Belt Line Repair

[jacwjames]

In my case I was drilling into tubular steel which is part of the frame,  No electrical to worry about. 

Some coaches may be aluminum.

[cbr046]

This has been going on for some time, and I have the issue on 3 corners.  This is the worst corner. 

But first I had to remove the vinyl / rubber / whatever strip covering the screws, which was glued!  The Harbor Freight plastic scraper was ineffective.  I had to pry out the vinyl with a metal putty knife (no paint was harmed in the extraction).  

 

Even the screws holding the bay doors are rotting out.

 

Now here's the deal - I'm not keen on riveting the hinges or the beltline back in place (no worries, I have my flame suit on).  In case I decide to go back and remove the pieces, for whatever reason, I'm planning on stainless screws.  I may even upsize them to #10 for the hinges, and certainly more than 3 / hinge!  The current beltline screws (30% of them broke off) lasted 21 years, and they weren't stainless, so that's my approach.  And no, they won't be as strong as rivets but more screws into fresh metal should IMO "do the trick" for the next 21 years. 

 

THIS STUFF IS A PAIN TO REMOVE!  So here's a question:  The strip doesn't snap into place.  What's a good glue or caulk to put the strip back in place that can be removed later?  Would ProFlex allow me to remove the vinyl strip or would it be semi-permanent?

And yes, I will get some ProFlex for the seams.

TIA,

- bob

 

 

 

 

[jacwjames]

Amazing how different the construction was between the Monaco & HR brands.  Mine used a completely different type extrusion to attach belt molding which basically snapped on the the metal strip. 

The Class C that I had used a similar molding as to what you have.  It did not have any type of glue holding the plastic piece in place. 

No reason you can't use SS screws, my only worry might be if they start backing out.  I used the SS rivets, I did not have to worry about every removing, most of the original screws were rusted off due to the water that found it's way into/behind the belt molding. 

[Tom Cherry]

I wonder if that was due to different plants and locations.  I thought (Danger…Will Robinson ) that when it was all in Oregon that all was the same, save the badges and interior….  Over the years the discussions of “skin” or such differences was discussed and our older and wiser folks could tell you all sorts of historical facts from the Monaco rallies and plant tours and discussions….

[cbr046]

1 minute ago, Tom Cherry said:

I wonder if that was due to different plants and locations.  I thought (Danger…Will Robinson ) that when it was all in Oregon that all was the same, save the badges and interior….  Over the years the discussions of “skin” or such differences was discussed and our older and wiser folks could tell you all sorts of historical facts from the Monaco rallies and plant tours and discussions….

Doesn't really matter but . . . . Is there a plant ID somewhere?  It's a 2003 HR Endeavor. 

- b

[throgmartin]

Bob, Et Al:

We use 3M VHB 2 sided tape to reattach the outer cover. Make sure it is 3M and be sure you order the VHB type. To remove the adhesive from the old 2 sided tape we use trade secret - a small wire wheel in the end of a drill. Lay the cover flat on wood ( we use a long 10 ft 2 x 10 ) and go to work. It is messy but 5 times faster then using a scraper and a lot of denatured alcohol.

In regards to people using stainless screws to reattach belt lines my advice is don't. We get a lot of beltline repairs in the shop that were fixed with stainless screws. With the flexing of the coach going down the road, over time, the screws started working lose just enough for the caulking bead on top of the beltline to break lose and water getting into the walls. The 3/16ths 304 stainless rivets will not stretch or work lose. I have never had a belt line failure in over 15 years and I have done 1,000's of feet of beltlines using 304 stainless rivets. 

Always use a drill stop. The area around the belt lines are areas that the factory ran wiring. I know this for a fact as I hit a 120v wire once. There are also a lot of 12v wires running in the radius of the roof line and some drop down near the beltlines.

Due to the number of owners who have called and requested from us a kit, in In August we will be releasing to the market a brand new Talin belt line repair kit that will include everything you need to repair a belt line - rivets, Proflex, drill bits, scrappers, etc. This will help people by preventing them from having to search all over the internet looking for and sourcing parts and materials from multiple sources. Currently people are having to source all of these materials from 3 different sources and some have had problems getting the right sized rivets, scrappers and caulking. Each kit will also include free tech support via e-mail, phone and Facetime if needed. I will make an announcement when the kits are ready to ship.

With over a decade of tackling belt line repairs on Monaco's and reattaching 1000's of feet of belt line ( over 400 ft in the last 60 days ) you learn a lot of tricks and you find what works and what doesn't. On behalf of myself and my staff we would like to take this time to thank all of the RV service centers in the USA who use screws and aluminum rivets to reattach beltlines. You have put a lot of money in our pockets by having to repair your beltline work. Scotty and Ted will never have to revisit their beltline repairs again because they actually listened to my seminars. ( Ted had to keep kicking Scotty to keep him awake of course ).  🙂

 

 

[bgfleck]

Plant ID is part of the VIN. I picked this up either here or on the other site.

 

Copy of VINBreakdown from Monaco Website.xlsxCopy of VINBreakdown from Monaco Website.xlsx

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, throgmartin said:

Bob, Et Al:

We use 3M VHB 2 sided tape to reattach the outer cover. Make sure it is 3M and be sure you order the VHB type. To remove the adhesive from the old 2 sided tape we use trade secret - a small wire wheel in the end of a drill. Lay the cover flat on wood ( we use a long 10 ft 2 x 10 ) and go to work. It is messy but 5 times faster then using a scraper and a lot of denatured alcohol.

In regards to people using stainless screws to reattach belt lines my advice is don't. We get a lot of beltline repairs in the shop that were fixed with stainless screws. With the flexing of the coach going down the road, over time, the screws started working lose just enough for the caulking bead on top of the beltline to break lose and water getting into the walls. The 3/16ths 304 stainless rivets will not stretch or work lose. I have never had a belt line failure in over 15 years and I have done 1,000's of feet of beltlines using 304 stainless rivets. 

Always use a drill stop. The area around the belt lines are areas that the factory ran wiring. I know this for a fact as I hit a 120v wire once. There are also a lot of 12v wires running in the radius of the roof line and some drop down near the beltlines.

Due to the number of owners who have called and requested from us a kit, in In August we will be releasing to the market a brand new Talin belt line repair kit that will include everything you need to repair a belt line - rivets, Proflex, drill bits, scrappers, etc. This will help people by preventing them from having to search all over the internet looking for and sourcing parts and materials from multiple sources. Currently people are having to source all of these materials from 3 different sources and some have had problems getting the right sized rivets, scrappers and caulking. Each kit will also include free tech support via e-mail, phone and Facetime if needed. I will make an announcement when the kits are ready to ship.

With over a decade of tackling belt line repairs on Monaco's and reattaching 1000's of feet of belt line ( over 400 ft in the last 60 days ) you learn a lot of tricks and you find what works and what doesn't. On behalf of myself and my staff we would like to take this time to thank all of the RV service centers in the USA who use screws and aluminum rivets to reattach beltlines. You have put a lot of money in our pockets by having to repair your beltline work. Scotty and Ted will never have to revisit their beltline repairs again because they actually listened to my seminars. ( Ted had to keep kicking Scotty to keep him awake of course ).  🙂

 

 

Thanks for the update, Chris,

FWIW….i pulled, many years ago, some specs from the 3M site.  There are actually 2 different 3M VHB tapes.  I started using the clear one back in 2009 as i had a upper door basket come loose.  I repaired it with the clear…as that was available over the weekend at an office supply store.  When the tech, under warranty, about 4 years later, put on s new gasket, he was in awe of how it “held” or perhaps the extra work to get it off.  

Fast forward a few years. I had the tech that mounted my “brackets” to my Samsung use the black VHB.  Later on, I found specs from 3M and my own curiosity read a little.

The black (automotive emblem double stick….most AutoZones and such carry it) is actually “weaker” than the clear VHB.  It is thicker, so if you have a slightly irregular surface and need the thickness to get a better ‘fit”….that is what it is intended for. 

The clear is thinner and is better for reattaching peeled up gaskets or such.  It is NOT as thin as the original double stick that is used on most replacement or new gaskets.  It was designed and marketed for attaching (permanently) office door name plates or if the name plate is on a clear door, not having 2 black strips showing from the other side.  I prefer it for gaskets as you are closer to the OEM.  I think the clear has about 30% more strength or requires 30% more force to remove it,  The typical test is a spin off from the old “spot weld” testing ASTM protocol.  It is the 180 deg peel back.  3 M details this in their specs.

As a matter of info, for salvaging gaskets, which is way different, I suspect, from beltline repairs…. I get the best result from using WD 40 to break down the old adhesive and use a plastic scrapper or my finger nails or a tuffy dish washing “sponge”.  Then i wash with soap or maybe window cleaner and rinse….finally….FORGIVE ME COLONEL DUCKWIYZ…I use acetone sparingly as it activates both surfaces….3M sells a product to spray on a car finish where you are going to apply pin stripping tape and it helps crosslink the tape adhesive with the car’s clearcoat.

All this was to state that the application and requirements dictate which 3M VHB.  I did not realize the difference between the 2 (clear vs black automotive) until i got curious and did some digging….

[Scotty Hutto]

I’m pretty sure Chris @throgmartin waited until mine was done before he started offering kits. 🤔

[throgmartin]

15 hours ago, Scotty Hutto said:

I’m pretty sure Chris @throgmartin waited until mine was done before he started offering kits. 🤔

Don't blame me. Blame Steve Parvin. He told me to wait till you were finished with your project. Goes to show you never trust an MSU Grad, especially a Veterinarian. 🙂

[Tom Cherry]

15 hours ago, Scotty Hutto said:

I’m pretty sure Chris @throgmartin waited until mine was done before he started offering kits. 🤔

You mean he charged you for “learning” how to do them.  I used to employ a lot of environmental consultants. I would review the invoices.  It only took two or three “mark down” with my approval for them to start eating the research.  My position was….I’ll pay for the work, but if you or your staff are not knowledgeable enough for my job and don’t know how to do it, I ain’t gonna pay for your inadequate education….no “research” expenses were paid.  LOL…

Next thing you will tell me is that he is not sending nor intends to…a royalty for using your rig as a “learning”. LOL.  

In all seriousness, Roadmaster (Tow Bar) would solicit a new popular or soon to be….vehicle and use it for prototyping one that fit it.  They gave you the baseplates, installed, and a discount on a bar, if needed….or at least that was what I was told.  Source Engineering used owners and let them drive and evaluate and the other test drivers would drive their rig during the weeks or so developing their proprietary “BILSTEIN” shocks…..and after it was all over, every one got a set, installed, on their motor home.

@Scotty Hutto  You need to complain.  @throgmartin should at least send you a license plate or a frame with “Talin RV Repairs…..” on it.

😂😈😤🤑

[RC2018]

This is a project I intend to tackle soon, thanks to you guys for doing such a great video. It makes so much more sense after seeing it during the process.

[throgmartin]

Tom:

Let me tell you what Scotty and Steve did to me. Deb, Scottys wife, brought scallops to cook for me at a camp out as she knows it is my favorite seafood. She cooked them and Steve ate them all. I never got one. This is typical Mississippi State graduate conduct. After I shamed Steve he felt guilty and offered to neuter my dog for free.

I thought Scotty would have at least gave me recognition in that video since he had to sit through 3 of my seminars on that topic till he understood what I was trying to teach. This is what happens when you fall asleep during a seminar. I never thought I was that boring. lol  🙂

[cbr046]

On 6/25/2023 at 6:16 AM, throgmartin said:

Bob, Et Al:

In regards to people using stainless screws to reattach belt lines my advice is don't.

Always use a drill stop. The area around the belt lines are areas that the factory ran wiring. I know this for a fact as I hit a 120v wire once. There are also a lot of 12v wires running in the radius of the roof line and some drop down near the beltlines.

1.)  Problem I have is the bay door hinges are coming loose due to moisture rotting out the screws.  If, and I say *IF*, I need to mess with those hinges again I don't want to be drilling out stainless rivets.  There's not many stresses on the lower belt line.  I stand behind my stainless screw decision. 

2.)  For whatever reason Monaco used 1.5 inch screws on the hinges and 1" screws for the belt line cover.  The metal frame is less than 1/2" under the skin.  That's a mystery.

OTOH the upper belt line is buckled up over the driver's door.  I definitely WON'T be using screws of any type for that project.  Looking forward the the kit availability. 

- bob

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, throgmartin said:

he had to sit through 3 of my seminars on that topic till he understood what I was trying to teach. This is what happens when you fall asleep during a seminar. I never thought I was that boring. lol  🙂

 3 is not that big of a number,  is it?  It takes me a little longer too.     LOL

1 hour ago, throgmartin said:

After I shamed Steve he felt guilty and offered to neuter my dog for free.

I hear he can do the same for people,  the thought oughtta keep one awake even in a seminar.  One little snip & there ya go.      ROLMAO

[throgmartin]

13 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

 

I hear he can do the same for people,  the thought oughtta keep one awake even in a seminar.  One little snip & there ya go.      ROLMAO

YIKES............ Now that you mentioned that............ Maybe he wasn't referring to my dog and actually meant me 🙂

[Guest Ray Davis]

 

2 hours ago, throgmartin said:

YIKES............ Now that you mentioned that............ Maybe he wasn't referring to my dog and actually meant me 🙂

 

Aw, Chris, it's not that bad anymore.

This is what we use nowadays out on the range.    No blood or anything with the pinchers, it pinches thru the skin.   One snip and you're out of business.   Just a little squalling & bawling.   The patient fusses a little too.  LOL       We used to use a pocket knife and a big swab of ointment,  messy job but quick.    Grab um in the left hand and wack with the right then slather on the ointment.    Ya gotta watch for flies etc. 

Either way, I don't think they like it much.

It's all true, except for the WE,  I never did any of it.

[Steven P]

@throgmartin Ya know!  If you weren't so far away, Ray has a good idea!   Ya don't need nuts when you're using rivets!! 🤔😂 

@Scotty Huttomaybe Chris isn't so far away after all.  Up for a road trip?  You bring the scallops, I got the rest (scalpels) covered.

Btw, I'll be selling t shirts w the above slogan at Talinrv.com soon. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Steven P

[miacasa_2000]

I am ready to tackle this problem on my coach and have a few concerns / questions.  1. I am assuming the beltlines are over the steel box framing hence why rivets are recommended does this include the curved sections?  2.  My beltline is different it's completely over the channel but it still feels like a stiff vinyl any secretes to removing it so no harm is done it is extremely long, and does this type need and or should I use the tape to help with reattachment.  3. And last but not least do you ever pull the channel to caulk behind it or does that open a can of worms that I'll never get back in right. You can see in the pics a screw bulge and the rust coming down my door even though the caulk above the beltline looks good obviously it's not no penetrations above this section.   Thanks in advance.

Roy  Mercier   2003 Dynasty

[jacwjames]

7 minutes ago, miacasa_2000 said:

I am ready to tackle this problem on my coach and have a few concerns / questions.  1. I am assuming the beltlines are over the steel box framing hence why rivets are recommended does this include the curved sections?  2.  My beltline is different it's completely over the channel but it still feels like a stiff vinyl any secretes to removing it so no harm is done it is extremely long, and does this type need and or should I use the tape to help with reattachment.  3. And last but not least do you ever pull the channel to caulk behind it or does that open a can of worms that I'll never get back in right. You can see in the pics a screw bulge and the rust coming down my door even though the caulk above the beltline looks good obviously it's not no penetrations above this section.   Thanks in advance.

Roy  Mercier   2003 Dynasty

When I did mine I first used the heavy scrapers and peel the old caulk off the top and bottom of the belt molding.   I was then able to use a hooked tool to start pulling the bottom portion of the cover off the aluminum extrusion.  I worked slowly and the plastic cover just pulled loose.  I removed enough to drill and install the SS rivets, which was about ~25' length of the rear passenger side molding staring at the top and coming down the rear and across the bottom.   Almost all the screws were rusted off.   Yes, from what I could tell the was structure under the belt molding.  I did buy a pneumatic rivet gun which was a big time saver.  I bought a pack of Jobbers Drill Bits, I broke several.  

FWIW, I had similar staining on the inside of my rear compartment door and ultimately resulted in a large area of delamination starting at the top belt molding and fanning out to the bottom.  Was a big project to fix and I can see where it was but it is solid, I used epoxy to fix.  I redid all of the caulking around the entire coach after fixing the delamination.    

So I'd suggest you start looking for you leak as I'm 100% sure you have one. 

[cbr046]

On mine it looks like the vinyl cover over the channel was glued on with VHB tape like Tom was talking about a few posts up.  The tape was very difficult to remove off the vinyl.  Removing it from the metal channel was a bit easier but still not easy.  It STICKS!

I re-attached mine with a very thin layer of Home Depot caulk but I can't say this is "the ticket".  Then I discovered the cover shrank and wouldn't match up with the end.  Good thing it wasn't VHB tape!  I was able to pull (stretch) the cover to match the previous holding screw hold.  Time will tell on the caulk . . . .

I drilled new holes through the channel if the old screws were rusted (several snapped in half on removal).  Don't forget to caulk any unfilled holes.  Water has it's way . . . .

Odd the screws on right rear were 1" length and under the driver they're 1.5" length.  Not sure I follow that logic.

If you go with rivets Scotty Hutto and crew in the video they used stainless steel 3/16 x 7/8 rivets (Chris / throgmartin approved).  I don't see ever going in and re-doing the work but I wanted that option so I went with SS screws.  Yes, they are difficult to screw in. 

- bob

 

[miacasa_2000]

Jim Yes I know I have leaks I've seen water come in at one spot and not show up for many feet away. That's why I'm doing the whole coach. I have the means to set up and run the whole length of the coach (upper belt) just trying to get my materials and info together I appreciate your info.

Bob  I'll find out how my cover is held on when I start but good info on the shrinking maybe I'll mark mine and perhaps only do about 10' at a time. This is exactly why I am asking for pointers.

Roy Mercier

2003 Dynasty

[cbr046]

23 hours ago, cbr046 said:

Odd the screws on right rear were 1" length and under the driver they're 1.5" length.  Not sure I follow that logic.

 

Cover channel fasteners on the left front belt line under the driver go into wood, which has rotted on our coach 😞 UNFORTUNATELY bay door screws were rusted through and when I opened the bay door it fell off!  😮  Fortunately the bay door hinges screw into steel framing.  All fixed now, but Chris won't like what I did about the rotten wood.  Heck, I don't even like what I did!    

- bob

[TedZimmer]

@miacasa_2000 @Scotty Hutto Scotty and I finished up his beltline yesterday. It is definitely a time consuming task. Here are a few recommendations, hope this helps.

-Make sure to use some kind of scaffolding. We used a scaffolding by metaltech, model number: i-ciscas. Dimensions are 29 inches by 73 inches and holds up to 1000 lbs. I am going to get two for when I do my beltline. If you google the scaffolding, it is on sale at northern tool right now for 199.99. You can get 5.00 off for entering your email address AND if you use rakuten, get 3.5% cash back. NOTE: when climbing up the side to get on the scaffolding, it is a little wobbly, however, when you are standing on the platform, it is nice and stable. 

-Definitely work in small sections, we did 6 foot sections at a time. This made it very manageable AND you wont have to worry about stretching.

-As @throgmartin mentioned and recommends, use the stainless steel rivets AND proflex RV caulk.

-When you pull away the vinyl cover that goes over the beltline, MAKE SURE to clean / scrape off ALL old caulk. This is the most time consuming / tedious part of the process. We used plastic scrapers, a knife, solvents to loosen the old caulk, etc. When using the knife, be VERY careful NOT to cut into the vinyl beltline cover OR the paint on your coach, take your time.

-After you get all the old caulk off, make sure to wipe down all surfaces with denatured alcohol prior to putting the new proflex back on.

-When installing the new stainless steel rivets, FIRST drill holes in between the existing screws, THEN install the new stainless steel rivets, THEN remove the old screws, THEN proflex over screw holes and rivets, THEN put vinyl beltline cover back over beltline.

-When applying the new proflex, wear rubber gloves as proflex is hard to get off, you can also put mineral spirits on your finger to smooth out your proflex if your bead wasnt applied the way you like it.

Hope this helps. These are some recommendations that stood out in my mind from yesterday. I will probably have a new video shortly from yesterday that will give you a visual of what was done.

 

[miacasa_2000]

Bob I thought there would be some areas of just plywood especially around the curves.

 Ted Thanks I plan do just what you said and where there is already silicone also using some acetone as per Chris. I still have all my scaffolding and double sided A ladders and aluminum picks from being in construction. Heck I probably could go all the way around the coach if I was so inclined.

Roy Mercier

2003 Dynasty