Fass pump install

[jegall]

I just completed my FASS pump install. It took about 3 hours and a hour and half finding a fitting and buying return hose . Cost $649 for kit $91 for fuel hose 35 ft and $18 for fitting ,nipple. It was way simpler then I anticipated. I let the system run for about 10 minutes before starting engine. The engine ran much smoother I could definitely notice the difference. Will road test today .

Edited December 13, 2021 by jegall
Pictures

[Rikadoo]

Hello Jim, so what engine do you have in your coach? Like you the first thing i noticed was how smooth it ran, espesially at idel cause now i can see whats in my side view mirrors. Plus how easy it starts now!

[jegall]

I have a ISL 400hp with side radiator makes for easy install. I removed the first fuel filter and used the mounting bracket . I would post picture’s but do not how on this site.

[CaymanXL]

CAn anyone point me in the right direction for a fass system for a 2007 Cayman with ISB? Is this ISB essentially the same as the one in dodge rams? Thanks in advance!

[jacwjames]

I bought my system from Parley's Diesel, it was the best price I could find, free shipping and no tax.   I got it in 3 days.

The kits they sell are for pickup trucks so you won't use some of the parts/pieces.   I mounted mine up front near the fuel tank, made the wiring and return hosing easy.  Used the original fuel hose from the FASS to back, I bypassed the original lift pump (put a union to tie the hoses together).  For the time being I left the primary filter in place but will remove at some point.  I put a fuel pressure gauge on top of the secondary filter. 

FASS Titanium Signature Series 100 GPH Lift Pump for 1998.5-2004 Dodge Ram 5.9L Cummins TSD08100G

https://www.parleysdieselperformance.com/products/fass-titanium-signature-series-100-gph-lift-pump-for-1998-5-2004-dodge-ram-5-9l-cummins-tsd08100g

I ended up getting a fuel hose made up from NAPA plus some other parts.  Also got some fittings off EBAY including the pressure gauge.

[CaymanXL]

Thank you! I will look into it.

 

[jegall]

Road test today at 75 mph very smooth and when idling tach was dead still at 700 rpm.

[lusgi]

I have an 8.3 mechanical caps pump and mechanical lift pump .

would I benefit from a Fass install ?

[jacwjames]

24 minutes ago, lusgi said:

I have an 8.3 mechanical caps pump and mechanical lift pump .

would I benefit from a Fass install ?

You will get lots of advice, do some research. 

I am a member of the IRV2 forum.  Lots of good info there.  Over the last couple years I've noticed more and more posts on the lift pump failure (leaking) and replacement  and also an increasing number of posts on CAPS failures.  The CAPS failures are likely caused by the lift pump starting to leak while pumping fuel for ~30 seconds and then while the engine is running the leak sucks air.  This is a $6K repair unless you do it yourself and still costs $$$.

I knew of this problem and monitored my lift pump looking at it everytime I crawled under the coach and looking for tell tale signs of a leak >> fuel on the ground.  Not a problem until late last year.  Not leaking one day, took it for a drive and crawled under to do some work and found it leaking. 

Thought about it for a couple months and then decided to install the FASS.  New OEM pump is $400, FASS install is ~$900 +/-.  Pretty simple decision really. 

Do your own research, make your own decisions. 

[lusgi]

I have been researching . it seems all the engines that are being worked on have the electric fuel pump .

that's why I asked the question about a mechanical pump . does it make any difference?

[jegall]

Call Fass they have great support.

[jacwjames]

8 hours ago, lusgi said:

I have been researching . it seems all the engines that are being worked on have the electric fuel pump .

that's why I asked the question about a mechanical pump . does it make any difference?

Your mechanical pump runs while the engine is running and will keep the fuel system pressurized.  My "guess" is that you wouldn't benefit as much from a FASS system but as the previous post suggest you may call FASS.   

[gjh2916]

On 12/14/2021 at 9:47 AM, lusgi said:

I have an 8.3 mechanical caps pump and mechanical lift pump .

would I benefit from a Fass install ?

I have a 01 Dynasty with a 8.3 ISC w/ CAPS injection pump. I installed a FASS fuel pump UP95G Kit from Utra RV products $600. I was the best thing I ever did to my engine. The kit reuses your same fuel filters, you have to get a couple of hoses made but it is a simple installation, took me about 3 hours. I also added a fuel pressure gauge at the dash so I could monitor the fuel pressure. With this kit you leave lift pump installed but disconnect a couple of the fuel lines and remove electrical connector, it reuses the fuel return line to the tank. At idle fuel pressure is 16psi, and it is adjustable at the FASS pump. Engine starts better, much more responsive on the road.

[cbr046]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:50 PM, jacwjames said:

I mounted mine up front near the fuel tank, made the wiring and return hosing easy.  Used the original fuel hose from the FASS to back, I bypassed the original lift pump (put a union to tie the hoses together). 

First step was the fuel pressure gauge (GlowShift).  I tried to mount the gauge in the dash up by the light switch but working in that space is a nightmare.  I ended up mounting it down by my left knee under the dash.  Finding a "lights on" wire wasn't fun. 

Sure enough, the fuel pressure gauge is worthless as, after initial start, the CAPS pump by design sucks fuel from the tank.  That got me to thinking about my slow drip lift pump - if it has a slow drip under pressure it's probably sucking air during operation. 

I like the push-fuel concept of having the FASS pump at the tank vs the suck location by the primary filter.  Was there enough room to mount it on the frame in front of the tank?  How difficult was that (after the side panel was lifted)?  With the LH power bay right there power wire should be (relatively) easy vs routing a wire (crawling around) from battery bay to primary filter location.  On the ignition side of the fuse panel there's an empty slot labeled "Reserved" but needs a little more research.  Sounds perfect. 

How do you secure the fuel tank panel for filter changes?  I'm thinking a latch of some kind (currently riveted at the bottom). 

Some pics (if you can) would be great. 

Oh, and Merry Christmas 🙂

- bob

 

[jacwjames]

Both my panels on either side of the fuel tank can lift up and I can fill from either side.  The propane tank is mounted in the same bay.  Previous owner put in a shelf above the propane tank for storage, which comes in handy and I decide to keep but had to cut out a portion in order to change fuel filters in the FASS system. 

I had some heavy 1  1/2" square tubing that I mounted across toward the front using heavy metal screws, I mounted two pieces of tubing to give a decent support and flat spot for the bracket to mount to. 

I did what you suggest and put the wiring relay in the front drivers side compartment and I was able to get the ignition sense wire.  The harness was long enough to reach the pump.  It was easy to get the fuel feed line from the tank and return line from the pump back to tank.  I used the original fuel supply line to plumb in the FASS pump back to the primary filter.  I bypassed the old lift pump but left it place as it served as a way to get fuel back to tank.    This worked out great.   The FASS pump is easily accessible, I still have room to store stuff. 

Here's a picture.

 

[vanwill52]

Jim, your answers often carry something of a disclaimer like "I'm not really an expert on this", but please remember that TRUE " RV experts" are as rare as four-door Corvettes.  We are a community helping one another, with no axe to grind and no personal agenda.  When one wants to speak to a true "expert", we have Dave Pratt, Chris Throgmartin, Craig French, Myron Truex, Frank McElroy, Tom Cherry, Bob Nodine, Bill Groves (RIP), Paul Whittle, Ernie Eckburg, Rick (waterskier), Z-Mike from iRV2, Chuck B, David 427, and countless others (forgive me if I missed your name).  In the MH world, I think the definition of expert is different from that in the normal business world.

In the normal business world, an "expert" is someone who is engaged in earning a living at the operation in question.  A "professional" photographer is someone who earns a living taking photographs.  There might be "amateurs" who take even more artistically exquisite photos but do it only as a hobby.  Who is actually more "professional"?  An "expert" at Cummins repair might work as a computer programmer but knows his stuff when you are diagnosing an ECM problem.

Hence, Chris Throgmartin is the unquestioned "King" of toppers, awnings and slide repairs.  Ernie Eckberg is the unquestioned "King" of engineered wood flooring.  Those folks have "earned their stripes" and are the "go to" folks in their area of expertise.  they are not going to tell you what they THINK will work...they tell you what their personal EXPERIENCE has taught them.  And my good friend Paul Whittle (aka "shitter Whittle" or "pooper Paul" is the savior of all those orphaned by Dometic with their out-of-date electronic poopers.

And not to diminish the value of those "experts" in any way, but many talented coach owners become "experts" on their own.  An expert is not necessarily someone who has a business and is engaged in selling their expertise at a justifiably high hourly rate.  Sometimes, someone becomes an expert without ever intentionally doing so...and without any intention of selling their knowledge...they just become "experts" at the things they do.  You, Jim, are among that small, elite group that has quietly, humbly demonstrated your expertise and has been willing to share your expertise AT NO COST to other members.  That is the principle upon which Bill D founded this forum.  After reading hundreds of "Internet regurgitations", Bill D (grumpily) said (paraphrased) "If you ain't done it yourself, don't tell us what you read on the Internet.  We can ALL read for ourselves."

Thanks, Jim, for you detailed and documented modifications.

And thank all of you who contribute your PERSONAL experiences in doing ANYTHING.  YOU are why Bill D created this forum.  I benefit from your experience over and over.  Thank you! 

Merry Christmas.  Jesus is the reason...

Van

[jacwjames]

Geeze Van,  I have such a big head now I have to duck to go through a door, and I'm  only ~5'6". 

I do my best to help others, I read most of the posts and only contribute when I think I can add value.   If someone reaches out to me I'll do what I can to help. 

 

Van, you are the same way.  We've exchanged emails multiple times and several phone calls.  Nice to be able to discuss an problem or issue with someone as knowledgeable as you and others on these forums. 

Have a great New Year.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by jacwjames

[ok-rver]

Will be installing a FASS on my Cummins ISC HR Scepter later this week. Spent some time on the phone this evening with jegall (Jim) about his install on his Imperial. He found an ignition switch activated relay within his battery compartment that he was able to use to power the FASS pump. I have one relay hanging loose in the corner of my compartment that as no label. wondering if anyone with a Scepter or similar MH has found an ignition switched source at the rear of the coach?

I did manage to get two 20 ft lengths of 1" sch 40 PVC pipe pushed thru the frame cross member holes from around the front suspension to just forward of the rear end. One for the return hose. The other will have the yellow wire needed to light up the Blue-Sea ACR dash switch. I may also install a fuel pressure sender at my engine with a display at the dash. Worst case is to run an ignition switched wire from the dash back to a new relay in the battery compartment.

[jacwjames]

I would suggest running extra wires for future use.  You've done the hard part running the conduit, might as well take advantage of it.  I pulled 5 extra wires so I still have 4 left.  

I used a Glow Shift fuel pressure gauge, the sold a 40' extension cable that I used GlowShift 40' Extended Length Pressure Gauge Sensor, I had to splice this to get enough length but the splice was right at the fire wall, spliced it to the the short cable that came with gauge itself, also had to buy a threaded plug adapter

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274410976490?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294431230771?hash=item448d780b33:g:76kAAOSwDGxhVu1Y

https://www.ebay.com/itm/291230422814?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

[cbr046]

18 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I would suggest running extra wires for future use.  You've done the hard part running the conduit, might as well take advantage of it. 

I found a conduit with open space along the left rail.  It was difficult finding the open end of the conduit above the rear air tank (HR Endeavor).  I left a pull string in place for future runs.  I bought jacwjames' ebay pieces on Amazon.  1 order, 1 source and direct from manufacturer.  Amazon's GlowShift store had it all.  The 40' cable was just long enough for me.  Just.  Not 2" to spare mounting the gauge under dash. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007GDXK06/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B087SDJFRK/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NWZBB0S/

Driving tomorrow (if this kidney stone passes!) but turning on I get just a few psi fuel pressure, then 15 psi while idling until the lift pump times out, then zero.  Clear indication a FASS system is needed. 

- bob

[gjh2916]

Bob

I also used a Glow Shift Gauge I used shielded stranded 22ga wire between the sending unit and the gauge and everything worked just fine.

[cbr046]

On 12/29/2021 at 9:23 AM, gjh2916 said:

Bob

I also used a Glow Shift Gauge I used shielded stranded 22ga wire between the sending unit and the gauge and everything worked just fine.

In retro-thought I'm thinking I should have used Ethernet cable for the length of conduit.  8 signal wires, 3 for pressure gauge (pwr, gnd, signal) and5 for future use! 

- b

[cbr046]

There's a pretty good write-up from 2019 with details, options, etc on a 2004 Itasca “Horizon” 40AD with Cummins ISC (not sure what chassis) on irv2.  It seems the primary filter was at the back of the coach.  Hence the 36 - 38 ft of return line. 

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/cummins-isc-engine-starts-but-then-quits-and-why-we-upgraded-to-fass-ts-pump-458337.html

Best is a fuel flow diagram that opens the eyes and answers some questions.  Of course in my case it creates more questions!

 

I thought on our coaches fuel ran from the tank->primary filter->lift pump->secondary filter->CAPS ?

This diagram helps me understand why there's a second return line to the tank from FASS.  But what it doesn't answer is how I'm going to fit that 1.5" return line back to the tank.  It's pretty crowded under there.  Also a good argument for mounting at the tank, vs primary filter location (LH side rail behind AC radiator).

The lift pump has a return line also, just before the CAPS.  This is where (I suspect) air is bled back to the tank just before the CAPS.  and the CAPS has a return line.  JEESH!

The fuel filler on the Itasca is different than Monacos. 

One good idea is to mount the fuse near the FASS pump.  This way the pump can be engaged to pre-fill filters after changing.  OTOH now you've got 30 ft of unfused wire (2 inline fuses?).  Or a switch at the pump . . . one that could accidentally get toggled and spend days trying to figure out why the engine won't run LOL. 

It's storming outside and no garage to work in.  And next week it will be COLD COLD.  Maybe I'll buy a lottery ticket . . .

- bob

 

 

[jacwjames]

Where/how did you determine you needed a 1.5" return line.

I just used the same size as the original fuel line but I only needed a short piece running from the original pick up tube in the fuel tank to the FASS pump, I think I had them make it ~10' long so I could pull it off to the side. 

[ok-rver]

Lots of good comments. I am now asking a very specific question, an extension of my post a few days ago. My pump will be mounted on the extension of the rear frame rail on the passenger side, opposite of what jegall posted in his pic about. The FASS wiring harness has been pulled into my battery compartment and is just long enough. I will install a Blue-Sea fuse block to provide power to the pump and a ground buss to bring it back to the engine batteries. There are too many rings attached to the battery terminals and do not want to add more. I do not run any positive wire without a fuse to protect the wire in case a short develops. A hold over from wiring many boats. 

I looked at pulling a wire from the Monaco 1 fuse box ignition on circuit in the forward electrical compartment. All fuses are currently being used. There is an ignition switched relay in the rear battery compartment. I have added a note on the schematic attached identifying it as CUMMINS ECM RELAY. I have good wiring skills and there is not a good way to pull the relay base prongs and attach an additional wire. There is only 6" of wire from the wiring loom to the relay base. I have decided to tap into one of the relay 12v switched wires to feed the relay included in the FASS wiring harness.  insulation will be stripped, wire stands separated, new wire thru separation and twisted around original wire, coated with liquid tape.

 The wire labeled IGN A comes from a 10 amp fuse in Monaco 1 fuse box, labeled 108 KEY SWITCH. This wire to terminal 86 going to the coil of the ECM RELAY. Pulling the Monaco 1 box fuse shuts off the Cummins ECM and lift pump. No power on ACC. A wire comes off the battery positive thru a 7.5 amp fuse (DIAG) and is connected to term 87 on the ECM relay, labeled J1587 BAT (purple). This wire is alway hot, it does  not go thru the engine battery switch. There is 1.5 amps current when the ignition switch in on but engine not running. Connected to terminal 30 of the ECM RELAY is labeled KEY SWITCH (red).  When the ECM RELAY coil is powered by the IGN switch, KEY SWITCH tells the ECM to turn on. Two 30 amp fuses provide operating power to the ECM.

schematic attached shows two tap points. TAP PNT 1 is powered at 12v when the ECM RELAY is pulled in. The FASS relay coil would be powered thru the 7.5 amp fuse(DIAG). TAP PNT 2 has 12v when key is on. The FASS relay coil would get power  thru the Monaco 1 10 amp fuse. Both will energize the FP relay and cause the FP to run. 

FP relay coil pulls less than 0.5 amps. Not a large load on either circuit. If either the 10 amp IGN fuse or the 7.5 amp DIAG fuse blows, the engine will shutdown. If the 7.5 DIAG fuse blows, the IGN circuit would still be powered and instruments plus other stuff off this circuit would run giving some info to the driver. I am planning on tapping in at TAP PNT 1 in the key switch circuit. I am probably over thinking this but looking for yes or no's to where to tap for power.