Surge Protection equipment

[Mike Wahl]

I have a few questions on surge protection.   

1. From my research that I have done, the Surge Guard Model 40100 is only a transfer switch and has no surge protection.   Is this a correct? 

 We were told it was a transfer switch and surge protection when we were buying the coach.  My bad for not researching more at the time.  I guess with the name Surge Guard I assumed it was both as we were led to believe.

2.  What is the difference between a 50 amp home surge protector like can be purchased at Lowes or Home Depot and a RV surge protector.   Does the RV one do more than the ones built for a home.  What is the difference between a surge protector and a EMS?

 

Mike

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Mike Wahl
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[Bill Morgan]

You were lied to.

[KevinH]

I’ve seen a lot of different answers to this debate I’ve had my RV for four years and I’ve never used any additional surge protection. This is what’s in my RV

I am considering buying this because I have been in some RV parks with some very low voltage                                  Hughes Autoformers RV220-50SP Voltage Booster (with Surge Protection), 1 Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MXL9YJV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabt1_ogMTFbKSCD9QB?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1.   

[Scotty Hutto]

Mike,

You are correct that the Southwire model 40100 does not have built-in surge protection. It is a basic, although good, transfer switch.  Seems odd they use the SurgeGuard name on it back then. Southwire no longer use the SurgeGuard name on basic transfer switches.  
 

The general consensus of this group over the years would be that the Progressive Industries HW50C surge protectors are some of the best, followed pretty closely by the Southwire units. Hardwired is more convenient - but requires some installation. Many prefer the plug-in units.  These are much more robust than anything you can get at a big box hardware store. 

Kevin,

the model 40250 you have in your coach has full-blown surge protection built in  

 

[Dr4Film]

The setup I have installed in my coach is as follows: 50 amp shore cord followed by a VC-50 Power Master Voltage Booster followed by the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C and lastly my ESCO Lyght Transfer Switch.

The VC-50 has 3580 Jules of surge protection and the EMS-HW-50C has another 3580 Jules of surge protection.

I have never lost my power due to overloaded RV Parks with low voltage. My VC-50 ensures that my power is always higher than the low cut-off protection point that the EMS-HW-50C provides.

Kevin, I posted a used Hughes Autoformer in the classified section for a former member and friend, Rich Oliveria. Check it out.

[Mike Wahl]

12 hours ago, Bill Morgan said:

You were lied to.

Bill, I don't think it was an intentional lie, the guys was very honest about some other things that I didn't see right away.   I think he was not educated and assumed like I did with the name Surge Guard it did surge protection.  Anyways, water over the dam. 

 

2 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

The setup I have installed in my coach is as follows: 50 amp shore cord followed by a VC-50 Power Master Voltage Booster followed by the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C and lastly my ESCO Lyght Transfer Switch.

Richard, Just want to make sure I'm following you correctly.  So with the amount of boondocking we will be doing the EMS is what we want to put in 1st.  Down the road if we have issues with power shut down due to voltage we could add the voltage booster.

Mike

[Dr4Film]

10 minutes ago, Mike Wahl said:

Richard, Just want to make sure I'm following you correctly.  So with the amount of boondocking we will be doing the EMS is what we want to put in 1st.  Down the road if we have issues with power shut down due to voltage we could add the voltage booster.

Mike

Yes, that is correct. It should be installed BEFORE your transfer switch.

[throgmartin]

The surge guard 4000 is simply a transfer switch. The 41260 is also a transfer switch and also provides surge protection as well as protects against bad power or open grounds.

The 41260 model is the unit Bill Groves suggested I get. With Bill being a switching/relay engineer and having decades of experience I go by what he specifies. One word of caution, it is very large and one should be sure they have enough space in their electrical bay before buying it. My tech had a helluva time installing it and had to get creative when mounting it. In the end it did fit next to my cord reel but it ate up most the space in the bay. It also is a 2 person job as it weighs a lot. That extra set of hands helps.

Here is the model I am using: https://www.amazon.com/Surge-Guard-41260-Automatic-Transfer/dp/B004A30I78/ref=sr_1_1?crid=UGKVX8VWVCKB&dchild=1&keywords=surge+guard+41260+automatic+rv+transfer+switch+50+amp&qid=1605816046&sprefix=surge+guard+41260%2Caps%2C186&sr=8-1

 

[Tom Cherry]

7 hours ago, throgmartin said:

The surge guard 4000 is simply a transfer switch. The 41260 is also a transfer switch and also provides surge protection as well as protects against bad power or open grounds.

The 41260 model is the unit Bill Groves suggested I get. With Bill being a switching/relay engineer and having decades of experience I go by what he specifies. One word of caution, it is very large and one should be sure they have enough space in their electrical bay before buying it. My tech had a helluva time installing it and had to get creative when mounting it. In the end it did fit next to my cord reel but it ate up most the space in the bay. It also is a 2 person job as it weighs a lot. That extra set of hands helps.

Here is the model I am using: https://www.amazon.com/Surge-Guard-41260-Automatic-Transfer/dp/B004A30I78/ref=sr_1_1?crid=UGKVX8VWVCKB&dchild=1&keywords=surge+guard+41260+automatic+rv+transfer+switch+50+amp&qid=1605816046&sprefix=surge+guard+41260%2Caps%2C186&sr=8-1

 

The debate will rage about whether to install the 41260 SurgeGuard versus a conventional ATS and the Progressive Industries HW50C.  The pros for a conventional ATS and the Progressive.

The SurgeGuard 41260 is not field serviceable.  The MOV's (heart and soul of the Surge protection) MAY have an alarm light or a warning light to say that they have been toasted.  The HW-50C is 100% serviceable. There are only three components.  The control board; Surge PCB (MOV's) and a Relay.  There has been debate about how Progressive rates the relay. However, based on reading all the posts on the HW50C from 2010, when I realized that my Plug IN (external) SurgeGuard would not show WHEN there was a failure and installing mine, there has been only ONE relay failure.  That was caused by a FAULTY installation. I spent a little time at the Progressive assembly plant in the RDU area and knew Tommy Fannelli, the owner. He was an EX-SurgeGuard field rep and SurgeGuard was unresponsive to field issues. He and his brother, an EE (PE maybe also), designed the Progressive lineup. They are assembled in the area. Tommy sold the company and the service level may be a little "lower", however, the parts are in stock and it does not take anything other than a screwdriver and a pair of needle nose pliers to swap out either board. They upgraded mine from time to time, so I know the drill.

The most important thing about the HW50C is that you can NOT bypass it or use it if there is a Floating Neutral. A floating neutral can kill all your 115 VAC devices. When the neutral is floating or bad or gone (poor or no connection), the each side of the line (L1 and L2) try to make a circuit. There will be upwards of 160-170 VAC and that will fry your TV, Microwave, Sat receiver, Refrigerator, etc. There have been documented cases (on the old board) of folks having to try to get their insurance to pay for upwards of $15,000 in damages.

NOW, Monaco did use the 41260 (or past equivalent) of it on the Dynasties and above. Many people are using it now. The question is...does it STILL have Surge protection?  Bill G. will have to chime in here as to whether there is an alarm or alert. Will it automatically shut down when there is a floating ground? 

I lost a neutral once and the HW50C saved me. The neutral terminal inside the Molded power (Shore) connector came loose.  BINGO. no Neutral or NO POWER. I had to swap and run the genny until I got home and trouble shot the problem.

Most folks with models like the Camelot or Windsor or lower choose the HW50C. The cost of  an ESCO LPT50BRD (same as Richard's LYGHT) and the HW50C is about the same as the 41260.  There have been some members that pulled out the 41260 and sold it used on eBay and purchased a conventional ATS and the HW50C.

The HW50C also has the remote readout. You can see the L1 and L2 volts and amps at all time. The error codes also tell you WHERE to look and WHY if you have a power problem. I have moved several times from one end of a CG to the other when all the units had their AC's humming and the line voltage was down in the high 90's. You do NOT want Brownout. I think that the HW50C has a higher (low voltage) value, so it cuts OFF quicker...been a while since I did a side by side.

The 41260 seems to be an OK ATS, however, it lacks many features which I use and is also not field serviceable....

I don't recall any reports of any major issues....just seems like the majority of the old board that had lower food chain MH's installed the HW50C. 

If you have a NEW ATS, then it would be logical to install the HW50C and get the features and benefits and not throw out a new switch.

I would not purchase a "Black Box" sealed (Non Field serviceable with NO Remote or any error codes or warnings) and use it. That is a recipe for disaster. That unit will NOT turn the existing ATS into the 41260......no way.

Just my opinion and shared by many members over the years.

[David Pratt]

I am in agreement with Tom C

My coach is equipped with the Surge Guard, Model 40250-RVC with the optional remote display mounted in the bay and is Integrated into the Silver Leaf.

I have attached a brochure describing the features of the Model 41260 and the Model 40250-RVC from the Surge Guard Website describing the benefits of either one. My money would be on the Model 40250-RVC for the best protection.

 

Surge Guard 41260 40250.pdf

[Tom Cherry]

42 minutes ago, David Pratt said:

I am in agreement with Tom C

My coach is equipped with the Surge Guard, Model 40250-RVC with the optional remote display mounted in the bay and is Integrated into the Silver Leaf.

I have attached a brochure describing the features of the Model 41260 and the Model 40250-RVC from the Surge Guard Website describing the benefits of either one. My money would be on the Model 40250-RVC for the best protection.

 

Surge Guard 41260 40250.pdf 419.65 kB · 1 download

David,

Thanks for the link. Your 40250RVC is comparable to having a conventional ATS and an HW50C.  Here is the specs for the HW50C

https://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems-hw50c

The rating of the HW50C is a smidge (150 Joules) higher. The 41260 does now have all the features of the 40250RVC when you look at over and under and open ground and such. The HW50C is pretty bullet proof. 

The side by side comparison of the three says that for best protection you either get the 40250-RVC or a conventional ATS and install the HW50C.

https://rvpower.southwire.com/products/transfer-switches/50a-hardwire-model-40350-rvc-automatic-transfer-switch/

The 40250-RVC, HOWEVER, needs a remote and wiring harness for stand alone (not integrated into a compatible RVC device).  Total cost of the 40250-RVC, cable and remote is around $825 from Amazon.

The HW50C, with remote and cable, is a smidge over $300..

Nothing else to say....

[amphi_sc]

Tom,

If for some reason I were to replace my existing 40250-RV with the alternative two component solution consisting of the HW50C, would that simply tie into my Aladin displays as the 40250 does now?  Or would one have to run new monitoring wires and find a place/method to mount yet another display?  My existing stuff always shows L2 as 2-3 volts higher than it actually is as measured with other meters on either side of the transfer switch... Or even when the coach is fed with a 30A to 50A pigtail so both legs would have to be equal as it comes from a single leg in that instance.  At some parks with good but high voltage up around 126-127 no load, the 2-3 volt error causes the Aladin to warn of high 130 on leg 2.  So for a couple of years I've been toying with the idea of replacing the 40250...  I'm curious but not immediately worried as so far it has never tripped the coach out on high voltage, but will trip on low V when I don't plug in the Hughes AF. (Or bad neutral or one leg open, etc, as it should.). I don't always leave the Hughes in place as with it's 2% voltage bump in pass thru mode it can aggravate that false L2 high voltage "problem" I have.

[Tom Cherry]

The original post got lost in hyperwhatever.

The HW50C, unless Progressive or Aladdin can tell you PROBABLY will not interface or is compatible. If you pull the specs off the Southwire site, the 40250-RVC has to have a separate Remote for standalone. SO, if you installed the HW50C, you would lose the interface. There is an RF22 output from the HW50C, but whether they speak the same language, only testing will tell. 

If you look at the features or the specifications of the 40250 versus the HW50C, they appear to be the same.

Having read the specs on the original Surge Guard switches a few times over the years, I THINK that SurgeGuard actually reverse engineered their protection to mirror that of the HW50C. The original SurgeGuard all in one ATS had a lower voltage cutoff, maybe 95 or 100. It is now been railsed.

The only difference is in the rating of the surge spike and the HW50C appears to be higher by maybe 5%.

However, the real question...and not for you, probably is COST.  A conventional  LPT50BRD sells from $180 - $350. Amazon has them for $250 or so. Add in the $300 for the HW50C @ $300  and you get around $550.  That includes the remote.  Amazon has the 40250, and the meter and interconnect cable for around $825.  That pretty much sums it up. You have TWO field serviceable components as the ESCO and the Progressive can have components replaced versus a combo switch that has to go back to the factory.

EBay has some used 40250's and they are going for almost nothing. I have seen the SurgeGuard switches sell there for around 50% or so of best internet price.  Just a matter or timing.

As far as another display, that would not be a big deal for me. The Display is about 2/3's the size of a Magnum. I have a Vacuum Cleaner Toe Kick inlet right under my control panel wall in the hallway between the living and bathroom areas.  I poked a hole in the expanded foam and ran the wire up there. That was exactly what Monaco did in the factor for the Solar Monitor. I mounted my remote on the wall area right above the control panel cutout. It is about eye level and I can see what is happening.

If you have not have any issues...then maybe leave it alone.  If  not, then, unless the Silverleaf interface is critical, I would opt for the more conventional standalone ATS and the HW50C.

Hope this help[s.

[Mike Wahl]

Guys,

Thank you for all of the input.  I have reviewed and will be ordering the HW50C to install upstream from my ATS.  Do items like this ever go on sale or is the price the price? I found it on Amazon and Home Depot for $306.38.

Thanks again.

Mike

[Dr4Film]

That is a fairly decent price for the EMS-HW-50C without the second remote. You can always add the second remote at a later time as I did. I paid right around $300 many years ago.

However this one is even cheaper on eBay if you have an eBay account. $269 or best offer.

https://tinyurl.com/y3tp9cmk

eBay has some other ones that you may be interested in looking at too.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Dr4Film