of the steering wheel) but that is as far as I can go. So two questions:

1. Does anyone have any ideas....lol I do have the fwd multiplex system

2. Does anyone have any idea where the VIP control module would be on this coach? it is not in the fwd run box where I suspected it would be. We are kinda stuck with no wipers as it is snowing and supposed to rain for a few days.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance,

Brett

[Scotty Hutto]

Brett,

On my 2006 Diplomat, it’s mounted on the firewall to the left of the steering wheel at about knee level.  
 

hope that helps

[Dr4Film]

First off identify which Smart Wheel (PC, V4 or V44) you have by looking here.

https://www.vipwheels.com/technical-support

Next remove the center cover using instructions in the manual for your model. There are two multiplex connectors under that cover, one for each side. I would first try to clean up those connectors with contact cleaner to see if that helps. Next there are connectors further down the steering column which should be cleaned also. If that doesn't solve the problem then once you find your VIP control module you can perform the troubleshooting steps provided in the manual.

[Brett63]

11 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

First off identify which Smart Wheel (PC, V4 or V44) you have by looking here.

https://www.vipwheels.com/technical-support

Next remove the center cover using instructions in the manual for your model. There are two multiplex connectors under that cover, one for each side. I would first try to clean up those connectors with contact cleaner to see if that helps. Next there are connectors further down the steering column which should be cleaned also. If that doesn't solve the problem then once you find your VIP control module you can perform the troubleshooting steps provided in the manual.

Mine is the V4 as the book says first year of the V44 was 2009. My coach is an 09, but was built in 08. I have removed the center section to the steering wheel. There is only one plug, everything runs up the column to the left side and then over to the right. There is no plug between the two side. Everything was good there. I also did the power tests there using a multimeter and the values in the manual, those values were correct. The left side works fine. SO it is either something in the left side not allowing the right side to work or the module not allowing the right side to work.. Now to find the module, but we have been in near whiteout all day today, so working outside has been pretty tough.

[Ivan K]

Our Sig is 9 years older but the module is in the front run bay, on it's side...

[Brett63]

11 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

Our Sig is 9 years older but the module is in the front run bay, on it's side...

yep that is where I suspected it would be, but it's not. I had another guy say his was in the forward bay, drivers side forward bulkhead. Will check in the am

 

[Frank McElroy]

Brett, you have a chassis multiplex system. 

ALL the controls that are in the smart wheel control box are programmed into your CCM module in the front run bay.  So on your coach, you do NOT have a smart wheel controller.

The steering wheel keypads work by supplying certain voltages on two wires that run from the keypads through the clock spring to the CCM module.  The voltages listed in the smart wheel troubleshooting guide would be the same inputs to your ccm module (connector J1, pins 24 & 25).  It is critical that there is a good ground and a clean connector at the base of the steering wheel.  It is also critical that you verified that the clock spring in the steering column has continuity with no shorts or dead spots through complete wheel rotation.

If you can't find the troubleshooting documentation in the downloads section, let me know.

[Brett63]

1 hour ago, Frank McElroy said:

Brett, you have a chassis multiplex system. 

ALL the controls that are in the smart wheel control box are programmed into your CCM module in the front run bay.  So on your coach, you do NOT have a smart wheel controller.

The steering wheel keypads work by supplying certain voltages on two wires that run from the keypads through the clock spring to the CCM module.  The voltages listed in the smart wheel troubleshooting guide would be the same inputs to your ccm module.  It is critical that there is a good ground and a clean connector at the base of the steering wheel.  It is also critical that you verified that the clock spring in the steering column has continuity with no shorts or dead spots through complete week rotation.

If you can't find the troubleshooting documentation in the downloads section, let me know.

I have the trouble shooting manual for the VIP with multiplex, but it says to go to the module and disconnect this plug and that one.....The only other tests are testing voltages at the plug in under the steering center. I checked those and they were within specs of what the manual said. So that is where I got lost.

 

[Frank McElroy]

I would verify the voltages on ccm connector J1 pins 24 and 25 and compare them to the table in the smartwheel manual as you press each smart wheel button.  They need to be a near exact match.  A loose ground will mess up the lower reading voltages and the wipers are most sensitive to a loose ground while the other are not.

Also, have you verified that the wiper fuse under the ccm cover is OK?

Keep in mind that the large PCB in the front run bay is problematic.  A number have shorted causing a fire.  This is documented in the downloads and how to properly fuse the battery feeds to this PCB.  So, look very closely to make sure you see no burn marks on this board.

[Frank McElroy]

Brett, I thought it might be useful to attach the pertinent pdf wiring diagram files.  They are all in the downloads but sometimes specific diagrams might be hard to find especially when certain higher end coaches like yours and mine might have well over 100 file pages of schematics.  These schematics also show how the steering wheel keypads are connected to the CCM module on a multiplex chassis coach like yours without the smart wheel control box. 

Let's hope that this is not a failed CCM.  That module is obsolete and virtually impossible to find in a salvage yard.   The OEM (Kongsberg) will not program a new one either.   A few months back I did find one at Visone RV in Kentucky - they know the value of this critical obsolete part and wanted $10,000 for it!!!  The CCM is the brains of the chassis multiplex system.  If it should ever completely fail about your only option is to try to have it rebuilt assuming its an internal bad relay or use your coach permanently parked in a campground.

38080795_B Wipers.pdf 38090532 Cruise Control.pdf 03215100_A Vehicle Cabin PCB Label.pdf 27000652_B Vehicle Cabin PCB.pdf CCM fuses front and rear.pdf

[Ivan K]

Wow, is it really so much of an irreplaceable heart of the all coach systems that it could not be worked around or even "downgraded" to the simpler, less centralized configuration as some of our older and maybe "less intelligent" models? Sort of glad to be in that category.

[Dr4Film]

If I had owned a multiplex coach I would have had the program backed up on day one of ownership and then stored in a safe deposit box.

This is one main reason I still own a 2002 Windsor with no intentions of ever upgrading.

The coach doesn't look pretty with all of its surface imperfections inside and out but I keep it mechanically sound as best as I can.

[Brett63]

9 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

Brett, I thought it might be useful to attach the pertinent pdf wiring diagram files.  They are all in the downloads but sometimes specific diagrams might be hard to find especially when certain higher end coaches like yours and mine might have well over 100 file pages of schematics.  These schematics also show how the steering wheel keypads are connected to the CCM module on a multiplex chassis coach like yours without the smart wheel control box. 

Let's hope that this is not a failed CCM.  That module is obsolete and virtually impossible to find in a salvage yard.   The OEM (Kongsberg) will not program a new one either.   A few months back I did find one at Visone RV in Kentucky - they know the value of this critical obsolete part and wanted $10,000 for it!!!  The CCM is the brains of the chassis multiplex system.  If it should ever completely fail about your only option is to try to have it rebuilt assuming its an internal bad relay or use your coach permanently parked in a campground.

38080795_B Wipers.pdf 80.87 kB · 3 downloads 38090532 Cruise Control.pdf 65.14 kB · 0 downloads 03215100_A Vehicle Cabin PCB Label.pdf 735.54 kB · 2 downloads 27000652_B Vehicle Cabin PCB.pdf 214.25 kB · 1 download CCM fuses front and rear.pdf 214.58 kB · 4 downloads

Great help Frank, here is a question, where would you even go to have this issue worked on? How many RV places know about the multiplex systems enough to work on them?

[Frank McElroy]

Brett, great question. 

I know M&M in Ohio is trying to help someone I know with a chassis multiplex dash switch issue but they are on a very steep learning curve.  They are good with intellitec house lighting multiplex systems but the chassis multiplex system is a different animal entirely.  Unlike the intellitec system, unless a shop has the Kongsberg Cadet software you can't read or troubleshoot the CCM system.  You also need the Eaton software to troubleshoot, read and program the dash switch master and slave control boards that are under each set of 3 dash switches.  Yep, all your dash switches are also on another multiplex system that feeds the CCM module.  This gets complicated really fast.

Back when this first came out the kongsberg software was free but now they want about $500 for it.  Eaton software used to be free also but don't know now if it is still available.

I know there is a Monaco service center on the west coast that is good but the location escapes me.

In your case, I'd first measure voltages on the pins I mentioned and verify grounds and the wiper fuse under the ccm cover.  Right now you know more about the system than most any other repair shop except for the two I know about.  You could try calling a shop and ask them if they have the cadet software to troubleshoot kongsberg chassis multiplex systems.  If they say what are you talking about, well that's an answer.

[Brett63]

44 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Brett, great question. 

I know M&M in Ohio is trying to help someone I know with a chassis multiplex dash switch issue but they are on a very steep learning curve.  They are good with intellitec house lighting multiplex systems but the chassis multiplex system is a different animal entirely.  Unlike the intellitec system, unless a shop has the Kongsberg Cadet software you can't read or troubleshoot the CCM system.  You also need the Eaton software to troubleshoot, read and program the dash switch master and slave control boards that are under each set of 3 dash switches.  Yep, all your dash switches are also on another multiplex system that feeds the CCM module.  This gets complicated really fast.

Back when this first came out the kongsberg software was free but now they want about $500 for it.  Eaton software used to be free also but don't know now if it is still available.

I know there is a Monaco service center on the west coast that is good but the location escapes me.

In your case, I'd first measure voltages on the pins I mentioned and verify grounds and the wiper fuse under the ccm cover.  Right now you know more about the system than most any other repair shop except for the two I know about.  You could try calling a shop and ask them if they have the cadet software to troubleshoot kongsberg chassis multiplex systems.  If they say what are you talking about, well that's an answer.

Yes I have worked with M&M a few times on the intellitec system. Sounds like we have a real mess on our hands, speaking of anyone with the FWD multiplex system. When checking voltages on the pins you mention, is that checking with a button push on the wheel, or just checking incoming voltage with key on? I suspect with steering wheel button pushes the same way I checked the upper plug in the steering wheel? I am also going to try and bypass the CCM for the wipers as a temp get around and just run a couple switches up into the cab for on/off hi/low. After all a wiper motor is a wiper motor is a wiper motor. They just need a hot and not....lol All I know right now is everything worked fine when we pulled in two months ago and now it don't...lol

Now with that said, I wonder if killing shore and battery power and going cold coach and then powering back up might would do a reset? It also appears by the service manual that the J2 plug is the main feed plug as it is always first to unplug and last to plug back. So I wonder if doing an unplug and plug sequence on the CCM could/would do a reset? Any idea,  am sure it can't hurt.

[Scotty Hutto]

11 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

Let's hope that this is not a failed CCM.  That module is obsolete and virtually impossible to find in a salvage yard.   The OEM (Kongsberg) will not program a new one either.   A few months back I did find one at Visone RV in Kentucky - they know the value of this critical obsolete part and wanted $10,000 for it!!!  The CCM is the brains of the chassis multiplex system.  If it should ever completely fail about your only option is to try to have it rebuilt assuming its an internal bad relay or use your coach permanently parked in a campground.

Sounds like a challenge for one of the smartest guys I know...  I bet @pwhittle could come up with a solution for less than $10k a pop!!

[Frank McElroy]

Yes, the test is done by taking voltage reading while holding down each button.  Just like you did under the dash.

You could try disconnecting the batteries to reboot but I doubt this will fix the problem.

Send me an offline email with a table of the voltage readings at the CCM as each smartwheel button is pressed and I help troubleshoot.

[Brett63]

3 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Yes, the test is done by taking voltage reading while holding down each button.  Just like you did under the dash.

You could try disconnecting the batteries to reboot but I doubt this will fix the problem.

Send me an offline email with a table of the voltage readings at the CCM as each smartwheel button is pressed and I help troubleshoot.

Will do, really appreciate the assistance. Sounds like you are pretty sharp on this.

[fasher194040]

18 hours ago, Brett63 said:

Hey all, posting everywhere I can find. But I have an 09 Signature and I have lost operation of the right side of my smart wheel, so basically the wipers. The left side works fine. I have checked manuals and found a 15a, a 25a and two relays in the fwd runbox dealing with the wipers. All of those are good. When i go to the Smart wheel manual to troubleshoot from there I was able to check the voltages of the connector in the steering column (under the center of the steering wheel) but that is as far as I can go. So two questions:

1. Does anyone have any ideas....lol I do have the fwd multiplex system

2. Does anyone have any idea where the VIP control module would be on this coach? it is not in the fwd run box where I suspected it would be. We are kinda stuck with no wipers as it is snowing and supposed to rain for a few days.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance,

Brett

I have a 09 Dynasty that had similar smart wheel issues that eventually failed completely. I replaced the steering wheel clock spring and it didn't help. M&M RV Electronics found the the problem  to be the multi plex power supply in the front run bay that has a 5 volt internal power supply that was weak and they installed an external new 5 volt power supply and it solved the problem. 

Fred A

09 Dynasty and 13 Ford Explorer toad

[Frank McElroy]

Fred good to know.  The 5 volts comes from the CCM and feeds the steering wheel keypads.  A bad supply power or a bad ground will show up as incorrect voltages on those two control wires when keypads are pressed.  Brett should know soon.  Good to know that M&M was able to fix the problem.

[Brett63]

29 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Fred good to know.  The 5 volts comes from the CCM and feeds the steering wheel keypads.  A bad supply power or a bad ground will show up as incorrect voltages on those two control wires when keypads are pressed.  Brett should know soon.  Good to know that M&M was able to fix the problem.

Yep, gonna be a little later on, Wife works on Mondays. Hard to put leads on and read meter outside and push the buttons inside. I am good, but I aint that good...or fast...lol

30 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Fred good to know.  The 5 volts comes from the CCM and feeds the steering wheel keypads.  A bad supply power or a bad ground will show up as incorrect voltages on those two control wires when keypads are pressed.  Brett should know soon.  Good to know that M&M was able to fix the problem.

Stupid question, I am tired. Am I testing voltage at the plug when I unplug J1, or at the pin on the CCM. I am not sure whci way power is flowing on the CCM. In the interim I am going to rig two switches and bypass the computer all together and see if I can get a high and low with straight power for a temp fix.

[Frank McElroy]

Those voltages are measured with J1 still plugged in.  This would be between pin 24 to ground and pin 25 to ground as you press an hold each button.  By any chance did you record the exact reading you got from the connector at the steering column and did you verify +5 volts and ground as you pressed each button?   Years ago I had a similar case that was solved by just reseating that plug connection at the base of the steering wheel.

[Brett63]

32 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Those voltages are measured with J1 still plugged in.  This would be between pin 24 to ground and pin 25 to ground as you press an hold each button.  By any chance did you record the exact reading you got from the connector at the steering column and did you verify +5 volts and ground as you pressed each button?   Years ago I had a similar case that was solved by just reseating that plug connection at the base of the steering wheel.

I don't think I will be able to get a probe on multimeter in the plug to be able to hit the pins on 24 and 25. I will have to check but I don't think I can.

[Brett63]

52 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Those voltages are measured with J1 still plugged in.  This would be between pin 24 to ground and pin 25 to ground as you press an hold each button.  By any chance did you record the exact reading you got from the connector at the steering column and did you verify +5 volts and ground as you pressed each button?   Years ago I had a similar case that was solved by just reseating that plug connection at the base of the steering wheel.

Frank, this is the J1 plug. There is no way to probe a wire with it plugged in unless I open the wire insulation.

[Dr4Film]

Brett, I have used a pin or needle to push through the wire I want to probe for voltage. Then just use your alligator clipped to the probe.