Weird Power from inverter

[Bill C]

We have had 2-3 Sunbeam electric blanket controllers go bad recently when running on the inverter.

Out heating pads won't work after being left plugged in to the outlet, running on the inverter. To fix them, we have to unplug them for about 15 seconds and then plug them in.

Our electric clock always run fast on out inverter.

Is our inverter working improperly?

Our inverter is the Magnum Energy Inverter model: ME2012, version #: 5.4, about 5 years old.

Our inverter normally runs once shore power is cut and while we are driving down the road to our next camp site.

Anyone experience similar things?

Thanks,

Bill

[Jim Byrd]

Many electronic products will not perform properly on inverters that produce a modified sine wave output such as your inverter/charger.

[David Schmees]

We killed a couple of Sunbeam bed warmers running on the inverter. Jim is correct that a lot of electronic devices do not like modified sine wave. 

[rpasetto]

We lost a few automatic coffee makers a while back.  Realized the cheap electronics in the timer controls were getting fried.  Went to a good ol' coffee maker with just an on-off switch and no more problems.

 

The "modified Sine Wave" is basically a square wave and many electronic circuits react the way they would to voltage spikes.

[Dr4Film]

2 hours ago, Corkman said:

Our inverter is the Magnum Energy Inverter model: ME2012, version #: 5.4, about 5 years old.

Anyone experience similar things?

Thanks,Bill

Bill, you never posted whether your Inverter is a MSW or a PSW Inverter. But from your symptoms I would bet that it is a MSW as many electrical devices do NOT like MSW Inverter power.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

It has been known on this group for a long time that inverters are not kind to electric blankets and heating pads.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

[Bill C]

17 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

Bill, you never posted whether your Inverter is a MSW or a PSW Inverter. But from your symptoms I would bet that it is a MSW as many electrical devices do NOT like MSW Inverter power.

What is a MSW and a PSW. So do not have the best type? What should we get?

[Dr4Film]

6 minutes ago, Corkman said:

What is a MSW and a PSW. So do not have the best type? What should we get?

MSW stand for Modified Sine Wave which is basically a square wave looking power wave curve if hooked to an oscilloscope.

PSW stands for Pure Sine Wave which is exactly like the power wave that is supplied to our regular residential houses, which is a sinusoidal power wave curve.

[Bill C]

6 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

MSW stand for Modified Sine Wave which is basically a square wave looking power wave curve if hooked to an oscilloscope.

PSW stands for Pure Sine Wave which is exactly like the power wave that is supplied to our regular residential houses, which is a sinusoidal power wave curve.

Thanks

[Just Jim]

And yes, if you replace, go with a pure sine wave inverter.  Electric blankets are not all that expensive, but computers, etc are...  The PSW type are not really much more expensive.  The difficult part for me was that the inverter was stuck back in a storage bay that you could only reach while laying on your side deep in one of the basement pass throughs.  That inverter is fairly heavy and difficult to lift and position while contorted like that...  especially for an old fat man like me. 

[BennieH]

I was told by Monaco tech support (when they were in Colberg yet) many years ago that Modified Sine was the reason the bedroom outlets weren't on the inverter on my coach. Electric blankets with digital/solid state controls would be damaged and fail.

[Dr4Film]

My coach was built in Indiana and there was only one outlet in the entire coach that wasn't on the Inverter. That was for the old NotSoCold. I now have two as I ran an extension from that outlet to another one that I installed near the drivers console. I use that one to plug in the charging cord for the wireless Onan EC-30W Auto Generator Start System that I installed some time ago. My RC7-GS does not have any temperature control whereas the Onan EC-30W does. So now if the coach loses power the EC-30W senses that because it in on a non-inverter outlet and starts the generator.

The only device I have had any problems with while using the MSW inverter is a 120 VAC remote control device I use to turn on the Swag lamp I have hanging over our dining table as Monaco never installed one. I have lost two of those (I tried two different brands) so now I have the master remote plugged into the extended non-inverter outlet with an extension cord going up to the plug of the swag lamp that is over at the other end of the large salon slide. No more smoking the remotes when on Inverter power.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Dr4Film

[6Wheels]

I watched Thursday as a Guatemalan drywall crew fried their new LED floor light.  They were running on the generator.

First the light started to flicker, then Pssszzzd! No more light.

These here are a good example of inverter chargers typically used on RVs:  Results for inverter charger (rvupgradestore.com)

Check the size in your rig and stay with that size to keep it simple.

[Bill C]

6 hours ago, 6Wheels said:

thanks

 

[Bill C]

Based on the feedback from everyone, I would like to swap my 2000 watt Magnum ME2012 inverter/charger with a pure sine wave inverter/charger but there are so many out there I have no idea which option to chose? Even among Magnum's (Sensata) line, there are MS Series, MS-AEJ, MS-E, MS-PE, MS2000, MSH, MSH-RV PSW, NP Series, etc, and that’s just from one company, How do I chose?

My first thoughts are: I think it would be easier to swap it with a similar model, magnum, that will fit in the same area, use the same remote wiring, use the same thermo sensor wiring, etc.

Any suggestions/thought?

Thanks, 

Bill

Edited May 9, 2021 by Corkman

[6Wheels]

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[fredelkamp]

We replaced our ME2012 with a Magnum Energy MSH3012 Pure Sine Wave Hybrid Mobile Inverter when we added the solar panels and Battleborn batteries. 3,000 watts and can augment your power when only running of 20-15 amps. Now I just need to figure out how to feed it to the bedroom outlets and ACs.

Edited May 21, 2021 by fredelkamp

[Terry T]

Fred,

I did this change over also.  Did you reprogram the inverter to “look /turn on “ at a certain amp draw.

This setting is set on the rc 50 control, under search watts.

Another way to make it turn on is manually. Right below the charge button is the invert button.

Just to let you know, when I plug in mr coffee, the inverter light does not come on, but, the beautiful sound of coffee dripping does happen.

terry t

[fredelkamp]

Not yet, we're on 50 amp so no need. We've lost power a couple of times and it comes right on.

[Tom Cherry]

On 5/7/2021 at 5:17 PM, Corkman said:

We have had 2-3 Sunbeam electric blanket controllers go bad recently when running on the inverter.

Out heating pads won't work after being left plugged in to the outlet, running on the inverter. To fix them, we have to unplug them for about 15 seconds and then plug them in.

Our electric clock always run fast on out inverter.

Is our inverter working improperly?

Our inverter is the Magnum Energy Inverter model: ME2012, version #: 5.4, about 5 years old.

Our inverter normally runs once shore power is cut and while we are driving down the road to our next camp site.

Anyone experience similar things?

Thanks,

Bill

https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/product-inverter/2000w-12vdc-pure-sine-inverter-charger-0

YES....your Inverter is working as designed and the issues you have are related to the difference between a Modified (ME series) and a Pure Sine (MS Series).  Here is my take on it....since you asked.  Basically, this would be a ONE for ONE swap. You need to get the Model and Serial Number from your old inverter.

1>Magnum can tell you EXACTLY what is a direct swap as to the PN. ODDS are...it is this...

https://www.amazon.com/Magnum-MS2012-2000W-Inverter-Charger/dp/B002MW6PHG

2>You will also need to purchase a NEW Remote that utilizes the features and such of the newer MS series. The inverter does NOT come with the REMOTE...

3>you will need to replace, assuming you have one, the AGS to the ASG-N Auto Gen Start model.

4>You will need to replace the GFCI (s?) that you have on the inverter. You MAY have a GFCI Breaker in the main panel or you MAY have an individual 20 Amp GFCI (like in your home, garage or bathroom) that is inside the MH. All these MUST be compatible with the NEW Inverter. Magnum has a list of approved models and brands that will work with their inverters (have been tested).

NOW....here is where it gets tricky....and not knowing you level of expertise, here goes....this is NOT meant to be talking down or condensending.

PROBABLY in your 2001, you did NOT have a Sub Panel or downstream panels with breakers. HOPEFULLY, there are TWO cables or outputs from your inverter. That would be ONE for the Microwave (Dedicated). The OTHER is a  single 20 Amp service that will go to the GFCI. Again, if you have a GFCI in the main panel, then that is the Inverter...if you have a receptacle style GFCI, then that is what is protecting the MH.  Monaco typically did very little planning, so the single GFCI was set up for ALL the internal house receptacles and the GFCI gets old and cantankerous (like some of US) and then complains and trips out quicker.

I would ALSO offer an additional solution that MIGHT be more cost effective. FIRST...IF the Inverter works for ALL your OTHER needs...and you indicate that it does....then look at options.  To preface that remark....

Did you also upgrade or get a NEW Remote when you installed the Inverter 5 years ago? If not, and this is MY personal advice....I would ask Magnum for the model number of the most up to date (latest revision) of the remote that would work for your ME inverter. They can tell you if yours is new or whatever. I would order one from Amazon or online and upgrade. That way, you have a NEW one. I DO have a MS (Pure Sine) that is a 2009.

My controller went haywire and I had functional issues. It is NOT a bad practice to occassionally do a HARD reset at the inverter. There is a small power button. Hold it in for the count of 20. That clears any faults and the inverter goes from there.

You SHOULD also, while (If?) you have Magnum on the phone, ask them to go over the Inverter Setup functions.

NOW>>>>all of this will NOT cure your original complaint....but it WILL give you optimum performance from your existing 5 YO inverter. My best guess is that you will spend around $2000 or so for the new (MS2012) and the remote and the AGS-N and the GFCI's....maybe $400-$500 in labor. If  it is a turnkey job where you purchase the items from a dealer or tech...it might be a few hundred more.

IF you need to use some items, such as your clock or the heating pads, then install a standalone inverter and run a separate outlet...  Battery powered clock might be a good option. 

A Xantrex (well known brand) 600 Watt PURE Sine Wave (with GFCI) is $170 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-Technology-Inc-012-TR1000-806-1206/dp/B002O5P8BA/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwna2FBhDPARIsACAEc_VJJk7Iaqm_PaV_KnnyfRb2u3vG34shGMl9m1aESFXb6KihCsBNw9UaAivxEALw_wcB&hvadid=410022231978&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9009731&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=14292301071495808977&hvtargid=kwd-300216474606&hydadcr=7484_11110662&keywords=xantrex+806-1206&qid=1621885051&sr=8-1

The SIMPLIEST install is to have it put right beside your existing Magnum and run the DC Cables directly to it.  That is a SHORT Run and the DC cables to your battery bank are way oversize....so the additional current or charging would NOT be an issue. Then have a 120 VAC circuit added and routed to your bedroom. Then, use that for your electric blankets. Your electric blankets max out around 175 watts or 350 total, so you have way more capacity. The circuit can be run with #14 Romex which is rated for 15 amps or 1800 Watts....you meet NEC and RVIA code...  

Just a thought....should not be a large job. IF you do have a "plug in only" outlet in the bedroom, the electrician (this does NOT require a MH Tech) might be able to find a suitable spot for a Junction Box and run the circuit there and it would be the same one you "used" to have....only it would not support a device over 600 watts or 5 Amps AC.

Just a suggestion....you have to decide on cost versus benefit....  

 

[Bill C]

Thanks for the input Tom.

[waterskier_1]

Tom has done a good job outlining a couple solutions.  As previously mentioned, electric blankets/ heating pads and electronic coffee makers (i.e., Keurig in particular) are extremely sensitive to MSW. But I have to ask, are you intending to use these appliances off the inverter?  These electric heat generating units take a lot of power from the batteries, and many boondockers will intentionally not use them when on the inverter.  Heavy blankets or comforter are an option.  Also running the generator to when making coffee which also allows for charging the batteries might work too.  But the main reason I ask is that many people are having this issue unintentionally.  That is, they are not intending to operate the appliance on the inverter, but left it plugged in, and when Shore power was removed, the inverter took over and caused the damage.  This can be minimized by a careful check before unplugging from shore power, or before turning off the generator. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by waterskier_1

[Dr4Film]

There are six devices we may use at times which we will never operate on Inverter/battery power.

They are the microwave, coffee maker, toaster, hair dryer, shop vacuum and portable air compressor. We will ALWAYS start up the generator when using any of these six devices when not on shore power.

I have two devices plugged into a Non-Inverter powered outlet near the driver's side console. They are the remote control for the Onan EC-30W Auto-Generator Start and the remote control base for the swag lamp over the dining table which I can turn on/off with the remote control switch. The Onan EC-30W needs to see when shore power has been severed to activate the generator and the remote control base is one device that doesn't like MSW power.

[waterskier_1]

I'll operate my microwave for short period of time (less than a couple minutes) during the day, when I have 1400 Watts of solar feeding it.  In this case it's more of how long does it take to replenish the energy consumed at a later time, versus will it be destroyed.  I've never heard of a microwave being damaged simply by MSW, and I'm sure they were intended to be used off the inverter since many have a dedicated inverter circuit specifically for the microwave.  I would not run it after dark though, when I was using battery power, because I'd likely have to run the generator to replenish the batteries before bedtime if I did...in which case I'd just run the generator when I needed the microwave.

 

[Dr4Film]

The original Sharp microwave installed in our coach, model 1850A, would always "groan" when we accidentally forgot to turn on the generator. It sounded normal once the generator was powered up. It was for that reason we started using the generator always when using the microwave.

And yes there have been some owners over the years I have been a member that consistently have used their microwave on Inverter/Battery power that for whatever reason have had to replace their microwaves prematurely. I replaced mine not for any major failure but the keypad was getting flaky to use. I could have gotten a new keypad but it was easier just to replace it with the new Sharp model 1874SS since the place where I found the 1874SS was not that much more than the cost of the keypad. Definitely a win-win since it had to be removed anyway.