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Inverter Over Charging


63Hotrod
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Our Magnum inverter suddenly is over charging both battery banks. We noticed it while chasing another issues 

Both banks were just shy if 15 volts in float charge mode   So we put the charger on stand by

Now on the remote panel inside it reads 12.9 But with my meter at the battery it reads 14.4. ? 

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Read up on soft start on the Magnum.  There is a debate about power ON air power Off.  As in 50 Amp or Genny on.  You hold in the POWER a button on for maybe 20 seconds and it resets.  Then wait a minute.  Turn it ON…..

Google or find your manual.  Once it is reset and turned back on then check your remote.  Sometimes you have to turn on the inverter and charger from the remote.

I don’t know which meter you are referring to at the battery, your remote will or should be about 0.2 Volts LOWER than what you read directly, WITH A GOOD VOM at the HOUSE BATTERY Bank.  

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It sounds like you have a bad electrical connection between the batteries and the inverter/ charger.  I'd check the battery cutoff switch, and grounds to start.  That voltage drop is tye cause of charging. The charger thinks the batteries are 1.5 Volts lower than they actually are. 

  - Rick N 

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I see you posted on two issues. The other being that the Blue Sea ACR is not working properly.  So the house and chassis batteries aren't connected together.  I'm wondering if the Magnum remote is sensing the chassis battery voltage but charging the house battery banks.  Using a voltmeter, what are the battery voltages on your chassis and house battery banks?

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Yep two issues at once might be connected

This am Chassis 12.9 I have turned the battery switch off

House 13.8

Inside remote 12.8

 

Myron where is the sensor located

I wonder if un pluging the phone cord connection at both ends would help

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we have the same coach I will pull the panel and check. So there would be two phone plugs on the back one going to the inverter the other the sensor, Is there a sensor on the battery

Not much in the manual I could see on the temp sensor

Correction I did find the correct manual in my files and see where the temp plugs into the inverter

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On 11/24/2022 at 11:59 PM, waterskier_1 said:

 

Couple of comments.  there is a “parallel” topic on ACR issues, as Frank pointed out, that might impact the suggestions or recommendations…suggest that it be reviewed.  Had this topic not had so many comments, it might have been merged earlier.

https://www.monacoers.org/topic/5490-blue-sea-acr-remote/

My take on it.  Due to the ACR, the comments or suggestions may be based on a false assumption.  This is NOT a stock, from the factory, Endeavor.

When the Endeavor was new, it had no battery VOLTAGE sensing “external” connection.  If it has/had an AGS, then the AGS was controlled by the voltage displayed on the Magnum Remote.  The Magnum Inverter supplies the voltage to the remote.  MOST of the time the voltage on the remote is 0.18 - 0.20 LESS than the batteries.  There are 3 phone line to the inverter.  There is NO separate or isolated ot dedicated Battery Voltage sensor,  The inverter reads or senses the battery voltage from the two large terminals when the battery is connected.

There are three leads or phone cables,  Battery Temp sensor which is supposed to be on the most rearward house battery….NEGATIVE TERMINAL. Remote line which goes to the Remote and one from the AGS.  The AGS has a temperature sensor directly behind the Thermostat and that goes to the AGS.  The AGS is controlled by the remote.  The remote, when in the “voltage start” mode, signals or triggers the AGS.  SOME enterprising individuals have rewired their systems, but this is the way that Monaco configured it from the factory,

THUS, you expect the remote voltage to be slightly LOWER than the actual measured voltage.  Assuming that there is NOT a Solar connection boosting the voltage, then the issues of the aftermarket ACR MAY be the culprit.

 There are  two ways to start to isolate and eliminate defective components,  the Inverter SOFT start or RESET and the HARD RESET.  These are detailed in the manual and also available online,  The simplest would be to do the SOFT.  No JOY….then the hard.

Past that either resolve or eliminate the ACR isue….and then call Magnum.  Blue Seas has a great tech support line.  Once that issue is resolved, then If the voltages are FUNKY…...  UNPLUG the temp sensor and then do the soft and hard resets.  We have had issues with a few shorted out temp sensors and they drove the Magnum and remote crazy.  Once eliminated, all was well…

Good Luckmand keep us posted….

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Tom thanks for the good info, now I know where the temp sensor is located. Yes I did make two postings as there are two issues . But perhaps they are related as they came up at the same time.

No major changes on the coach except to replace the Tombretta with the Blue Sea. Which has worked now for a couple of years.

For the moment I have turned both batteries off and isolated them on the Blue Sea, turned off the inverter and the power to the coach. Then call Blue Sea Monday then reset etc.

The coach had been in a repair shop and when first thing noticed I picked it up they had shut the inverter off and used the salesman switch (which we never use). So we turned all that back on and drove home. The first thing noticed a few days later was a that neither LED on the Blue Sea remote were not lit and there was no action when the switch was pressed. I checked to be sure the switch was in the right position on the Blue Sea unit. I checked both battery banks and the battery's were over 15 v which seemed higher than normal. Double checked with two meters got the same reading. I also saw just a bit of liquid around the caps on one house battery. In side the meter read 12.4 float so the difference waved a red flag .

Is the 15 v is normal I never checked it before at the battery level. I think a reset could be a good idea. I have the manual and the info from this posting.

 

Thanks to Everyone I will post what I find

 

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According to my manual for my Trace the Equalization voltage will be 15.4 volts.  I only did that once, my batteries boiled a lot.  After recommendations from other members I never did it again. 

I since installed the PowerPulse unit.

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15 Volts at the battery (unless in Equalize Mode) is NOT normal.   It indicates there is a charging source connected and charging at to high of a voltage, or you have a defective voltmeter.  For troubleshooting, you must use the same meter for all measurements.  The inexpensive meters are NOT calibrated.  I've seen some a couple Volts different.  

My recommendation is to disconnect everything from the batteries (solar, inverter, battery charger and all loads) AND the ACR,then measure tye battery voltage.  You don't state what type of batteries you have, but I'm going to guess Lead Acid (either FLA or AGM) since if you had LiFePO4, the internal BMS should have disconnected the cells, if not, the battery is destroyed.  So, a fully charged lead acid battery should be over 12,5 Volts, but less than 13.0 Volts (typically 12.6 - 12.8 Volts). 

If this is true, the next step I'd to connect only the inverter/ charger (no solar,  ACR or any loads). Now what does the battery voltage read?  It should be above 13.3 but less than 14.7 (typically around 13.6 -13.8 for float and 14 2 - 14,4 for absorption). If this appears good, monitor it, until it complete float and the charge current drops below 5 Amps. The batteries should be below 14.0 Volts. 

If this is good, try connecting the ACR without remote sense. The house battery voltage should remain somewhat stable, but, depending on configuration, the starting battery may begin charging. 

There are most step you might take, but strain with tye above, jubilee an abnormality is found, is a logical troubleshooting approach. 

  - Rick N 

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Good information.

When I got done replacing my battery drawer slides and installed the batteries I monitored the charging via the Victron BMV712 I had installed.  My batteries still showed ~12.6 volts when I put them in but for some reason the charger went into the absorption mode.  But the batteries started to boil a lot, I kept monitoring waiting for it to drop to float but it didn't so I shut the power off going to the coach after a couple hours..  The next day when I plugged it back in the charger went to float.  Not sure what happened.  I did have the batteries sitting on 2X10 pieces of wood sitting on the floor, maybe the temp sensor sensed the cold temp and decided to go to a higher charge. 

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21 hours ago, 63Hotrod said:

Tom thanks for the good info, now I know where the temp sensor is located. Yes I did make two postings as there are two issues . But perhaps they are related as they came up at the same time.

No major changes on the coach except to replace the Tombretta with the Blue Sea. Which has worked now for a couple of years.

For the moment I have turned both batteries off and isolated them on the Blue Sea, turned off the inverter and the power to the coach. Then call Blue Sea Monday then reset etc.

The coach had been in a repair shop and when first thing noticed I picked it up they had shut the inverter off and used the salesman switch (which we never use). So we turned all that back on and drove home. The first thing noticed a few days later was a that neither LED on the Blue Sea remote were not lit and there was no action when the switch was pressed. I checked to be sure the switch was in the right position on the Blue Sea unit. I checked both battery banks and the battery's were over 15 v which seemed higher than normal. Double checked with two meters got the same reading. I also saw just a bit of liquid around the caps on one house battery. In side the meter read 12.4 float so the difference waved a red flag .

Is the 15 v is normal I never checked it before at the battery level. I think a reset could be a good idea. I have the manual and the info from this posting.

 

Thanks to Everyone I will post what I find

 

Pure speculation, but the unless you have a solar unit and it is ramped up or unless your alternator was pumping out excess volts, then the Inverter has to be the source of the overcharging.  NOW, following your posts, unless someone did something crazy, you do NOT have any “external” sensor for the Magnum.  If there was NO solar in the system and the engine was not running, and you had a good meter and read the high voltage, 14.9, it is logical to believe that the Magnum is pumping out excess voltage and the Inverter is “probably” in a funk.  I talked to Frank about this.  So my thoughts are still the same….

UNLESS you have a solar controller that is bad, the Magnum has to be the charging source.  Cover the solar panel and/or disconnect one lead of the panel from the controller.  Then CHECK.  High Volage…..then use a battery jumper cable between the positives on the two banks.  That “ties” the banks together.  That eliminates the BS ACR.  High voltage…..Unplug the Battery Temp phone line connector.  I WOULD probably turn OFF…wait a minute…and then turn ON the inverter between each of the above experiments.  ODDS ARE….it will not make any difference, but you have eliminated each item….OK…now try to FIX IT.

I WOULD leave the Solar disconnected.  I would probably DISCONNECT the House bank from the BS ACR.  That way, you have a system that matches the print….see attached.  The Trombetta was a BOOST system and not designed for Two Way or BIRD charging….

I will throw in ONE practical hands on solution……you have a BAD REMOTE.  I had one and it drove my inverter crazy.  Magnum had me run a BUNCH of Diagnostics….  The first one is simple.  Go into the TECH button and keep scrolling through the options.  The last one is “Load Defaults”.  If that screen doesn’t respond or do a countdown, then the remote is the issue…..

SO….this is the MAGNUM a solution.  UNPLUG the remote from the inverter.  Leave everything like I said.  PLAIN JANE exactly like Magnum said to do it….

NOW…do the soft restart. Frank and I were of the opinion that you SHOULD leave AC POWER ON during the Soft Reset….but Magnum says have  Pause maybe 5 minutes BEFORE you manually (at the inverter) power it back on.  Leave POWER OFF and try this.

The Magnum has a “built in” set of defaults.  It WILL work with NO REMOTE….and yours will be just fine.  Wait at least 5 minutes before turning BACk on the Magnum….at the inverter, of course.

NOW, assuming the batteries are fully charged, check the voltage on the batteries.   NOW, plug into shore or start the Genny.  Read the battery voltage.  You should be in the 14.X or somewhere near normal range.  It MAY be lower and in the 13.0 range if fully charged .  Leave it there.  Do NOT plug back in the remote.  Let it sit for a while to stabilize.  If the voltage is normal, then then ONE of two things has happened….

There WAS an issue in the inverter and you cleared it.  OR and TRICKIER!!…..  YOU HAVE A BAD REMOTE…..more on that later.

But if the voltage is STILL HIGH, then the issue in internal.  NOW follow the instructions for a HARD RESET.  BUT, where the manual or instructions say 5 MINUTES….make it an HOUR.  This is straight from a Magnum tech and this has “fixed” two magnums about the same age as yours.

IF you still have high voltage, you have an INVERTER issue.  Gonna need a new board, which many have put in.  BUT if you have to pay a repair service, then Magnum says it is MORE cost effective, if you can swap out the inverter…..but do NOT want to tear into it, to buy a new one.

OK….REAL SITUATION.  My remote went south.  It would NOT hold a setup…..SO….if the inverter is NOW, after either reset, working FINE…..next is to plug back in the remote.  NOW….does everything look OK?  If so, then go through the set up.  Read the manual.  First thing is SHORE and set that to 30.  That is the breaker in the MH.

the SETUP is pretty clear.  Here are the parameters….

Search Watts is disabled.

Low Battery cutoff should be around 11.8 VDC.  The remote reads a lower voltage.  Under load, 11.8 will be 12.0 or 50% SOC on the batteries.

LOW AC….set to the highest voltage….100 VAC.

Your bank is FLOODED.  450/500 AMP Hrs.

I think that is all, other than setting the clock and I can’t remember the older features as the newer remotes have more.

MY ISSUE.  I could NOT set the items up….or if I turned on and off the inverter or removed power, the remote would be totally wacky.  The remote was defective and kept telling the inverter that I had a 1000 A bank…..and I could NOT complete the rest.  On the tech side, the defaults would not load or count down.

Based on what you post…..and the age…..I think a BAD REMOTE is a distinct possibility.  BUT, you HAVE to do the above to get it plain Jane and let the inverter’s defaults be loaded on the  resets to isolate the problem 

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Tom thanks for the clear road map which I will run in the am. One thing to comment on is on this model the Tombretta connected both batteries any time there was shore power. Some sort of circuit board in the front run box that I never could get clear info on. It got really hot to touch and is one reason we went to the BS ARC.

I will come back with what I find on Monday

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28 minutes ago, 63Hotrod said:

Tom thanks for the clear road map which I will run in the am. One thing to comment on is on this model the Tombretta connected both batteries any time there was shore power. Some sort of circuit board in the front run box that I never could get clear info on. It got really hot to touch and is one reason we went to the BS ARC.

I will come back with what I find on Monday

again....my LIMITED knowledge.  I could not figure out, from your post, if you STILL DO do NOT see have the Lambert. It would NOT  would kick up the voltage.  It is a THEIF and not a charger.  NOW, I ASSUME that you pulled out and discarded the Lambert.  The BS ACR is a true and easy to use BIRD system...Thus NO LAMBERT is needed.  

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990170140.pdf

The Lambert siphoned off "current" from the House Bank (which was assumed to be CHARGING whilst in storage).  Many folks actually put small chargers on the Chassis and then charged them when in storage.  Sort of like a mini Low CURRENT (typically 2 - 3 amps) that maintained....but would NOT OVERCHArGE the Chassis.

SO....assuming that is gone....and, for my understanding, eliminated a LOT of issues as we have had more folks with issues from the Battery Thief's like the Lambert....then I would only tell you that you have a good system, assuming it was installed correctly (see the above) and was working fine.  The issue probably started when the batteries went down or the Low Battery Cutout caused it to SHUT DOWN and you will have a FAULT.  Some of these faults are pesky little critters and you have to go to drastic measures to chase them away.

AND....I would NOT bet the farm....but YOUR symptoms were similar to mine....when the remote went south.  Follow the plan.  The inverter is pretty tough....and hopefully will work WITHOUT the remote and respond and be tested (voltage measurement).  THEN if it is OK, the Remote is the next step.  Don't think I am psychic....I put a LOT of work and effort and spent a LOT of time understanding the Magnum....and talked to the Techs....and after I kept losing the setup and it was bouncing around....I bought a new remote.  NOW...if your REMOTE is bad, call Magnum.  You can read the Model (inverter) and the Firmware Rev Code from the Remote's Tech setting.  That will tell them WHICH remote you need.  I think the current one is backwards compatible.  I know that there are certain features in the remote manual do NOT display on my Remote as my 2009 Inverter will not support all the whoopedoo new settings....but it works fine....

 

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5 minutes ago, 63Hotrod said:

Tom on the Tombretta what I did was disconnect the wires and tape them up and then fabed new battery cables for the BSARC. Been working couple of years at this point. 

If you have eliminated the Trombetta and have used the BSACR for a long period of time….

If you have removed or disconnected the Lambert 

Then there is only two ways you are getting the continuous high voltage at the battery…

Solar and the controller is “funky”…..so disconnect the solar panel….one wire will do.

Then, the system is back to about as plain vanilla as you can get.  If it is overcharging, your inverter is, probably, a false equalization mode. What caused it…..who knows…..it happens….and a shorted battery temp sensor or a bad remote or a blip or ????.  The only way to get the inverter to shut down and reboot, properly, is the soft reset…..and if that doesn’t work…..the hard reset.  If the inverter without the temp sensor or remote connected is charging normally and you leave it on long enough to get to a “float charge” state, then ODDS ARE….and this has to be taken without a 100% bonafide lifetime guarantee, it should be OK.  But, bear in mind that Magnum says an inverter failure can happen after 5 - 8 years. YES, we have seen them, but folks like me and also folks with older Magnums are still running reliably.  

One FINAL…..early morning thought…..  If the inverter, without temp and remote is working and you measure and get say, 13.4 or so, that is probably correct.  If you leave it and after an hour or so, it might get to full charge and read 12.7.  Once it stabilizes…..THEN, DO THIS.

Disconnect your shore power.  Wait a few minutes.  Then check the battery voltage.  It should be around 12.7 VDC with a minimum or only a parasitic load.  A refrigerator or a TV in standby will start to pull it down.

If you have a 400 watt or so halogen work light or something that has a plate data or less than 500 watts, plug it in.  That will start to drain the batteries….which is good as it exercises them.  Monitor the battery voltage every 15 minutes.  Unplug the load when you get to 12.0  or so.  NOW plug in and let the inverter start to recharge.  You will get above 14.0 for a while….bulk….then it will go to absorb and be in the mid to upper 13’s and finally, after a few hours, back to fully charged or float.

If this works, then you have functionally tested the inverter….

THEN you can plug in the remote and do the setup and then eventually disconnect power and see what it reads and go through a few periods of no shore and then shore,  then check the remote setup. If all is well, continue to monitor. If the setup changes…..you have a bad remote.

yes…..finding and identifying the problem takes time….but you Don’t shotgun $$ aimlessly…

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No solar and generally lives plugged in here when we are not on the road

Funny thing is I think it did this once before where it shifted in to equalize mode on its own. Not sure but what I noticed is that there was some battery acid spilled out of the battery's. We were gone and so I dont know what the remote read

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30 minutes ago, 63Hotrod said:

No solar and generally lives plugged in here when we are not on the road

Funny thing is I think it did this once before where it shifted in to equalize mode on its own. Not sure but what I noticed is that there was some battery acid spilled out of the battery's. We were gone and so I dont know what the remote read

ODDS are MORE pointing to a BAD REMOTE.  Only way to test is to follow the procedure.  You HAVE to isolate the inverter, in the default mode and then test it....as I said.

ONCE you know it is working, then ODDS ARE...PER Magnum....as well as my own experience, the FLAKY remote is sending false or erratic signals.  MINE was getting worse.  Follow up on getting inverter functional without remote and go through the drain and then a few ON & OFF.  The draining of the batteries is not in vain....as that exercises them and keeps them more robust.

BUT....afterwards, if you go through (take pictures if your mind is like mine...or write down), you will see changes that you did NOT make.  That and when I could NOT get all the setup functions to respond...and had to plug and unplug the remote and it still was showing a 1000 or so Amp Hour bank....  I ordered a new one from Amazon.  Did the soft start....and then plugged in the remove and went through the setup....it has been fine...

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Before you start randomly replacing parts, did you perform the voltage checks I mentioned I in my previous post?  You need to ensure that the voltage - as measured with the same meter - is the same (within 0.02 Volts) at the battery and the inverter. 

You now mention you may have had this problem before when the charger inadvertently went into equalize mode.  I recommend inhibiting that mode such that you have to manually initiate it if you ever want to Equalize.  

Are you still seeing 15 Volts at the battery?  At both the chassis and house batteries?  

What specific tests or changes have you done since posting and what are the results? 

Again, you need to perform logical troubleshooting on your specific coach and not assume problems that occurred on other coaches are exactly your problem.  That information should lead you to investigate if it might be your problem, but confirm before randomly replacing components. 

You mentioned you found this problem while "chasing other issues". What were those other issues and have you sorted them out, or could they be related? 

  - Rick N 

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After being power down for 2 days and isolating the batterys they were House 12.97 and Chassis 13.06. Turned the charger on at the meter it went to 15.1 68 A the amps slowly dropped to 21 in 45 minutes But still 15.1  But at the battery we started to see 15.5

Ok did a soft reset no change, unplugged the temp sensor + soft reset no change, unplugged the remote no change, plugged back in ran the Tec option No change

So did a hard reset No change  I am thinking it must be something in the inverter which is beyond what I am comfortable with.

Thanks to Tom for his help and to everyone else for their suggestions

ONE thing Talked to Blue Seas the unit locks it isolates when it sees high voltage, which shuts down the Led on the remote switch. The spec says 16.2 but the Tec felt that above 15.5 it would shut down

 

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57 minutes ago, 63Hotrod said:

After being power down for 2 days and isolating the batterys they were House 12.97 and Chassis 13.06. Turned the charger on at the meter it went to 15.1 68 A the amps slowly dropped to 21 in 45 minutes But still 15.1  But at the battery we started to see 15.5

Ok did a soft reset no change, unplugged the temp sensor + soft reset no change, unplugged the remote no change, plugged back in ran the Tec option No change

So did a hard reset No change  I am thinking it must be something in the inverter which is beyond what I am comfortable with.

Thanks to Tom for his help and to everyone else for their suggestions

ONE thing Talked to Blue Seas the unit locks it isolates when it sees high voltage, which shuts down the Led on the remote switch. The spec says 16.2 but the Tec felt that above 15.5 it would shut down

 

One comment….and a suggestion.

you need to let the inverter run for a while….without the remote plugged in.  So….try this.

temp sensor UNPLUGGED.  Remote unplugged. AGS Unplugged…. NOW….do the SOFT reset.  Check the voltage.   If it is STILL in the 15.X, do the HARD…..then test or measure the voltage.

if you did not unplug the remote or the temp sensor, then you MAY have them as an issue.  By resetting the inverter, it loads up the “resident” defaults.  That is as good as it is gonna get.

NOW….if the voltage is normal, then recharge or let them recharge.   Then run them down and let them recharge.  Then check on it.

if you let the batteries run down and then you can watch the voltage.

otherwise, the remote or temp sensor can be the issue.  That is exactly what Magnum says.

If the voltage is high when there is no remote, temp sensor and no AGS….IT IS THE INVERTER.

you cannot isolate the inverter with those plugged in….

Do THIS….and you will know….

 

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