2007 Endeavor Hydraulic Fluid Mysteries - FINAL RESOLUTION

[Gweedo]

Hello all trying to replace power steering filter. Looked under tip but it’s different. HD. Center bolt and level check. Tried pulling up on the lid, nothing. Tap gently with hammer nothing. Don’t know if this ever been off. Notice a bit of jerking on the wheel. Fluid is low.    Anyone take this lid off before?  

[klcdenver]

The filter is down in the bottom of the canister that you took the lid off. It will be covered with fluid. 

[Gweedo]

How do I get the lid off??   
 

I’m assuming it just pops up but it’s stuck on pretty good.  
 

I got it off thnx

[Guest Ray Davis]

I can't tell from your picture if yours has a clamp, like mine does.   What holds your lid on?   Here's a picture of the clamp, after removing it my lid lifts/pops off.

Edit,  I would reinstall the plugs in the holes on top and wash the sand, etc. from the area.   You sure don't want to take a chance of it getting inside the system.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ray Davis

[Gweedo]

Thnx. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, Gweedo said:

I got it off thnx

Sorry, I started my post before going back & seeing yours.

[Gweedo]

I appreciate the response.  Now just trying to figure which oil goes in. Definitely not dextron in there.  

Sent an email off to rev group 

 

[Gweedo]

Rev group got back to me quick, calls for 15-40.  They sent a pdf I’ll attach for all 2007 models with all lube points n maintenance charts. 

2007 Roadmaster Lube Guide.pdf

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, Gweedo said:

Rev group got back to me quick, calls for 15-40.  They sent a pdf I’ll attach for all 2007 models with all lube points n maintenance charts. 

2007 Roadmaster Lube Guide.pdf 7.98 MB · 6 downloads

Gweedo, @Gweedo

As one who has been there.  REV DON'T KNOW DIDDLY SQUAT.  Believe it or not...and I have spent a LOT of time on the phone during the early years with the REAL Monaco Techs.  What is in the manual may NOT be Gospel.  My MANUAL said ATF for the Hydraulic.  OK...Bought a 5 gallon pail of the Texaco AW46.  NOPE, When I popped the cap on the Nelson reservoir....it was PURE ATF.  Called Monaco Tech Support.  There were only 3 of them.  Jim seems to be the most knowledgeable.  Jim's RESPONSE.  The manuals are CRAP.  The idiots that write them stay in their cubicles and don't get down on the floor....SO THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING and the manuals are full of misprints, copy and pastes and downright WRONG information.  

Now, being an old Ford Q-1 Engineering Manager and knowing how REAL Manufacturing Engineering works, I started to say.  Jim, why don't the folks on the floor and the supervisors and the workers MILTP...Make It Like The Print.  BUT, I held my tongue.

He went on to say that Monaco switched over to ALL ATF circa 2006/7.  WELL NOW, I know MANY folks with the TRW Steering Sectors in their 2008 Dynasty.  One is an Ex Exxon-Mobil Chemist.  HIGH RANKING.  If he says his fluid is HYDRAULIC FLUID...even though Jim said that all MONACO's after 2006/7 were ATF, then I trust him.  He did the COLOR analysis.  His was STRAW/YELLOW/TAN.  Might was a clear shade of RED.  If yours is NOT a distinct RED, easily discernable assuming no color blindness issues...then it is PROBABLY AW46.  NOW, if it has some TINGES of Red in it...the the PO, mixed.

Based on my conversations with the Pump vendor and TRW, if it is ATF....then add TRANSYND....That is the BEST.  But, if is PURE Yellow....the stick with AW46.  BUT, if is some combination or mixture, then you can either DRAIN the entire system...or drain the reservoir and add Transynd.  You CAN MIX, per Pump and TRW, ATF (recommend Transynd) with the AW 46.  BUT, going the OTHER way is NOT recommended.

That is a fact.  And REV has NO idea what Navistar did nor even the faintest as to what Monaco DID.  Take that to the bank...

[Gweedo]

Thnx Tom, I read numerous threads on this, they are all over the board, atf, hydraulic and oil,  which why I called the Rev group.  The person I spoke with furnished me the pdf which calls for 15-40 oil.  Now, when I opened the canister and removed the filter, my first thought was, it's regular oil, and smelled like oil and  that was before Rev grp responded.  One of the tech's there also worked for Roadmaster back then and remembered it being oil.   So I was comfortable toping it off with the 15-40, probably about 5-6 ounces.  I let it run for a bit and no noise or leaks.

Below is the email I received...

According to the attached (see pages 14-15 for the Endeavor) – this would have 15W40 engine oil in the hydraulic fluid reservoir.  I did confirm this with one of our technicians who used to work in the Roadmaster plant back then.

Hopefully that helps!

Best Regards,

 Denise Tucker

Senior Administrative Specialist

REV Recreation Group

 

PRIOR TO JUNE 2009, THE AMERICAN®, FLEETWOOD®, MONACO®, HOLIDAY RAMBLER®, BEAVER®, SAFARI®, McKENZIE®, AND R-VISION® BRANDS OF RECREATIONAL VEHICLES AND THE ROADMASTER® AND MAGNUM® BRANDS OF CHASSIS WERE OWNED AND MANUFACTURED BY OTHERS. FOR CONVENIENCE, WE MAY OCCASIONALLY PROVIDE PRODUCT BROCHURES OR OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT THESE OLDER PRODUCTS THAT WE ACQUIRED FROM THE FORMER MANUFACTURERS. THESE DOCUMENTS ARE NOT UPDATED, APPROVED, OR MAINTAINED BY REV RECREATION GROUP. THEY MAY CONTAIN MISTAKES OR BE INCOMPLETE.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Gweedo
mis quote

[Guest Ray Davis]

Bill D ( RIP ) our founder talked about 15-40 oil being in the hydraulic system for a while and that they stopped due to problems in cold climates.  I believe the pressures could go too high and blow a hose.  So they went back to AW46 and ATF.

Some people are horrified about mixing oils and some aren't bothered by it.  Personally,  I can't believe what you added could cause a problem.     JMHO

When I changed my hydraulic pump I placed a big pan under the steering gearbox so that virtually all of the oil could drain.  Mine was red so I replaced it with ATF.

[Tom Cherry]

8 minutes ago, Gweedo said:

Thnx Tom, I read numerous threads on this, they are all over the board, atf, hydraulic and oil,  which why I called the Rev group.  The person I spoke with furnished me the pdf which calls for 15-40 oil.  Now, when I opened the canister and removed the filter, my first thought was, it's regular oil, and smelled like oil and  that was before Rev grp responded.  One of the tech's there also worked for Monaco back then and remembered it being oil.   So I was comfortable toping it off with the 15-40, probably about 5-6 ounces.  I let it run for a bit and no noise or leaks.

Below is the email I received...

According to the attached (see pages 14-15 for the Endeavor) – this would have 15W40 engine oil in the hydraulic fluid reservoir.  I did confirm this with one of our technicians who used to work in the Roadmaster plant back then.

Hopefully that helps!

Best Regards,

 Denise Tucker

Senior Administrative Specialist

REV Recreation Group

 

PRIOR TO JUNE 2009, THE AMERICAN®, FLEETWOOD®, MONACO®, HOLIDAY RAMBLER®, BEAVER®, SAFARI®, McKENZIE®, AND R-VISION® BRANDS OF RECREATIONAL VEHICLES AND THE ROADMASTER® AND MAGNUM® BRANDS OF CHASSIS WERE OWNED AND MANUFACTURED BY OTHERS. FOR CONVENIENCE, WE MAY OCCASIONALLY PROVIDE PRODUCT BROCHURES OR OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT THESE OLDER PRODUCTS THAT WE ACQUIRED FROM THE FORMER MANUFACTURERS. THESE DOCUMENTS ARE NOT UPDATED, APPROVED, OR MAINTAINED BY REV RECREATION GROUP. THEY MAY CONTAIN MISTAKES OR BE INCOMPLETE.

 

Hard to argue with what you know and suspect.  BUT, the mystery is still a little murky.  The Diplomat has been, per so many folks….who owned either the Endeavor or the Diplomat…twins.  Pull the sales brochures for each.  Identical….same copy all the way through.  Dash and instruments same.  Read the pages describing the various areas as well as the options.  So, “for our purposes” when we try to help folks….the prints are the same….everything is identical.

OK…being a skeptic….pulled both owner’s manuals.  Diplomat says ATF.  “Jim told me…ATF”.  LOL.  But, pull the Endeavor manual.  Yes…right in the copy…15W40 motor oil.   NOW…a plausible explanation….and we have very few “oldsters that went to every show and knew every feature…

It would be interesting to see if your Endeavor was an ELKHART coach.  The Diplomat was an Oregon coach.  There are subtle differences….we have seen where a particular item, like how a water pump circuit was different.

SO…if your coach was Elkhart….then that MIGHT explain it.  I don’t know if you are aware of the warranty issues that lead to the conversion from AW46 to ATF.  The AW46 has unique sub zero viscosity characteristics.  It “expands” when it freezes.  There are many articles and technical papers on failures when used on Arctic and Antarctic  expeditions.  We have had many members that had a failure, usually in the plumbing at the rear oil cooler.  The AW46 fails…expands….and then bulges or cracks components.  Thus, the conversion to ATF.

Pure supposition….but there were 3 factories closed in the fall of 2008 in Elkhart.  1,400 folks were RIF’ed….but they did keep a “chassis” operation there.

SO….my take.  Elkhart used motor oil….while Coburg switched to ATF.  The “TWINS” manuals are different.  So, we all learn.  If it walks like, quacks like, looks like….then it is a ….LOL.

I have read just about every post and email on the old Yahoo site and most here, except for a 9 month period recovering from a broken leg.  i have seen the debate.  The “white paper towel” test, told to us my Monaco Tech Support was to let a few drops land on the paper towel.  Instant identification.  NOW, we know that there was ANOTHER oil used….how many models?  Would have to read the HR manuals….and check the service recommendations.  The same Nelson housing and filters were used…but Coburg used AW46 and ATF.  Your rig says 15-W40 or “motor oil”.

Now we know….always learning….and what we think we know, Monaco undercut and was never consistent….on that you can depend.

Good luck…service it.  Drain the reservoid (pump it out)…replenish and then forget doing that for several years…

[96 EVO]

Quite possible they filled your system with engine oil since your Endevour didn't come with the TRW steering box ( they require ATF).

Like Tom, my manual says mine was filled at the factory with hyd fluid, but I'm reasonably sure it was actually filled with ATF.

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Quite possible they filled your system with engine oil since your Endevour didn't come with the TRW steering box ( they require ATF).

Like Tom, my manual says mine was filled at the factory with hyd fluid, but I'm reasonably sure it was actually filled with ATF.

I think it goes beyond possibility….to fact.  As I said, over the years, there were only 2 fluids….Ray’s recollection of the Colonel’s comments not withstanding.  I’m basing mine in an infallible memory….LOL…. But my point….we always discussed either AW46 or AFT.  

Not gonna speculate or argue or debate TRW requiring ATF, but the  TRW tech guy that I spoke to when I realized, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I have AFT and not the “Manual says AW46”, he never commented or said that TRW was supposed to only have ATF, but said since I had ATF, .but he was adamant about spending the extra money for the Transynd or an equivalent APPROVED TES-295.  By approved, that means that Allison receives samples of the ATF and conducts their own testing.  There is a list of “approved” vendors and names on the Allison webpage.  There are many (don’t ask for numbers) vendors or manufacturers that have independently tested their ATF and put on the label that they are TES-295 (or the newer one)…however, they don’t go through the “Allison” process….and YES, getting on the Allison list does cost some $$’s, but the big boys, or at least in the past, like the XOM Delvac paid the tow….and we have never had any reports of issues….

[Gweedo]

Thank you guys for the info, now I'm a little more concerned just in case.   I did some research on the vin decoder, it was built in Elkhart,  Tom mentioned a nelson filter which I took out and replaced with a Baldwin filter, the only difference was the nelson had rubber on the endcaps and Baldwin were thinner gasket type material. 

I have the build sheets and nothing states anything about the steering or hydraulic system. Is there a website for this info?  Not a problem if I have to drain the entire system but I need to do it before our trip next week.  If it's oil then I'm good, if not...well you know. 

So now I'm going off where it was built and the info provided by the Rev grp.  I certainly do not to contaminate the system!!!!  Not sure how much the entire system holds, but I am estimating I added 5-6+ ounces of 15-40

TRW steering box, I have seen this mentioned several times, how do I determine what steering system I have. 

 The whole reason behind this endeavor (pardon the pun) was to change the filter I didn't know I had, and I could feel a slight jerking on the wheel, the fluid was down to the add line.  I've owned this for several years so I know it hasn't been changed.   

 

Thnx

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Gweedo
typo

[klcdenver]

The TRW is adjustable and the Sheppard is not. An easy way to tell the difference is by how the Pitman arm is attached to the steering box. The Sheppard has a large nut on the end of the output shaft and the TRW uses a bolt to clamp the Pitman arm to the output shaft

[Gweedo]

4 minutes ago, klcdenver said:

The TRW is adjustable and the Sheppard is not. An easy way to tell the difference is by how the Pitman arm is attached to the steering box. The Sheppard has a large nut on the end of the output shaft and the TRW uses a bolt to clamp the Pitman arm to the output shaft

 

4 minutes ago, klcdenver said:

The TRW is adjustable and the Sheppard is not. An easy way to tell the difference is by how the Pitman arm is attached to the steering box. The Sheppard has a large nut on the end of the output shaft and the TRW uses a bolt to clamp the Pitman arm to the output shaft

awesome thnx

[klcdenver]

I case you have a sheppard and want to change I have attached the instructions. This procedure works well, I did it about 6 months ago.

Sheppard to TRW swap.pdf

[Tom Cherry]

44 minutes ago, Gweedo said:

Thank you guys for the info, now I'm a little more concerned just in case.   I did some research on the vin decoder, it was built in Elkhart,  Tom mentioned a nelson filter which I took out and replaced with a Baldwin filter, the only difference was the nelson had rubber on the endcaps and Baldwin were thinner gasket type material. 

I have the build sheets and nothing states anything about the steering or hydraulic system. Is there a website for this info?  Not a problem if I have to drain the entire system but I need to do it before our trip next week.  If it's oil then I'm good, if not...well you know. 

So now I'm going off where it was built and the info provided by the Rev grp.  I certainly do not to contaminate the system!!!!  Not sure how much the entire system holds, but I am estimating I added 5-6+ ounces of 15-40

TRW steering box, I have seen this mentioned several times, how do I determine what steering system I have. 

 The whole reason behind this endeavor (pardon the pun) was to change the filter I didn't know I had, and I could feel a slight jerking on the wheel, the fluid was down to the add line.  I've owned this for several years so I know it hasn't been changed.   

 

Thnx

 

You just solved the issue.  The plant managers, like the auto groups, except that the Auto managers have way less authority, must have made the change.  So, you have ab Elkhart coach.

Shinny under the driver’s side in front of the wheel.  Take a flashlight.  Look up at the steering sector or box. As Ken just posted, they are easy to tell apart.  There is a splined, split clamp on the TRW.  Sort of like an Automotove battery clamp….except with splines.  You loosen the clamp bolt and then “convince” the pitman arm to slide down.  The Shepherd’s have a fsstening system that pulls the pitman arm into the shaft.

Odds ARE….you have a Shepherd.  But I only say that based on memory as many 2007 Diplomats have been upgraded as part of the “Watts” addition.

OK…what to do.  Your reservoir may be different than some of the more familiar ones.  Again…this is the MOST Common.  A 2 gallon Nelson and a 5 gallon Nelson.  NOPE….that is not what you have.  Do some digging in your manual.  Your hydraulic oil system is only 3.5 quarts.  Your reservoir does NOT match one of the ones posted…or the “picture” without some reference like a tape measure is difficult to visualize.  Your estimate of 3 oz, may be OK, don’t know.  

NOPE, nary a website.  Manual says to change the filter…BTW, that comes from the vendor (Shepherd) info.  The interval is annually, NEVER DONE, or 15K.  So, once every 3 years, do it.  Those of us with the larger reservoirs (at least the folks that I correspond with) do it maybe every 5 years.  Since I have done mine twice…and refilled with Transynd…probably never.  I would be more concerned about changing my drive differential and putting in Delvac Synthetic.

Once again….read the manual.  If you do, then you will catch the error.  First portion says 15W40.  OK…the “writers” got that right.  BUT….read ON….then HR tells you, REFILL WITH DEXRON II ATF.  Hmmmm…maybe the folks that write the manuals OUGHT to get out on the floor.  This type of inconsistency is why we “trust, but verify” our manuals.  I personally do NOT ever plan on “cracking or breaking a hose connection” and draining or whatever.

You’ve done the maintenance….I personally would not worry and make a note for 3 - 5 years.  I would NOT put in a synthetic….just a good trusted brand of COMMON  motor oil.

Good Luck.

[jacwjames]

The Sheppard steering box has the name cast right into the housing, I can read mine pretty easy.  Here's a picture of my Sheppard looking  up. 

Most complaints around the Sheppard have to do with slope/play in the steering and wandering.  

[Gweedo]

1 hour ago, klcdenver said:

I case you have a sheppard and want to change I have attached the instructions. This procedure works well, I did it about 6 months ago.

Sheppard to TRW swap.pdf 567.18 kB · 0 downloads

That is awesome, thank you!  I very much appreciate everyone's response.  the switch out info couldn't be better.  going to see what I have this morning.  If we decide to keep it (probably will) I will switch it out.  I noticed a bit more sea saw last couple trips.  

 

[Tom Cherry]

22 minutes ago, Gweedo said:

That is awesome, thank you!  I very much appreciate everyone's response.  the switch out info couldn't be better.  going to see what I have this morning.  If we decide to keep it (probably will) I will switch it out.  I noticed a bit more sea saw last couple trips.  

 

OK....NOW, Here is one question....  and I am flagging our expert in swaps. but FIRST...I think I misunderstood you or perhaps we misunderstood each other. Here is a picture of your reservoir that I lifted from an IRV2 post....using your Nelson PN from your manual.  What I MEANT....  MOST FOLKS PUMP OUT the reservoir and get it EMPTY....then the put in the NEW Filter.....and fill it back up.  The best method is to get the dipstick to the right level (Cold or Hot....).  THEN, you pop the cap.  Measure DOWN from the top to the level.  Pump that sucker out (get a hand pump or a marine oil pump kit that fits on your drill...or a big hose and then, carefully, use it like we used to to steal gas.  LOL.  NOW, that it is empty....put in the NEW filter.  THEN refill to the proper level.  You are Exchanging or removing contaminated oil...  I can't guess but again, maybe the manual was wrong...but it does say...  3.5 Quarts....NOW, I hope that clears up what I was saying about doing the maintenance....  NEXT UP....I am flagging or asking our resident expert on swaps to chime in.....see below...

@vanwill52

This is a 2007 Endeavor....an Elkhart Coach, supposedly the TWIN of the 2007 Diplomats.  It has, supposedly, on a 3.5 QUART capacity of the Hydraulic oil.  That sounds puny.. Maybe the Tech Writer used QUARTS when he mean Gallons.....but WHO KNOWS.  I can't get a read on the capacity from the picture above.  ANYWAY...  I ASSUME that when you have done swaps, that you drained the system and then went back with Dexron II ATF since it has a TRW steering sector now.  Can you elaborate a bit...

@Gweedo  My opinion is still the same.  IF you swap out the unit to TRW, then you use TRANSYND.  That is what the TRW Tech told me that they are using now for their "EXTENDED" warranty or high use units.  The difference in cost of the Transynd (Delvac would be OK), is insignificant....as in if you have a NEW system....then put in the best lubricant...and TRW says they use Transynd or any TES-295.

Just my thoughts....

 

Thanks

[Gweedo]

27 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

OK....NOW, Here is one question....  and I am flagging our expert in swaps. but FIRST...I think I misunderstood you or perhaps we misunderstood each other. Here is a picture of your reservoir that I lifted from an IRV2 post....using your Nelson PN from your manual.  What I MEANT....  MOST FOLKS PUMP OUT the reservoir and get it EMPTY....then the put in the NEW Filter.....and fill it back up.  The best method is to get the dipstick to the right level (Cold or Hot....).  THEN, you pop the cap.  Measure DOWN from the top to the level.  Pump that sucker out (get a hand pump or a marine oil pump kit that fits on your drill...or a big hose and then, carefully, use it like we used to to steal gas.  LOL.  NOW, that it is empty....put in the NEW filter.  THEN refill to the proper level.  You are Exchanging or removing contaminated oil...  I can't guess but again, maybe the manual was wrong...but it does say...  3.5 Quarts....NOW, I hope that clears up what I was saying about doing the maintenance....  NEXT UP....I am flagging or asking our resident expert on swaps to chime in.....see below...

@vanwill52

This is a 2007 Endeavor....an Elkhart Coach, supposedly the TWIN of the 2007 Diplomats.  It has, supposedly, on a 3.5 QUART capacity of the Hydraulic oil.  That sounds puny.. Maybe the Tech Writer used QUARTS when he mean Gallons.....but WHO KNOWS.  I can't get a read on the capacity from the picture above.  ANYWAY...  I ASSUME that when you have done swaps, that you drained the system and then went back with Dexron II ATF since it has a TRW steering sector now.  Can you elaborate a bit...

@Gweedo  My opinion is still the same.  IF you swap out the unit to TRW, then you use TRANSYND.  That is what the TRW Tech told me that they are using now for their "EXTENDED" warranty or high use units.  The difference in cost of the Transynd (Delvac would be OK), is insignificant....as in if you have a NEW system....then put in the best lubricant...and TRW says they use Transynd or any TES-295.

Just my thoughts....

 

Thanks

I am not swapping out the steering box yet, when I/if I do I will do what is required.    As for the photo that is what I have,  prior to changing the filter I looked at the oil and it looked like new.  Normally because I am annal I would change out all the fluid, but we are leaving and don't have much time.  so I gloved up and replaced just the filter and topped off the fluid cold.  Hope this helps clear things up.  

If it is hydraulic fluid and if the system is 3.5 gallons, I don't think a few ounces of oil will hurt it, at least I hope not.  I don't know if there is something out there that can tell the difference between the two.   

Thnx again

[jacwjames]

I have the much larger reservoir, it has 3 stacked Nelson filters.

The first time I changed filters I followed the instructions an removed enough of the oil to get to the lower filter.  Pulled the filters and then installed the new with new oil. 

The second time I changed the filters I opted to empty the reservoir by loosening one of the smaller hoses and letting the oil drain into a bucket, I let it drain until no more oil came out.  I then pulled the filters.  I found that at the bottom the filters rest on an elevated platform, and the suction line is attached to a fitting there in the center.  This IMHO was the better method to change the filters and oil 

If you only drained enough oil to get the last filter and if by chance there was any amount of contamination in the filters as you pull them there would be a chance the the contamination could drop down into the center portion of the tank as you remove the last filter and right into the suction port.  By draining all the oil on the outside of the filter you reduce the chance of contamination getting into the suction port. 

 

[Gweedo]

I agree with, I only have one filter.  And even the filter looked really good, light shined right through it.  I'm letting the filter drain so I can get a good look at it.  I will do my best to get a definitive answer on which fluid was used.  At the very least I will contact some reputable shops and get their opinion.   Thanx again for the info I'll take all I can get.