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Question on Brake Lights / Turn Signals


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Hi All,

I have a 2007 Beaver Marquis.   I'm trying to figure out if this is normal:  when I hit the brakes with the turn signals on or the hazard blinkers, the signals stop and go solid with the brakes.   It does not do this when the Jake kicks in an triggers brake lights.   Is this how it is supposed to be?   I'd think the turn signals still blink when I'm coming to a stop and to make a turn, and/or the hazards would still be blinking when I come to a stop.  Not the end of the world, but bugs me.    

Thanks,

Anand

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Anand, you have something wrong if blinking stops when you apply brakes. Blinker side should continue blinking while braking and other side and 3rd brake light should go solid. 

If lights blink like above with Jake you obviously have a problem with wiring from your brake light switch. Since there are so many ways to wire your brakes and turn signals I can't offer good advice on how to troubleshoot your issue so I suggest you get a good tech.

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The short answer is "No. That's not normal."

While I'm not familiar with that coach the standard way coaches (and all heavy vehicles) are wired is to have separate lights for the brake and turn signals.

This is in contrast to automobiles and light trucks that long ago cheaped out to using a single bulb for both purposes.

This duality poses a problem when you are towing a car as it requires a device to combine the two signals from the coach so they can be fed to the car.

It's likely that said device has developed a fault and it cross connecting the two systems on your coach.

 

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Might chime in on this.  I discovered this same issue on my coach just a few weeks ago while making an emergency stop on the 401 Highway in Canada.  My case was that the four ways only stopped flashing when brakes were applied.  Signals individually work fine while braking.  Haven’t looked into it yet as I’ve been busy bringing other systems up to par.  Will update when I find something.  Following. 

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17 minutes ago, BradHend said:

Might chime in on this.  I discovered this same issue on my coach just a few weeks ago while making an emergency stop on the 401 Highway in Canada.  My case was that the four ways only stopped flashing when brakes were applied.  Signals individually work fine while braking.  Haven’t looked into it yet as I’ve been busy bringing other systems up to par.  Will update when I find something.  Following. 

Mine does the same thing.  I really can’t ever recall driving or maybe driving it’s the breakers on and applying the service brake.  The turn it looks work fine nd do not stop when you apply the service brake.  I have 67K on mine, so, it ain’t exactly a fair weather type, like my C7 Vette…

I’ll do some offline checking…

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1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Mine does the same thing.  I really can’t ever recall driving or maybe driving it’s the breakers on and applying the service brake.  The turn it looks work fine nd do not stop when you apply the service brake.  I have 67K on mine, so, it ain’t exactly a fair weather type, like my C7 Vette…

I’ll do some offline checking…

UPDATE...  Talked to a reliable and knowledgeable EXPERT.  He is about 100% POSITIVE that the Brake Pedal or service brake will "STOP" or cancel the flashers....as that is a constant signal....and not coming from the FLASHER.  As I said, I RARELY run with flashers on....and can't recall ever doing that in the MH. This recent time was where I was testing or using the Allison pad to check the fluid level in the corner of a parking lot and I did not want to park or block me in.  Engine was running.  Parking brake set. Flashers on....and working FINE. After the Allison had tested or cycled and I cleared it, I instinctively pressed the brake and released the parking brake and realized the flashers had stopped.  I turned off the flashers and said...."Gee, that was weird"....and I have never had the turnsignals malfunction...

SO, I think mine and Brad's are working the way that Monaco wired them. I did go through the prints and the Flasher switch is actually an adjunct of the turn signals....and the flasher is way upstream. BUT, there are several control (Bosch) relays and the service brake overrides as well as a diode to prevent backfeeding to the VIP Cruise system.  I don't think there is a gremlin or ghost.

BUT, if the turn signals stop are are intermittent in the normal flash mode....fix it.  The FIRST place to look....find ALL the control relays in the system and then have one good (or borrowed) relay and start to exchange until you locate the defective one or resolve that it is NOT a relay failure...

Good Luck....keep us informed.

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My previous coach, 2002 Windsor, the 4-ways would continue to work and blink when applying the service brakes.

My current coach. 2006 Dynasty, the 4-ways stop blinking when applying the service brakes however the directionals work and blink as they should when applying the service brakes.

I still have to figure out what takes place at the rear of the coach with regards to brake lights when I am using the two-stage engine brake. I just need to have my wife follow me when activating the engine brake someday.

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Posted (edited)

Anand, 

Some (or all) coaches, like mine and it is on a Workhorse chassis, have 2 flasher relays. One for turn signals and one for the emergency flasher. These are typically installed as part of the chassis that Monaco purchased to build the coach on.

I have the same issue on my coach that the emergency flasher will ‘freeze’ when I step on the brakes and this is a safety concern to me. However, changing it is way beyond my pay grade so it will stay as it is. I questioned it with a service center and they said this was a normal but undocumented feature 😁.

The turn signals are not affected when I step on the brakes.

Monaco could have influenced the way the emergency flashers function but I think the chassis manufacturer and the prevailing road safety specs at the time may be more to blame. JMHO

Martin

Edited by Martinvz
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2 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

My previous coach, 2002 Windsor, the 4-ways would continue to work and blink when applying the service brakes.

My current coach. 2006 Dynasty, the 4-ways stop blinking when applying the service brakes however the directionals work and blink as they should when applying the service brakes.

I still have to figure out what takes place at the rear of the coach with regards to brake lights when I am using the two-stage engine brake. I just need to have my wife follow me when activating the engine brake someday.

Richard, The Cummins engine software can be set to either activate the brake lights or not when the Jake brake is activated.  In most Monaco coaches, the software is set at the factory to turn on the brake lights if the Jake brake is actually activated (you could have the Jake switch on but if you press on the accelerator it will deactivate the Jake and turn off the brake lights.)  Now, if the brake lights don't come on with the Jake brake activated and you want them to, you'll need to find a shop with the Cummins Insite software to make the parameter change. 

There are cases where TOAD braking is activated by the brake lights.  If a previous owner didn't want the toad brakes activated with the Jake brake, they could have turn that feature off in the engine ECM.

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Frank, I appreciate that important information regarding the ECM software capability. Once I figure out exactly what is happening when the engine brake is activated, I can then decide which direction I need to go if it is needed at all. Hopefully it came from the factory like most typical coaches did but just in case some previous owner has monkeyed with the ECM software I know that it can be changed to factory specs.

It's nice to know the flexibility that I have available to me.

Thanks so much!

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Posted (edited)

Thank you all for the thoughts here, sounds like I need to go spend some hours tracing some wires, will start with the brake switch and the flasher circuits, perhaps there is some miswiring at the tail lights or in the trailer connections.  Previous owner had installed a second trailer socket that could be the source of the problem.

Anand

Edited by Exekia
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Anand,

Looking at the image you posted on BAC (Apr 9, 2021), for sure the six-pin connector is not original and I’m pretty sure the seven-pin is also not original, both would be suspect. Your coach probably came with a one piece seven-pin/flat six-pin combo. This would have been mounted in a bracket that was low on the hitch cross bar and very easily damaged.

Also, if the pervious owner installed an electric brake controller, disconnect it. If it has already been removed, trace the wires. It is possible the PO hacked into the brake light circuit looking for a trigger not realizing that your coach came factory pre-wired for a brake controller. The factory brake controller harness contains a brake light trigger wire that is not energized when the engine brake engages.

Your comment about seeing a difference between the service brake/Jake brake operation adds to the mystery, it should not matter which one triggers the brake lights. The engine brake triggered brake light should override the hazard operation just like applying the service brakes. In fact, if a person likes to use the hazards when slowly descending a grade, the hazards will go solid when the when the engine brake engages.

Look for circuit board # 8 in the front run box. This PCB contains a 15-amp fuse and relay that triggers the brake lights when the engine brake is engaged. Is there a fuse in the holder?

As a side note, if someone wishes to disable the engine brake activated brake lights and your coach has the newer ‘Christmas Tree’ type front run box (PCB mounted components with the LED indicators), find PCB #8 and pull the 15-amp fuse labeled ENG BRAKE LT.

Are you seeing any other anomalies with the turn signal or brake lights? Do the front turn signal lights function normal?

In your BAC post, you said that all four red brake lights, the high mounted brake light and both rear amber turn signal lights all flash when the hazards are on…this is normal hazard operation for your coach. Which lights are on solid and which ones flash (including the front) when the turn signal is on and you apply the service brakes?

-Scott

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Posted (edited)

Scott, 

As always thank you for the detailed post and for taking the time to give me some direction.   I'm at the coach tomorrow and will test all the things you suggested.   I was aware from the '21 responses that the hazard activity was normal, but didn't notice the turn signal issue until last week for whatever reason.

The coach has an additional brake controller;  It also has the tow different two wiring setups I put in the BAC post.

Yes, the four red in the tail light stacks, the two amber, and the center LED (of which half are burned out and I can't find a replacement of the same size) all flash with the hazards on.   The coach also has aftermarket headlights which I have been meaning to change, but the right light seems like a PITA to remove with the air horns in the way, as it looks like I need to remove the brackets from the inside to get the lights out.   I'll check and see if they blink differently.

Will report back tomorrow.  Thanks again.

Anand

Edited by Exekia
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Anand, it appears that your coach may have been significantly messed around with electrically. it really depends on exactly how it was wired at the factory. Every coach is different.

I say that specifically because the Third Brake Light on the 2002 Windsor I had owned for 18+ years only lit up when the service brakes were applied, not when the hazards were used. Plus, the Windsor only had the front & rear Amber lights flashing when using the 4-way hazards.

I just checked the 2006 Dynasty, and it has been wired to have the front amber lights and all of the rear RED lights including the Third Brake light all flashing when the 4-way hazards are used. This configuration most likely explains why the 4-ways stop blinking when the service brakes are applied.

Regarding the headlights, normally they are removed from the backside, not the front. At least that is the way they are mounted in the Windsor I had. Haven't had the Dynasty that long to have investigated the headlights to see how they are mounted but when looking at them from the outside I would bet there are special brackets on the headlights that are used to install them into the Dynasty. The headlights that are used in the coaches are always from SOB of automobile. The headlights used in the 2002 Windsor are from a 1999-2002 Lincoln Navigator.

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Thanks Richard - 

Something is definitely miswired, but hopefully something simple.  Still trying to make some progress here.  I think my 2007 is similar to your 2006 dynasty.

My headlights are from a 2004 F-150;  I have the replacements, just seem very complicated to get out on the passenger side. 

Anand 

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Not to take over this post by any means. But would anyone know why my 2006 Dynasty brake lights NOT work at all when pedal is pushed but DO work for engine brake? The turn signals and 4-ways work fine. I have checked 2 fuses that I found, a relay in the back panel and both pressure switches up front.

Thank you,

Dave

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