Source Engineering/JB Radiator

[tmw188]

Anyone with any radiator purchase experience from Source Engineering? 
JB Radiator Specialties

Edited June 21, 2023 by tmw188

[vito.a]

Try these guys:

They have a reputation for making excellent radiators for Monaco/HR products and occasionally have some in stock:
https://cgj.com/product-category/radiators/motorhome-and-bus-radiators/monaco-radiator

CAC: https://cgj.com/product-category/radiators/motorhome-and-bus-radiators/monaco-radiator

Or: monaco - Radiator Supply House

[Chargerman]

I purchased my radiator from radiator supply house. They were quite a bit cheaper than Source. They first sent me the drawing to I could confirm dims then they built and had the new radiator on its way to my in two weeks. The workmanship and customer service were top notch. Though in hindsight I wish I would have tracked down a recorer to discuss it with as that route would have been ALOT less. 

[tmw188]

CGJ is a definite no thanks. Source Eng claims their builder JB Radiator Specialties was the OE builder for Monaco and many other RV. Radiator Supply House maybe thanks for the info.

[jacwjames]

Back in 2015 road debris took out my radiator, luckily my insurance covered it but the adjuster was relentless as to the cost.  At the time a radiator from radiator house was ~$5K (from memory).  CG&J came in at $2650 delivered and I agreed to buy and have it installed.  Total cost of the repair was +$7K less deductible.

Unfortunately the CG&J radiator hasn't lived up to my expectations.  I remember our first long trip after it was installed I had high tranny temps, which at the time I blamed on myself, we were climbing a relatively long grade in a high gear, so I put it in lower gear to increase rpm's and the temps went down.  Life got in the way and on my next long trip in 2021 I saw high temps a lot.  Once stuck in traffic tranny temps climbed to 238F. 

Then when I got back and parked in the garage the next day I found the radiator seeping, so I put in two bottles of Iron Tite,, not the optimal  thing to do but it solved the problem. 

Then more trips and more higher tranny temps, I contacted CG&J and the person I dealt with could not tell me how they sized the tranny cooler. 

So long story short I decided to install an auxillary cooler in series to the in tank cooler.  It seems to have solved the problem.  Drove 650 miles, E TN to Southern WI, had some good grades in TN & KY plus stuck in traffic several times.  Tranny temps never exceeded  engine temps, highest I remember was 178F but it cooled right back down usually at ~165F.  When I was stuck in traffic the temps actually went down. 

So I wouldn't recommend CG&J based on my experience, your mileage may vary.

Edited June 22, 2023 by jacwjames

[Rikadoo]

Yes i can, I believe his name is Jim at the Source. I bought one from them and am tottaly satisfied, great team to by from. Not only did they sell me my radiator, but they gave me a fan for my rig free cause my old one had a piece missing. When calling them it will be important to provide them with the info on a sticker that tells the builder which one you need. They originally said it was on the radiator, however on mine it was located on the fan shroud

[tmw188]

Yep Jim, I talked to him this morning and it obvious they know what their doing. Thanks for the input.

[Tom Cherry]

47 minutes ago, tmw188 said:

Yep Jim, I talked to him this morning and it obvious they know what their doing. Thanks for the input.

Jim Walls.  He and I had a lot of conversations when I reshocked my Camelot and added their sway bars…..he was involved in warranties with Monaco,  Scott Zimmer was the Engineering guy.  Again, we also talked a lot.  They both filled in details of the decision to execute and cremate the Roadmaster chassis by REV.  I knew the drill and why there was a covey of bean counters and outside auditors watching and actually being the lead and rear in the convoy to the crusher.  It was a mega writeoff and would be audited by the IRS…so they wanted it done properly.  The finance guys made to call to not even sell the WIP or Components that were on the floor.

Both gave me their cells as well.  Great guys…

[birdshill123]

Tom. When did they destroy the Roadmaster chassis?  And why? Rev never got involved until Navistar gave up. Navistar paid nada for Roadmaster. The judge had agreed onthe pittance that  Navistar paid for Monaco. But rhen Navistar realized that Roadmaster was not included. They did not want to buy it as they coukd be liable for warranty claims. The judge just added the assets to the Monaco "purchase" at no additional cost. The above is my old man's recall of that horrible event.

Edited June 22, 2023 by birdshill123

[Guest Ray Davis]

Tom will probably be along directly.  Until then, I think I recall it was REV that destroyed everything Roadmaster.   

I believe Monaco had an excellent product but made terrible business decisions.   They way overextended their credit assuming the good times would roll on forever.

They couldn't pay the warranty claims, and dealers grew to hate them, resulting in the Monaco brand being more or less destroyed.

It was not their money it was corporate money.  The privately owned companies survived there is a different mindset when the company is yours

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, birdshill123 said:

Tom. When did they destroy the Roadmaster chassis?  And why? Rev never got involved until Navistar gave up. Navistar paid nada for Roadmaster. The judge had agreed onthe pittance that  Navistar paid for Monaco. But rhen Navistar realized that Roadmaster was not included. They did not want to buy it as they coukd be liable for warranty claims. The judge just added the assets to the Monaco "purchase" at no additional cost. The above is my old man's recall of that horrible event.

My recall was different.  Navistar had the whole thing as the receiver when Monaco went bankrupt sold it.  That absolved Monaco or all prior liabilities, however, the dealers sued or some did and got back a fraction of their warranty claims.  First hand knowledge of this snd others that had dealer connections confirmed.

Navistar wanted to be the MH engine big boss.  They did not have their act together and it was a bust.  BTW.  Navistar paid something like $40 Million for Monaco. They ended up spending some to maintain a dealer network.  But they got a government grant for a super clean delivery truck (FedEx?) so they were really snot spending much for Monaco.  When their super engine and aspirations turned sour…land the EPA fined them $10K for every engine they had sold or installed and times got tight and no follow up orders….they cut their losses.

REV bought Monaco for just the NAME(s).  I closed over 35 factories during my career as the Project Manager for acquisition and relocations.  The big boys made the decisions…l and my boss and later me and a small team surveyed the companies.  We also played “what if” with our own core plants (30). I was the Kiss of the Devil if I started asking questions or drop in unannounced snd wander around.  We made decisions based on market share and acquisition of other similar name brands.  It is a cut throat process.  Just to stay busy, since I was responsible for facilities and process and environmental, I was the Shell Answer Man for estimating the costs and environmental expenses of closing and moving and I often had to help rearrange our factories to bring is selected equipment and then sell or scrap what was left in a recent acquisition and then clean it up for sale and work with our corporate folks to get rid of it.

So…I was told by a lot of Ex Monaco folks and some others close to the industry….REV never intended to manufacture the Roadmaster Chassis….or maybe they tried, as we did, to undo the mismanagement of Navistar and then decided NOPE.  Market and demand and such always comes into play.  Finally….sell the plants.  They could write off a major portion of the assets by killing the Roadmaster chassis line.  Every piece of equipment and jigs and fixtures and cutoff saws and such were identified by asset number and the remaining depreciation.  Then the beancounters took over.  All collected or tagged (spray painted).  Then photo documentation and finally…..rolloffs with ….an exact list of contents.  All then trucked to a recycler and crushed.  Then it was written off….and the process was supervised also by the independent external auditors and they blessed the annual report….no messy footnotes.  REV got the names, save the Roadmaster Chassis “assets”.  They probably kept the intellectual property and the name should they ever want to come out with a new chassis or determine the need.

That’s the way it went down.  Many Ex Monaco folks were still around and helped identify and segregate….and saw their heart and soul that went into making the Roadmaster chassis what it was….be scrapped…

I will not name names or such, but the pieces, as you talked to folks, started to fit….and i knew the drill…..as I did it many times.  One time, we were prepared to close a factory.  It had a really special “line”.  It was on the books for a $500K writeoff.  That was in the project and we went forward.  On a whim, I started to market it.  I found an offshore buyer that would remove it and pay us $750K.  That was a $1,250,000 swing…. I was rewarded and we had a better year and then was in control of most shutdowns from a manufacturing and disposal standpoint.  Lucky….LUCKY…I knew some folks who gave me leads and then hired the right “used equipment dealer”.  He made a mint…he got a smidge over a Million….and made $250K and only had 3 or 4 trips to the site.  It surprised BOTH of us.  I literally made HIS year as he was almost a one man show….  THAT is how it works….

[birdshill123]

Tom. You know more about some of the facts than I,but  I distinctly remember reading about Navistar going to the judge re Roadmaster. I was enraged at the time. The whole receivership was a sham. That judge was horrible. I may be old but what I read made sense. I will not post anymore on this subject as I get upset.I appreciate your comments.

[Tom Cherry]

13 hours ago, birdshill123 said:

Tom. You know more about some of the facts than I,but  I distinctly remember reading about Navistar going to the judge re Roadmaster. I was enraged at the time. The whole receivership was a sham. That judge was horrible. I may be old but what I read made sense. I will not post anymore on this subject as I get upset.I appreciate your comments.

I don’t doubt that there were a lot of “discussions and motions and such”….typical.  Bottom line, assuming it doesn’t stress you, i did a lot of googling last night.  The Wiki on Monaco Coach and Navistar confirmed what i was told and remember.  In the final chapter, Navistar paid a mere $47 Million for ALL of Monaco (that included all names that they had and all models of “RV” products….including Roadmaster.).  I don’t know if Monaco every registered Roadmaster as a trade or copyrighted name….but as far as the MH owners knew….Roadmaster was a CHASSIS and not a tow bar…..

Interestingly enough…I had to relive a past life.  Navistar could have been a Harvard Business Review of stupidity and how to destroy a company….they made the Monaco guys they hired….look smart.  

Carl Ichan killed or almost killed Navistar and forced them to sell Monaco….  i worked for a NYSE that he pulled the same stunt on.

FWIW, the “overall” story I was told was how i posted it.  The Monaco and ex Monaco folks did not fully understand the financial and write off and IRS regs that were in play…but that is how it happened and why…..

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

26 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

I don’t know if Monaco every registered Roadmaster as a trade or copyrighted name….but as far as the MH owners knew….Roadmaster was a CHASSIS and not a tow bar…..

When I was a lad my dad drove a Buick Roadmaster,  it was a very long time ago. ( 1950s ) No telling how many things have used that name.   Actually, Buick's use of the name goes way back so if it could be registered I would think GM would have registered the name.   Anyway, tax advantages etc aside it seems a shame that they threw it away like so much trash.  If Monaco had refined the chassis further (  Hired Van  Williams )  LOL  who knows it might still be around.

[birdshill123]

Here is some more info on Roadmaster.

K, here is more information from Lazydaz and other dealers here at Perry, GA, along with some things I've researched on the Net....

The "potential" Navistar International bid for Monaco is indeed a rumor at this point, as nothing has been announced. However there is some substantiation to the rumor. I hope that it happens as Navistar International is a very good company, from my experience. They do an honest job of customer support and have an excellent reputation in the trucking industry. While truck sales have dropped, along with everything else, Navistar does not seem to be in serious trouble and does have several hundred million dollars in cash reserves.

Some background information....

In 1985 International Harvester was in serious trouble for numerous reasons not important to this discussion. As a result, however, they did sell off the largest portion of their business, the Agricultural Division, which left them with the truck and engine divisions only. The next year, they changed their name to "Navistar International Corp." They remain a leading truck and engine manufacturer today.

Within the last 5 years Navistar has been moving closer to ties with the RV industry - especially Monaco. In June of 2003, Daniel Ustian, the President and CEO of Navistar was appointed to the Monaco Board of Directors. In the summer of 2005, Navistar purchased Workhorse, a leading manufacturer of RV chassis. In January of 2007 Navistar and Monaco signed an agreement to join forces with respect to chassis manufacturing. A new company was formed, called "Custom Chassis Products, LLC" which is the company that now manufactures Roadmaster chassis. Navistar owns 51% with Monaco owing the other 49%

Custom Chassis Products (Roadmaster) was NOT part of the Chapter 11 filing that Monaco filed the first week in March. That action effected only Monaco wholly owned divisions.

Navistar executives have accompanied executives from Monaco at the Monaco pre-rally in Georgia last week, and the FMCA rally in Perry this week. I was not at the pre-rally so I don't know more details about that, perhaps someone who was can add some details here.

So, is Navistar going to buy Monaco? They certainly are in a good position to do that, and "some" large Monaco dealers are hopeful that an announcement to that effect will be made very soon. But as of this posting, it is indeed, officially still a rumor.

__________________

[Tom Cherry]

14 minutes ago, birdshill123 said:

Here is some more info on Roadmaster.

K, here is more information from Lazydaz and other dealers here at Perry, GA, along with some things I've researched on the Net....

The "potential" Navistar International bid for Monaco is indeed a rumor at this point, as nothing has been announced. However there is some substantiation to the rumor. I hope that it happens as Navistar International is a very good company, from my experience. They do an honest job of customer support and have an excellent reputation in the trucking industry. While truck sales have dropped, along with everything else, Navistar does not seem to be in serious trouble and does have several hundred million dollars in cash reserves.

Some background information....

In 1985 International Harvester was in serious trouble for numerous reasons not important to this discussion. As a result, however, they did sell off the largest portion of their business, the Agricultural Division, which left them with the truck and engine divisions only. The next year, they changed their name to "Navistar International Corp." They remain a leading truck and engine manufacturer today.

Within the last 5 years Navistar has been moving closer to ties with the RV industry - especially Monaco. In June of 2003, Daniel Ustian, the President and CEO of Navistar was appointed to the Monaco Board of Directors. In the summer of 2005, Navistar purchased Workhorse, a leading manufacturer of RV chassis. In January of 2007 Navistar and Monaco signed an agreement to join forces with respect to chassis manufacturing. A new company was formed, called "Custom Chassis Products, LLC" which is the company that now manufactures Roadmaster chassis. Navistar owns 51% with Monaco owing the other 49%

Custom Chassis Products (Roadmaster) was NOT part of the Chapter 11 filing that Monaco filed the first week in March. That action effected only Monaco wholly owned divisions.

Navistar executives have accompanied executives from Monaco at the Monaco pre-rally in Georgia last week, and the FMCA rally in Perry this week. I was not at the pre-rally so I don't know more details about that, perhaps someone who was can add some details here.

So, is Navistar going to buy Monaco? They certainly are in a good position to do that, and "some" large Monaco dealers are hopeful that an announcement to that effect will be made very soon. But as of this posting, it is indeed, officially still a rumor.

__________________

Good information.  All I know was what i read and what I was told when it happened.  Many folks wanted to buy components such as bushings.  There were offers, but no sale.  I assume from the timing that this was the rigging and packing up all usable equipment that could be retrofitted to REV’s operations.  However, the Roadmaster chassis tooling, fabricating, welding jigs and anything specifically and only used on the chassis were cordoned off and the asset tags were matched and there were financial people, presumably from Monaco/Navistar to ensure the asset or property tags and the “property/asset” print outs were matched.  There were many NEW axles from TRW that were set aside….still strapped to pallets,  REV was negotiating or attempting to negotiate a discounted buy back.  NW RV was on site as they bought just about everything else…but NOT any components or purchased items from suppliers.  Bottom line….the Roadmaster fabrication assets and all WIP chassis, less the TRW “in limbo” axles were secured.  Loaded into large rolloffs and a cadry of accounting folks followed and there was photo documentation of destruction (crushing).  Thus, REV totally wrote off all the “fabrication or manufacturing equipment”.  The next comment is a guess….there may or was some additional “good will” deductions for the “marketing value” or sales value of the Roadmaster Chassis.

That’ how it played out and there were a lot of former employees as well as designers and such that were very upset and disappointed….as they had an emotional attachment.  It happens.  My former boss actually ordered and designed the manufacturing line that I later sold.  He balked at closing the two plants and left the company.  He refused to shut down a plant that had so much of his heart and soul in it.  He later bought a pet store to keep his daughters working while in college….but his hefty daily consulting fee provided more income than before.  I later told him that i sold the line and where it went and he was pleased that I had not brought in a crew with torches….

That’s all I know….