Engine starter solenoid fails if plugged in to pedestal

[cpat_39]

Our coach is 2000 Monaco Diplomat 36DS with ISC 315 Cummins. Basically stock with exception of new vinyl floor, LED headlights and taillights. Still has original transfer switch and Legacy inverter/charger. Both chassis and house batteries are about 2 years old. Chassis batteries test in 12.4-.5 range with load tester.

Reason for submission is in last 18 months we have had to replace engine starter 4 times always with new units, not rebuilt. The only commonality I can determine is that we were always plugged into 30 or 50 amp pedestals. I do have a built-in Progressive unit between incoming power line and transfer switch. Between starter failures the rig maybe started not plugged into pedestal 5 or 6 times by storage facility staff to move the coach. Always starts.

What has failed each time is the solenoid on starter. This last time truck shop found the White Rogers contractor closed. He did replace along with starter.

Why do I leave plugged in? Always lower coach on air bags. Start engine to build up air pressure and raise coach to ride height This enables me to more easily load chairs, table, etc into bays. Maybe several hours before we leave so I have left rig plugged into shore power until ready to leave. Typically it will start to air up, but fails on second start to leave.

Ok, so easy solution is to unplug when airing up and unplug when ready to leave.

But I am curious as what could be issue causing failure of starter solenoid when plugged into pedestal? Power in house seems normal running microwave, maybe heater, water heater and TV.

Do Transfer Switches and/or Inverter/Chargers randomly fail? I am not an engineer or technician. Have a fair grounding in lay electrical. Any suggestions welcome. Thank you.

 

Pat
2000 Monaco Diplomat built at HR in IN
2014 Honda CRV

[John Haggard]

So why do you think being plugged in has Anyting to do with your starter ???

Starter solenoid???

 

Mine has been plugged in continuously since new in 99.

125,000 miles

Original Starter.

 

Low voltage on your chassis battery can burn up a starter but ???

Not likely your issue.

 

A good trick mechanic should be able to troubleshoot low voltage or other issues that kill your starter.

If your realy killing them.

I question your issues all together. ???

 

[cpat_39]

 All 4 starter solenoids have been tested by each mechanic as bad. Cummins factory also tested first solenoid and agreed it had failed.

Not sure what continuous plug in since 1999 has to do with the issue. 

As discussed chassis batteries have always checked out at 12.4-12.5

First and fourth replacements were by professional truck shop mechanics. two and three were by professional mobile mechanics. 

I am just search for possible reasons for failures of the starter solenoids. Maybe not the Transfer/Switch or Inverter/Charger. Last mechanic check ignition switch at dash. Just tired of waiting for jump starts, mobile mechanics and in last chase a tow truck. Also tired of several hundred dollar expense each time.

Pat

[John Haggard]

1 hour ago, cpat_39 said:

 All 4 starter solenoids have been tested by each mechanic as bad. Cummins factory also tested first solenoid and agreed it had failed.

Not sure what continuous plug in since 1999 has to do with the issue. 

As discussed chassis batteries have always checked out at 12.4-12.5

First and fourth replacements were by professional truck shop mechanics. two and three were by professional mobile mechanics. 

I am just search for possible reasons for failures of the starter solenoids. Maybe not the Transfer/Switch or Inverter/Charger. Last mechanic check ignition switch at dash. Just tired of waiting for jump starts, mobile mechanics and in last chase a tow truck. Also tired of several hundred dollar expense each time.

Pat

Sorry

The way I read your post.

You appear to question having your unit plugged in.

Maybe as a negative. 

It should never be a negative nor the airbag comment?

Just trying to understand your dilemma 🙃

 

[Hypoxia]

What style relay is it?  Some are continuous duty some intermittent duty.  Some are tower relays etc.  You could switch to a different style just to see what happens.  I would be talking to a guy that rebuilds starters at an auto electric shop, not the parts changer at a diesel shop.

Relays

[cpat_39]

Here is picture of failed relay that found at truck repAir in Stockton. It was only found to be failed on last starter replacement. Contractor is 100 amp normally open.  Trying to talk in detail with most RV and truck shops today is very difficult in NorCal. They are all short of techs and repair commitments are minimum of 3 weeks out.  Coach is local RV shop with a potential return date of 6/9/21.
I thought maybe one of forum members might have experienced similar issue. 

[John Haggard]

10 minutes ago, cpat_39 said:

Here is picture of failed relay that found at truck repAir in Stockton. It was only found to be failed on last starter replacement. Contractor is 100 amp normally open.  Trying to talk in detail with most RV and truck shops today is very difficult in NorCal. They are all short of techs and repair commitments are minimum of 3 weeks out.  Coach is local RV shop with a potential return date of 6/9/21.
I thought maybe one of forum members might have experienced similar issue. 

Something isn't right 🤔

Your creating massive Heat. 

 

Ground

Shorted out wire

Something 

If it's that hot and that obvious 

They should be able to diagnose the problem 🙄

[cpat_39]

John, I agree they should be able to diagnose problem. All they want to do is get your started and on the road. Believe me I have talked and shown issue to many mechanics and RV owners. Thanks for reaching out.

Pat

[Ivylog]

That $15 solenoid is only 80 amps continuous and maybe 500A for a second... it’s not a starter solenoid. I bought one as a possible Big Boy replacement and it’s not even good enough for that.

A diesel starter solenoid is on the starter and the above is actually bigger than what you need between the key switch and the 1000A starter solenoid.

Below is a picture of your starter and solenoid. Your + battery cable goes straight to the brass lug at the bottom. A small wire (15 amps max) from the key relay plugs into the black plastic connector on the side.  Assuming the $15 solenoid is between the key and the starter, it obviously (after 4) a PoS. I would try something like the last picture.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Ivylog

[Dennis H]

I agree with Ivylog. It appears your first replacement was with the wrong solenoid and others simply followed suit replacing the wrong solenoid with another wrong solenoid. I'd start by researching the correct starter solenoid and go from there.....sorry, I don't have the correct part number. Perhaps it's in your paperwork somewhere or you could try calling Monaco Monday.....Dennis

[cpat_39]

Well aware that the starter has a solenoid built into it. And that is what has failed repeatedly. The contractor I show in picture I believe is actuated by the ignition switch to past thru the higher current needed to start the engine. The photo is the original device provided by Monaco in building the coach. New picture shows location where contractor was located by Monaco. Also now showing the Delco Remy 29MT starter used on my ISC. The failed starter solenoids the larger of two items mounted on top of starter. 

What I am looking for is what is causing the solenoid mounted to starter to repeatedly fail. Maybe the contractor was intermittently failing and now that it is replaced my issues are over. One can only hope. 

If you have never worked with or on a Diplomat they seem to be significantly different in wiring than Windsors and on up the model chain. Very basic, so what I really need is a Diplomat owner that may have encountered a similar issue. 

The contractor that ignition switch actuates has only been replaced once. That was the most recent starter failure. It is the same value and mounting as original White Rodgers part provided by Monaco. The Delco Remy starter has the actual starter solenoid built into it and is not a rebuildable item. 

[Ivylog]

“Well aware that the starter has a solenoid built into it. And that is what has failed repeatedly.” 
Didn’t help posting “Here is picture of failed relay” that is not a starter solenoid. 
Have no idea why you’re having problems although I do not believe it’s  related to being plugged in. 
I used to rebuild 40MT solenoids (still have new contacts and disks... same as what’s in a Big Boy) on equipment that got started several times a day but maybe after 10 years or 10,000 starts.

What is failing in the solenoid, Is it the coil burning up?

Edited May 17, 2021 by Ivylog

[cpat_39]

Per Delco Remy and other sites nothing in their starter including that solenoid is rebuildable. The picture I posted is a contactor not a solenoid. Failing solenoid is one mounted on the starter. Thank you for comment that is not related to being plugged in. 

[Ivylog]

Didn’t say your solenoid was rebuildable. My point was a starter solenoid should last thousand of hours and as a side note, a Big Boy uses the same contacts as a 40MT solenoid. Buy one and take the contacts out if needed to rebuild a Big Boy.

And a side,side note: had hoped I could use a $35 40MT solenoid to replace a $180 Big Boy BUT it draws 10+ amps to engage which is more than the BIRD can supply... won’t work as a replacement.

So, back to your solenoid, did it fail because it didn’t engage (burnt coil) or because it didn’t make a electrical connection (bad contacts)?

[glang11082]

On 5/16/2021 at 3:52 PM, cpat_39 said:

Our coach is 2000 Monaco Diplomat 36DS with ISC 315 Cummins. Basically stock with exception of new vinyl floor, LED headlights and taillights. Still has original transfer switch and Legacy inverter/charger. Both chassis and house batteries are about 2 years old. Chassis batteries test in 12.4-.5 range with load tester.

Reason for submission is in last 18 months we have had to replace engine starter 4 times always with new units, not rebuilt. The only commonality I can determine is that we were always plugged into 30 or 50 amp pedestals. I do have a built-in Progressive unit between incoming power line and transfer switch. Between starter failures the rig maybe started not plugged into pedestal 5 or 6 times by storage facility staff to move the coach. Always starts.

What has failed each time is the solenoid on starter. This last time truck shop found the White Rogers contractor closed. He did replace along with starter.

Why do I leave plugged in? Always lower coach on air bags. Start engine to build up air pressure and raise coach to ride height This enables me to more easily load chairs, table, etc into bays. Maybe several hours before we leave so I have left rig plugged into shore power until ready to leave. Typically it will start to air up, but fails on second start to leave.

Ok, so easy solution is to unplug when airing up and unplug when ready to leave.

But I am curious as what could be issue causing failure of starter solenoid when plugged into pedestal? Power in house seems normal running microwave, maybe heater, water heater and TV.

Do Transfer Switches and/or Inverter/Chargers randomly fail? I am not an engineer or technician. Have a fair grounding in lay electrical. Any suggestions welcome. Thank you.

 

Pat
2000 Monaco Diplomat built at HR in IN
2014 Honda CRV

Pat you need a continuous duty solenoid  around  200amp. looks like the one in your picture is not continuous duty but intermittent duty so if left energized it will quickly burn up the coil.   

Pat you need a continuous duty solenoid  around  200amp. looks like the one in your picture is not continuous duty but intermittent duty so if left energized it will quickly burn up the coil. 

[Ivan K]

The contactor you show is the same as on my zero turn mower. Good for a little gas engine starter. The pic below shows what Monaco installed in the coach and been working fine.

[veraken]

This is the contactor I purchased.  It's rated at 225 amps and is continuous duty.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007W2NBAU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[cpat_39]

The contactor in the picture I submitted was in the coach when I bought it in 2011 and served for 9 years. Please that the label says "cont" and when I search on that part number several sites point out it is continuous duty.

Also trying to get answers confirming correct Denso starter for my ISC 315. So far neither of two eBay vendors have responded. 

Thank you for all the replies. 

Pat

 

[John Haggard]

22 minutes ago, cpat_39 said:

The contactor in the picture I submitted was in the coach when I bought it in 2011 and served for 9 years. Please that the label says "cont" and when I search on that part number several sites point out it is continuous duty.

Also trying to get answers confirming correct Denso starter for my ISC 315. So far neither of two eBay vendors have responded. 

Thank you for all the replies. 

Pat

 

Pull your starter and count the gear teeth. 

Then Google gear reduction starts with that number teeth.

Common in diesel pickup trucks.

Several great brands to choose from for your engine.

$200 to $300. Range.

[Ivan K]

John is right if your existing starter is correct. Also, if you had an account with cummins, you can cross-reference the OEM number if you prefer aftermarket. 

https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html

[Ivylog]

I come up with a Denso 228000-5310... $118

https://www.amazon.com/1995-2005-228000-5310-228000-5311-228000-5902-2509687C91/dp/B01N9EC1WO/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=denso+Denso+228000-5310&qid=1621298911&sr=8-3

Applications:
Bluebird truck all models (by engine) Cummins ISC denso with 
Thomas Built mvp-ef Cummins 6C STD dry clutch system . 4.0 kW with dry clutch 
Thomas Built mvp-ef Cummins ISC STD. 4.0 kW with dry clutch 
Thomas Built TL960 Cummins 6 C STD. 4.0 kW with 
Thomas Built Type D dry clutch - saf-t-liner-er Cummins 6 CG STD. 4.0 kW with 
Thomas Built Type D dry clutch - saf-t-liner-er Cummins ISC STD. 4.0 kW with 
Thomas Built Type D dry clutch - saf-t-liner-hdx Cummins ISC STD. 4.0 kW

Edited May 18, 2021 by Ivylog

[bertnovak]

I believe you have wiring problem at the small relay connected to the ignition switch or in the battery box. Probably supplying 24V to the starter(Large) solenoid. Burns out the coil of the solenoid. The starter windings can take the overload. 

When starting and plugged into shore power the charger is still  putting energy into the system.

 

[W7BE_Bob]

4 failed starters doesn't pass the smell test. Some far out thoughts:

You have a cable problem and not a starter problem. Replacing the starter involves removing cables. Replacing the starter moves the cables and hence it was clearly a starter problem? Unseen corrosion especially near a battery can occur under the insulation. When the failure occurs have you tried jumping directly to the starter? It could also be the wiring that activates the starter solenoid. Replace the battery to starter cable, battery to frame grouud cable and engine block to frame ground cable.

You replaced the batteries 2 years ago - did the problem start after that? Just wondering. Correct battery installed?

What does 12.4V load test mean? Starting draws a lot of amps and the battery will drop well below 12.0V. The purpose of a starting  battery load test is to simulate the start. Have a good battery store check the battery and that’s not a auto store. 

Does your charger charge the chassis battery as built? Some do some don't. Or has it been modified? Just hard to imagine that being plugged in is related but thought I’d ask.

Don't let storage people start the MH without you. Why? Because you are clueless about what they did/encountered which might be a clue to help diagnose. RVs have loads that can't be turned off, hence the battery discharges. It might be hard to start or they might jump it. Have your eyes and ears on the start. 

 

[Terry T]

After re reading this twice, my initial thought and current thoughts are the same. I never agree with anyone, but, i’m in total agreement with Bob. Cable bad or undersized, somewhere between battery and starter. The other choice, a bad ground.

 

terry t

[bertnovak]

You are  free to agree or not but please measure the voltage being supplied to the solenoid and the starter when trying to start the engine. A bad ground to the engine block will show a a very low voltage to the starter when trying to start. If you see 24 v at the solenoid or starter you have a wiring issue probably at the battery. I have seen 12v batteries connected in series for the starter (24v) not uncommon for heavy equipment but not in motor homes. Are you SHURE the Starting batteries are not connected in series when they were replaced?