Residential RF18 into Camelot 42PDQ Inverter Circuit Location

[CapnDean]

I am installing a Samsung RF18 into my 2008 Camelot 42PDQ.  Does anyone on here know offhand where I can find the nearest inverter circuit?   I am sure that the outlet that is behind the existing fridge is NOT an inverter powered one.   I need to power it from the inverter when I am traveling.   FWIW  I did this very same upgrade on my 2002 fleetwood discovery and the modified sine wave 2000 watt inverter would carry the fridge without any problems.   The Samsung would run for 3 days on the house batteries before exhausting them.     We almost never go more than a day without some form of external power so it works great for us.  

I also think that when travelling with the fridge running with inverter power - - that the alternator will keep up with the load indefinitely.

[David White]

Are you sure there is no inverter outlet behind the refrigerator?  They could have changed after 2005, but on mine, one of the outlets is inverter connected and the other is not.  Both are on the same outlet.  Disconnect from power and turn the inverter off-   One should be dead, but should be hot when the inverter is turned on.

[vito.a]

Same on ours.  It's a double outlet and one plug is inverter and the other is not.  This is so you can run the Norcold ice maker on the inverter.  

[Steve Hepfer]

What David said is correct. You have a duplex receptacle behind the refrigerator. One outlet (ice maker) is on the inverter and the other is not.

[Tom Cherry]

Posts are correct.  Test the outlets.  Unplug from shore power and have the Genny off.  In my 2009 Camelot, there are (memory) TWO boxes in the refer compartment.  Plug in anything like even a cell phone charger and you will find (assuming the Inverter is on) and locate the Icemaker Circuit.  Put a piece of tape or mark it. That is what you want to use for the Samsung. 

The other outlet should be DEAD as in NO POWER. Start the genny. You should have power for that outlet. Go to the Main Electrical Panel.  Trip or turn off the REFRIGERATOR Breaker. That should KILL that outlet. You will not need it unless you decided to camp or go full time and be on Shore.

BTW, you need to read the posts about installation of the Samsung.  You sound knowlegeable about this process. Some things to consider on the Camelot

FIRST, make sure you anchor it. I and others have used brackets on the TOP to hold it in place. If you pull off the sheet metal cover inside the upper vent, you can get to the top of the Refer. I used some metal plates up there and used 3M VHB double stick take and put in some wooden braces. I can tell you offline how I did mine. 

SECOND. REMOVE all the insulation once your pull the Dometic out. You do NOT need any internal insulation. If you leave it in, it will be detrimental to the operation. You need air circulation around the Samsung, otherwise, it will overheat or not cool properly.

THIRD. Do NOT put or build a surround around the front. Many folks have had custom cabinetry surrounds or even had an automotive trim shop make a vinyl surround. You should have an opening that is clean. I had a drawer UNDER my Dometic. Pull out that Drawer and cut the opening so it is flush (sides and floor). The Samsung should fit fine. If you try to make the Samsung look built in with maybe a 1/4" gap, you will be restricting the air flow. 

FOURTH. You will need to totally insulate the Refer Compartment doors - TOP one and BOTTOM ONE. If you do not insulate, you the Samsung will not operate in lower temperatures and cut off. I KNOW.....Mine was put in during the fall in the NC Mountains. It shut off many times. Lowes sells Styrofoam panels maybe 3/4" thick.  I used that and the foil backed HVAC Tape.  My panels are now tight. You also need to make sure that you seal the openings on the sides of the Refer Compartment frames. They have slots. The reason... with the Samsung installed and the Dometic (or Norcold) removed, you need to totally SEAL the outside wall. The insulation that Monaco put in was for the Gas/Electric. You want the outside wall sealed like a home wall. I have attached pictures of my panels. You can also buy some foam backed HVAC tape at Lowes. Whatever works so that you seal the side openings of the frame and insulate them as well as the covers. Your MH will be warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. The Samsung will not run if the temps get below about 35. I thought I had a bad unit. NOPE.....the newer refrigerators are all that way. The older refrigerators or freezers could be left in a garage or a carport or such and would work. With the Energy Star standards, the manufacturers had to limit the environment operating temperatures. We like in central NC and the Samsung tech told me that he gets many calls in the beginning of the winter where the Samsung units will cut off when they are in an open or poorly insulated garage. 

FIFTH. If the Samsung goes into "CRAZY MODE" and does not cool and you can not adjust the temperatures, there is ONLY ONE FIX.  Unplug it for about 5 minutes. It will then reset and come back on and work. I was camping at Tom Johnson's RV (now Camping World) in Marion and they installed the Samsung. It quit several times in the middle of the night as it was in the fall and there was a quick freeze. The outside temps dropped into the high 20's. I thought the Samsung was bad. After I got home, I insulated the covers and sealed the holes on the sides of the frame. The Samsung has not had any issues since then. NOW, again...remember that ALL brands have a narrower operating range now, so the Samsung is the same as most.

IF you have the Dometic Unit, then pull out ALL the shelves, the plastic bins, the mounting hardware for the racks and anything inside. I used the plastic crisper bins and put them inside the Samsung. I put WHITE Duct tape on the bottom of the plastic bins. I put matching strips of White duct tape on the top of the bottom shelf. We use them for water bottles on one side and canned drinks on the other. Really neat. We pull out the bins and fill them from the home refer and put out there. I also added TWO of the spring loaded double bar Refer Shelves (Camco makes them and CW and Amazon sells them. They work well and keep things from sliding around.

BTW....if you have the Dometic 1402, I sold ALL the interior parts on Ebay. I got over $200 for them.  I should have pulled the control boards.  You MIGHT want to gut the rear of either the Norcold and the Dometic for the control boards. THEY HAVE VALUE.  

FINALLY... You SHOULD purchase the Fridge Fixer. This is the ABSOULTE best and easiest lock for the Samsung. NOW...many of our members have come up with devices and Velcro and such. They are great, but if you don't want to reinvent the wheel, then this is one that I PERSONALLY have tested and talked to many members. It works.  When I store the RV, I leave the Samsung's doors open and put the KEY or the LOCK on the steering wheel to remind me to LOCK IT.

Good Luck.  PM for info on the mounting system that I used.

 

[96 EVO]

Tom, did you get your NDA1402 out the door, or have to remove a window?

[CapnDean]

ok all done ...yes I found that there is an inverter outlet in there!   I did not remove the insulation on the sides, my  bad -- Ill need to do that in the am.  On second thought - - what difference would it make on the sides?  The case is insulated for that purpose.   I understand not to block airflow down low in the front or in the back?

I did however seal up the original vents.   Thanks guys for the help!  I have secured mine top and bottom from the back.

Edited November 11, 2020 by CapnDean
official review

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Tom, did you get your NDA1402 out the door, or have to remove a window?

Had a dealer do it. They pulled a side window and used a fork truck

Some folks have really abused and scratched their dashes.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, CapnDean said:

ok all done ...yes I found that there is an inverter outlet in there!   I did not remove the insulation on the sides, my  bad -- Ill need to do that in the am.  On second thought - - what difference would it make on the sides?  The case is insulated for that purpose.   I understand not to block airflow down low in the front or in the back?

I did however seal up the original vents.   Thanks guys for the help!  I have secured mine top and bottom from the back.

You will NOT have proper air circulation around the Res Refer.  You will have issues with overheating in the rear as the air flow must come from all sides. The insulation was for a Gas/Electric Heater unit. That blocked the heat from coming in.  The Dometic or the Norcolds did not have to have the side clearance. If you leave it in, then you may have to add a couple of 12 VDC fans and a thermostat.  One of our members had to do that even with side clearance as the area behind the Samsung was shorter and there was less air volume. The techs at Tom Johnson said that NOT removing the insulation was one of the most major mistakes that individuals made and that they had to reinstall many of them as they were not cooling.

Just passing this on. Read the Samsung manual and the installation instructions.  There is barely enough clearance. When you fill that gap, then you need to move out the walls. Does your home refrigerator or the built in's have insulation? NOPE! BTW, Monaco does NOT use insulation on Res Refers, only the Gas/Electric to keep the AC load from getting too high.

[PeterSchweizer]

On 11/9/2020 at 7:31 PM, David White said:

Are you sure there is no inverter outlet behind the refrigerator?  They could have changed after 2005, but on mine, one of the outlets is inverter connected and the other is not.  Both are on the same outlet.  Disconnect from power and turn the inverter off-   One should be dead, but should be hot when the inverter is turned on.

Agree that is how my O4 Cayman is wired one plug works off inverter the other off shore power

[Tom Cherry]

Based on what I know and have read here...  Monaco only started adding the INVERTER Powered Icemaker Receptacle (mine has separate boxes so they are NOT in the same box) when Norcold started to separate the two circuits. The original Norcolds, and perhaps others like Dometic, originally came with ONLY one pigtail or power cord. Then, based on demand, they added the second. Therefore, there was an ISOLATED or separate pigtail (power cord) for the icemaker. THEN Monaco, as well as the other RV manufacturers, put in TWO outlets.  One for the POWER (heaters) which came from the Main Circuit 110 VAC Panel.  The OTHER outlet was from the INVERTER, which powered the Icemaker.  Thus, you could be on Propane and still get ice from the Unit as the icemaker was powered from the Inverter

[CapnDean]

Alright TOM Cherry:  Advice well taken.    This is the 3rd residential install that I have done, I did not leave the insulation in either of my previous installs because the insulation was all mangled anyway.   I left it in this one because it looked good.   REGARDLESS:   I unscrewed the refrigerator, removed my upper bracket and slidd that puppy forward so that I could yank out the old insulation.    I did that solely based on your warning.    Today I insulated the covers that used to be necessary fir the propane burning unit.   I figure that the RF18 Samsung does not need the ventilation and it is better to keep the cold out.

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

Since this is your third, you are the expert. I only know what a read. I do KNOW that if you camp and it is cold and the vents (for the propane) are open, then the Samsung will DIE. 

Actually, the Samsung DOES require ventilation. You get that from the sides and the back and the top. It wants CONDITIONED ventilation, now COLD. 

From an HVAC Load standpoint, I would advise that you check the sides of the frames or where the Vent Covers go into. On mine there is an opening on each side. That will let in COLD and HOT air. What you are trying to achieve is a solid wall with the same R-Value as the outside wall. I filled in the two slots with the Sytrofoam (you could tape the outside and use expanding foam, I suppose). I then covered, on the backside of the Styrofoam, the insualation. I THINK that I used two thickenesses and also some HVAC Black tape and then the foil tape. My vent frame probably have a higher R-Value than the wall, but I don't have any cooling or heating issues.

Good Luck...

[Bob Nodine]

13 hours ago, CapnDean said:

Alright TOM Cherry:  Advice well taken.    This is the 3rd residential install that I have done, I did not leave the insulation in either of my previous installs because the insulation was all mangled anyway.   I left it in this one because it looked good.   REGARDLESS:   I unscrewed the refrigerator, removed my upper bracket and slidd that puppy forward so that I could yank out the old insulation.    I did that solely based on your warning.    Today I insulated the covers that used to be necessary fir the propane burning unit.   I figure that the RF18 Samsung does not need the ventilation and it is better to keep the cold out.

 

 

Modern residential refrigerators dissipate heat on each side and if you leave that insulation on the side of the enclosure it will slow the transfer of heat out of the refrigerator. I know the Samsung dissipates heat on the side because I operated ours in the garage before installing it in the coach. You could put your hands on the sides and feel the heat. You are correct in closing off all the vents for the old frig. The Samsung pulls air in from the bottom towards the back and the flow is up over the top and down each side. You need an air gap on each side and at the top. A residential frig is designed to operate with air inside a home so external air from outside the coach is not desirable.    

[mmccwill]

I`ve installed 5 Samsung`s in Monaco Coaches & on two of them(including mine , 07 Camelot) none of the recpts was powered was powered through the inverter-- I installed a J box where the microwave circuit exit`s the inverter & jumped that circuit to one of the two behind the frig -- The Dometic 1402 is a little to wide to go through entry door -- Norcold will -- I use a simple velcro strap to hold the doors -- A word of caution -- On one 07 Camelot, I found that the frig cabinet was only 24 inches deep in place of the normal 27 inches deep -- That makes it very close to install electrical outlets --  Bill Willard

[96 EVO]

So, if you plug your residential fridge into the ice-maker, inverted receptacle box, does that take away usable amps from the rest of the outlets in the coach, before tripping the inverter breaker?

Does anybody switch the fridge plug to the non-inverted outlet when set up on shore power?

[Tom Cherry]

9 hours ago, mmccwill said:

I`ve installed 5 Samsung`s in Monaco Coaches & on two of them(including mine , 07 Camelot) none of the recpts was powered was powered through the inverter-- I installed a J box where the microwave circuit exit`s the inverter & jumped that circuit to one of the two behind the frig -- The Dometic 1402 is a little to wide to go through entry door -- Norcold will -- I use a simple velcro strap to hold the doors -- A word of caution -- On one 07 Camelot, I found that the frig cabinet was only 24 inches deep in place of the normal 27 inches deep -- That makes it very close to install electrical outlets --  Bill Willard

Youi are obviously well informed and experienced. All I know is that most of the factory, I think, Res Refers have the power split. The Icemakers are on the Inverter and the Heaters are on the 15 Amp REFER Breaker in the Electrical Panel. I don't have a clue with Norcold and Dometic separated the plugs. Monaco and others MAY have just put in a Duplex and you plugged both in. The 2009 Camelot prints show TWO receptacles, which mine has.

I measured my Dometic 1402 and Tom Johnson's guys said it was WAY less trouble (they had a fork lift) to yank out a window and then move the Dometic (they pulled the doors and I found an operating rod that baffled me) out as well as bringing in the Samsung.  Again, my Dometic had a lot of clearance. Bill Grove's 2006 Dynasty, I think, also had limited space. He actually added two low wattage 12 VDC fans and a T'Stat to improve air flow. That is why insulating is a prime concern as well as pulling out the insulation.

Thanks for the info and comments.

[Tom Cherry]

8 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

So, if you plug your residential fridge into the ice-maker, inverted receptacle box, does that take away usable amps from the rest of the outlets in the coach, before tripping the inverter breaker?

Does anybody switch the fridge plug to the non-inverted outlet when set up on shore power?

The heaters (when you are using AC) for the Gas/Electric are around 350 watts or so or maybe 800 watts max. Well within the 15 Amp CB capacity.

I googled and found an 80 page paper on the thermodynamics and heat transfer and such on an "Automatic" ice maker. The charts show that there will be aorund an amp or so of energy required, when the cubes are freezing. Then there is a 1 - 2 minute spike in the wattage when the heater comes in. The heater is around 200 watts so you use about 1.5 Amps. watts.  Bottom line, if you use the icemaker, you will, in theory, use around 15% of a 2000 Watt Inverter's capacity.

Most folks do not run the icemaker when on Inverter Battery. There is an ON/OFF switch for the icemaker. I do not run mine while traveling as the water might splash and you would get clumps of ice.

NOW...a WORD to the WISE. Monaco (others probably too), cheated. They ran all the internal outlets through a GFCI. Mine is a receptacle style. I found there were TWO downstream circuits (two pieces of Romex). I moved the Icemaker Outlet to the Incoming or Non - Protected side. Your home icemaker and microwave are dedicated circuits.  You do not NEED (nor WANT) the heaters on a Gas/Electric refer on a GFCI. Any minor leakage MIGHT cause a false trip. The GFCI's get crotechey and cantankerous the older they get.  So, they need to be replaced and the icemaker's heaters do NOT need to be there. My Samsung is NOT on a GFCI, after I revised the connections.  It have NEVER given me a problem.  The Dometic would False Trip

[Bob Nodine]

11 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

 

Most folks do not run the icemaker when on Inverter Battery. There is an ON/OFF switch for the icemaker. I do not run mine while traveling as the water might splash and you would get clumps of ice.

 

I guess the wife and I must be odd but that does not surprise me because we are a little strange. One of the items on my check list is to dump the old ice and turn on the ice maker before we pull the coach out of the garage. The frig stays on 24/7 365 days a year and has only been powered off a few times since it was installed. We leave the inverter on 24/7 365 days a year also. Things like the satellite receiver and the microwave clock are always powered and the transitions between shore, inverter, and generator do not disturb them. We have never noticed any clumps of ice from the ice maker but I guess that is possible if the tray has just filled and a skin of ice has not yet formed on top of the water before the coach encounters some kind of stability event.

[Dr4Film]

When I had the NotSoCold and ice maker the only "clump" of ice I ever got was due to the fact that the freezer was never cold enough to keep the ice or the ice cream from becoming one big glob of partially frozen water.

[USMC E-5]

Which frig is the better res. frig to put in replacement of the 1402 dometic and do i lose the bottom drawer.

[Tom Cherry]

No BRAINER....for me.  Samsung RF 17 or whatever the number is now. Did that several years ago. Also have talked or emailed a lot of Camelot owners.

Hints...and THIS might not work for you... 

MUST insulated the top and bottom access covers (assuming you do NOT have top vent). You need to insulate the side holes in the frame. I posted pictures 

Remove ALL the insulation on the sides. You need PURE air circulation. The insulation was to keep the heat from the burner/heater from coming in. 

Do NOT pay good money for a "custom" surround. It fits FINE. If you have a vinyl or wooden surround, you will have heating issues. You need the gaps on each side and top and bottom to allow for cooling and air circulation.

There are a VARIETY of ways to hold it in place. THIS is what I had to do..

When they pull the old refer out, you WILL lose the bottom drawer. DON'T Sweat it.  It was, for us, useless and we forgot what was there. Have them remove the shelf in the back. That is where the water line and gas line is. IF you leave it in, you will need to have them cut several 2 or 3" holes in it (Hole saw). You need to let the AC compressor breath. Mine was not removed, so I used a drill and cut or bored the holes. 

I used some SS plates and 3M VHB (Clear) Tape. Amazon has that in various widths and lengths.  Here is the drill.

Take a piece of paper. Draw a line on the 11" side 3/4"from the edge. Fold that strip up. That is the shape and approx size of each plate. You will need TWO. Chris Throgmartin here has a fabricator that does his SS plates. He might help you. Otherwise find a piece of SS and get a sheet metal (HVAC) shop to make a bend for you. 

These two plates will be double stick adhesive taped to the TOP of the Refigerator....AFTER it is in place. Alcohol preps are needed. DO NOT DRILL OR PUT SCREWS INTO THE SAMSUNG.

The Refer needs to be IN PLACE and FLUSH with cabinet with the SLIDE extended. Here are the steps.

Measure back about a FOOT from the front of the cabinet. Screw or GLUE (Both) a short piece of wood think a 2" X 3/4" firring strip about a foot long..  Can be shorter. Run the FIrring STRIP DOWN so that the center of it will be approximately at the TOP of the Refrigerator. Try to get them exactly the same depth from the front. NOT fussy...but easier.

Cut TWO pieces of 5/4 Decking from treated deck board. That or OAK will work. You will need TWO strips.  Measure the width of the refrigerator and add an inch. Then CUT the piece in half. That piece needs to be about 3" WIDE....  You NOW have your upper braces.

Drill 3 holes (maybe 3/16"dia) in each of the turned up edges of the SS plate. You will need 6 deck screws...maybe 2" long (maybe washers) to attach the wood.

WITH the Refer in PLACE...  Put a wooden brace on TOP of the Refer. It needs to be on the BACK SIDE of the firrring STRIP. NOW... Use a piece of duct tape or such to HOLD IT DOWN. Then cover the bottom of the plate (the 10" side) with 3M tape. Clean the surface BEHIND the brace. You will THEN Attach of GLUE down the plate on one side. When you drive THREE screws into the wood (through the plate's holes), you have nailed DOWN the refer on one side. It will NOT move FORWARD or SIDEWAYS.  Repeat on the OTHER side. The piece of paper example is overkill. A piece of 6" wide plate about 8" long with a turned up 3/4" edge will work.

The 3/4" TURNED UP EDGE is the key. You can pull out the screws. You can remove the wooden brace. You can SLIDE OUT the refer for repairs as the 3/4" edge will NOT hit the upper wood. 5/8 to 1/2 MIGH work. You want to be able to SCREW the brace in so that it keeps the refer from moving forward and side to side....

NOW....You can add side blocks on the rear and screw down a piece of 2X4 (or two) in the rear. That will keep it from moving back. The side spacers are easy. Use a slightly wedge shaped block on each end and screw to the side walls.

That is IT. This design evolved from how some other folks mounted...and then I figured out the geometry and the logic for the top. 

There SHOULD be a sheet metal baffle inside the TOP opening. That is easily removable. The Tech worked from there. The shop is NOW using this method for all installs...

Hope this helps....