EasyStarts on Original 2004 ACs?

[cbr046]

I did install 2 SoftStarts on our 2002 original AC units.  If they have an early demise I'll uninstall them for the next units.

- bob

[Les Hurdle]

Hope I haven't missed something in all the posts.

Bought my 2004 Cheetah a few weeks back.

A/c in bedroom is ok.

A/c in living area did 'appear' to work [heard a 'tinkle'].............. now the fan runs ok, I hear what I presume is the unit trying to kick in [a grumble on the roof] but it doesn't quite make it............ easy fix or new unit?

Les 

[Ivan K]

Since it appears to at least try, I would measure and if needed, replace the capacitor but can't tell you which one in your unit. If you can, measure the current when it attempts to start the compressor. There should be a locked rotor amp (LRA) value in your specs that if reached or crossed with a good capacitor, would indicate a bad compressor motor. All assuming you get good uninterrupted power to the unit, like no shedding somewhere.

[Les Hurdle]

on my old Southwind shedding was shown but I do not see anywhere where shedding is indicated on a panel in the Cheetah ??

 

Thanks for the help

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Les Hurdle said:

Hope I haven't missed something in all the posts.

Bought my 2004 Cheetah a few weeks back.

A/c in bedroom is ok.

A/c in living area did 'appear' to work [heard a 'tinkle'].............. now the fan runs ok, I hear what I presume is the unit trying to kick in [a grumble on the roof] but it doesn't quite make it............ easy fix or new unit?

Les 

Les, you had a topic in Late April about issues.  We need to have some feedback.  Did you get your zones working?  
 

for the sake of clarity, please give us the status of the recommendations that several posted there…

Your thermostat, if i recall, had been opened and “messed with” as it was siliconed shut.

Then catch us up.  Does your manual have a section on House Electrical?  Then read and verify that you do or don’t have shedding….

there may be some options or suggestions, , but without the total picture, real help can’t be offered….

Thanks.

[Les Hurdle]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm 80 years of age.  Still working 10 hours per day in the music biz as a composer/producer and read all that I can.

Maybe I didn't read all of the instructions when I joined what I thought was a lighthearted group dealing with RV issues.

I'm not of the corporate nor military mindset and did not realise I was to write a report.

I do thank people when they helped.

Might I add a request of the good Monacoers folk.  I am not a mechanic and most of the acronyms used mean nothing... spell it out please.

So I apologize if I am unable to comply fully, but if I am such a terror then perhaps you should remove me..

Yes the manual does have a House Electrical section, yes I had read it, as far as I can see in the picture as per operating today shedding is not a concern.

The picture in the manual is not quite the same as that which is on the wall.

The picture on the wall shows running with both a/c units engaged [one providing fan only but attempts to engage]

A friend may have the answer with regard to capacitors and as mentioned on a forum, easy starts.

When I get time I'll investigate.

 

Thanks again

 

Les

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, Les Hurdle said:

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm 80 years of age.  Still working 10 hours per day in the music biz as a composer/producer and read all that I can.

Maybe I didn't read all of the instructions when I joined what I thought was a lighthearted group dealing with RV issues.

I'm not of the corporate nor military mindset and did not realise I was to write a report.

I do thank people when they helped.

Might I add a request of the good Monacoers folk.  I am not a mechanic and most of the acronyms used mean nothing... spell it out please.

So I apologize if I am unable to comply fully, but if I am such a terror then perhaps you should remove me..

Yes the manual does have a House Electrical section, yes I had read it, as far as I can see in the picture as per operating today shedding is not a concern.

The picture in the manual is not quite the same as that which is on the wall.

The picture on the wall shows running with both a/c units engaged [one providing fan only but attempts to engage]

A friend may have the answer with regard to capacitors and as mentioned on a forum, easy starts.

When I get time I'll investigate.

 

Thanks again

 

Les

 

 

Les,

You are not on report or being summarily discharged.  I have sent you a PM as the explanations and such have been gone over before and I also gave you some background to help you understand the seemingly simple answers to your complex issues.

SO....read it.  I also left a Voice Mail so you can call if you want to review or such.

Bottom line....

You DO have a Load Shedding system.

I don't think that is the issue....but gave you a couple of things to look at.

You probably have a dying unit....or maybe a bad capacitor...but without the proper meter and knowledge, you will probably have to get it looked at.

I also outlined some of the issues with pouring money into 20 year old (almost) AC's and what I advised another member with a similar issue when replacing a capacitor didn't work.

Read it and then get back to me or do some more investigation...

BTW.....I am only 3 years behind you.  As Jimmy Buffett tweeted this morning.... Growing old AIN't for sissies....and like you, I spend many hours per day here and such....as well as my PT routine to rehab my shoulder muscles and get my new joint moving like it ought to...and my wife is having a knee replacement, so I have to be at full strength to help her rehab and "encourage her" to do her PT....and THAT is a full time job...

LOL....One of these days. when we speak, I want to understand more about what you do....as I worked as a camera man and audio control (sound man) and also ran master control at a TV station....now I only do the A/V work for livestreaming our morning worship....and that is a hoot....compared to what I did 60 odd years ago...

Hang in there....

[Les Hurdle]

OK THANK Tom.

All around advice seems to be to get the caps checked first.

Previous owner said it did work and I believe it did.

I do not have a voicemail?

Few tech round here want to 'work'....... buy a new one ;-))

This is a small % of what I did decades ago. http://musiciansolympus.blogspot.com/2009/12/leshurdle-bass.html

Loads for Tom Jones, Humperdinck, etc etc  

These days I write underscore music for Film & TV/Jingles etc........... where is that money !!

 

Les

 

[96 EVO]

1 hour ago, Les Hurdle said:

 

All around advice seems to be to get the caps checked first.

 

 

That would be my advice!

[Newcsn]

On 4/28/2023 at 8:48 AM, Tom Cherry said:

My rule in an inflationary economy….buy it today….it will cost more and it is tough to invest your money and get it to grow faster than today’s inflation rate.

@Tom Cherry Always love your detailed & practical responses! I totally agree with your “do it all at once” approach. What makes the “investment” a bit more painful is when you have 3 of those beauties up on your roof & you’re installing 2 of the new thermostats!!! OUCH!

Question: If a guy takes the leap & upgrades all three, is there really any need to add soft starts if you only use 50 amp service (can’t tell you the last time we were hooked to 30 amp) or runs off the 10KW generator?

Oh, this will be a DIY project! I’ll at least save on the labor costs! Thanks

[Les Hurdle]

Had a long chat with Tom yesterday.. very helpful, thanks

My 2004 Cheetah is where my wife and I live, up a mountain at 5,000' while the house is fixed up.  It is partially covered by a 'shed'.

The rear a/c is working ok and [as Tm suggested] with a fan in the front blowing air to the back, the coach is very cold 😉

Will have to bite the bullet re new equip but in a month or few.

Les

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Newcsn said:

@Tom Cherry Always love your detailed & practical responses! I totally agree with your “do it all at once” approach. What makes the “investment” a bit more painful is when you have 3 of those beauties up on your roof & you’re installing 2 of the new thermostats!!! OUCH!

Question: If a guy takes the leap & upgrades all three, is there really any need to add soft starts if you only use 50 amp service (can’t tell you the last time we were hooked to 30 amp) or runs off the 10KW generator?

Oh, this will be a DIY project! I’ll at least save on the labor costs! Thanks

I have had the same question.  It would seem that one benefit....how much of value....I don't know....is that the spike in the starting amps would always be less.  Thus, if you were on the critical edge of popping a CB, then that would be reduced.  

But, as to the longevity of the system(s)....don't know and I could not get back into Microair's tech support to ask them that exact question.  It would be, DIY, around $1000....and.  SO, going out on a limb here.  DIY pricing for the a 15KW, shipped in with tax maybe, $1800 or a smidge more.  So, that would mean you would need to get 16% more or an additional (assuming 20 year life as many are...or maybe a little less) 3 years of service.  The special capacitors do NOT impact the actual running....as you know.

OK....since one has to read and understand the legal requirements today....my gut answer is NO.....or it can NOT be measured or proven or "claimed"

From SoftStartRV website..... I'll take that as a "We tried....but there was NO WAY we could, even in our most insane attempts, even come close to any true and meaningful scientific and engineering manner....even come close to saying.....THESE EXTEND LIFE...  NOW....Others may differ....   OK....Scotty Hutto was, I think, in a former life, an HVAC Engineer.  SO... @Scotty Hutto Can you chime in based on my following comment... 

The other thing, from a practical matter....I have not seen nor am I familiar with a soft start on a home system.  It is the el cheapo deluxe $15 can capacitor....and I know that most HVAC trucks carry them by the box full.  SO... I am skeptical and don't think that $1000 or so for an install, especially based on the age or most of our MH's is a good investment....

Reduces Starting Amps

A soft start significantly reduces starting amps during the initial run of an RV air conditioner. When the compressor and fan motors turn on, they draw a large surge of current that can become costly over time and tax electric systems. By reducing the amount of current draw, soft starts help lower the wear and tear on electrical components, extend the longevity of both components, as well as potentially reduce utility costs. However, some argue that running at maximum amperage for a brief period of time will not cause any real harm to the electrical system, so a soft start may not be necessary.

 

1 hour ago, Les Hurdle said:

Had a long chat with Tom yesterday.. very helpful, thanks

My 2004 Cheetah is where my wife and I live, up a mountain at 5,000' while the house is fixed up.  It is partially covered by a 'shed'.

The rear a/c is working ok and [as Tm suggested] with a fan in the front blowing air to the back, the coach is very cold 😉

Will have to bite the bullet re new equip but in a month or few.

Les

 

Cool.  Keep the Rear running....keep the front fan on recirculate...you were pressed for time....but ONE of the ducts in your system actually runs full length...

Therefore, you will get cool air from the rear unit....in the front.  Maybe turn off ONE or the rear most vent on that run....NO MORE.  Whereever the shower is....that duct is in two sections....where the other one is full length. Turn the front AC OFF.  Turn on the fan in the rear and then do a "hand test" for moving air.  Odds are, you will feel some soft air movement on the opposite side (not the Shower Side).  You may have to use a tissue as a wind vane to verify the air....but it is there.

Cutting off the rear outlet in the bedroom on that side would increase the static pressure and air flow up front.  BUT, if you did 2, then you might have a restriction. 

Use a 12 - 14" table oscillating fan on a countertop or even on the floor behind one of the front seats to stir it up. 

Wock & Womble on, my friend....LOL....

[Newcsn]

23 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

So, that would mean you would need to get 16% more or an additional (assuming 20 year life as many are...or maybe a little less) 3 years of service.

@Tom Cherry We’re not thinking we’ll have the coach for another 20 years - we may not even be alive! I’m not thinking the additional $1000 for soft starts is justified.

It would be nice if someone designed a cost effective & discrete mini-split system for these beasts! Thanks again!

[Scotty Hutto]

Yes, soft starts are available for home systems and larger commercial systems. They are also used on a lot of large motors for industrial processes. In industrial processes it typically has a lot to do with the capacity and protection of the plant electrical system. Those same things apply to a motorhome HVAC system.

They do reduce the initial draw of starting current (LRA, or locked rotor amps), which allows a ramp-up of current rather than an initial “spike”. This allows an HVAC System with RLA (running load amps) of 13-14 amps to run on a circuit designed for 15/20 amps. 

In theory, this reduces stress on multiple components.  Think of it as starting off gently from a stop sign rather than flooring your Corvette each time you come to a stop. We know intuitively that’s better for the car, but trying to quantify it?  No way. 

The most prevalent failure mode for an electric motor is failure of the insulation in the motor windings. This typically occurs at start-up, when the surge of starting current stresses (tests?) the insulation. Failure occurs when the insulation fails and the motor windings short out (the “Magic smoke” and what you smell is the insulation burning.) So logic leads us to understand that reducing start-up current will extend the life of a motor. How much? That’s virtually impossible to quantify, because failure of electric motors is difficult to predict. 

As far as mini-splits for RVs, Bill Groves and I started working on a design for that about three years ago (I’m a ME with HVAC experience, and Bill was both an ME and an EE with electrical and electronics experience). We couldn’t understand why no one makes then, especially with the proliferation of lithium batteries and solar for boondocking. Unfortunately, Bill ( obviously the brains of the operation) passed away about two years ago, and I dropped the project. Maybe someone will take up that torch…

[Ivan K]

I would not bother installing the softstarts if I was always on 50A source. The reason I bought it was for my 'AC on wheels', a spot cooler in the shop because when starting, it would often trip a breaker with other equipment already running. Eventually I replaced its compressor and did not need it anymore. My understanding always was that the RV type small softstart was intended to allow very small generators, like the 2kw Hondas, to run an AC unit in trailers. As a side effect, it allows a second AC unit to run on good 30A source. That's what I have it for, in the center unit only. I set the front or rear so that it never shuts off and have the center cycling with no problem. A lot of our state parks have 30A hookup only. It cost me $175 from a marine store so not a big expense but it takes some cutting and joining wires on the roof.

[Les Hurdle]

Sorry folks, inside joke, once a Womble always so..............  I'll try the air movement idea later today if log splitting allows.

THNX

 

Les

 

[Gary Cole]

4 hours ago, Scotty Hutto said:

How much? That’s virtually impossible to quantify, because failure of electric motors is difficult to predict. 

I agree. The high amp start surge is brief. Particularly if the motor starts unloaded which is the case with a refrigeration compressor. The brief heat generated is absorbed and dissipated by the motor's mass in a well designed system and has less of an impact on windings than voltage spikes which occur for a number of reasons.  And hermetic compressors are very well designed as shown by their trouble free long life. Soft starts seem over priced for what you get and the vendors seem to be overselling some benefits. I noticed they don't provide any hard data on certain implied benefits.  One can now buy a VFD for less which has hundreds of fun programable functions including soft start, delay, torque management, current management, power and speed control, digital and analog I/O, the list goes on. My choice without a doubt if I wanted to play around with reduced load starting with the option of load management.  Most drives have more than a 1000 programmable parameters and functions. There is a phenomenon called conductor ringing which produces high voltage spikes at long conductor lengths. The reason for inverter rated motors. Not a problem under 100' or so.

Need to consider minimum rpm necessary for compressor oiling for anyone who might do something like this. 

A VFD will not produce more voltage than supply voltage to the DC bus however it can reduce motor speed using frequency control in the case of low voltage. Something to consider for low voltage park problems?

Edited May 20, 2023 by Gary Cole