2007 Endeavor Hydraulic Fluid Mysteries - FINAL RESOLUTION

[Frank McElroy]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:57 PM, Tom Cherry said:

Gweedo, @Gweedo

As one who has been there.  REV DON'T KNOW DIDDLY SQUAT.  Believe it or not...and I have spent a LOT of time on the phone during the early years with the REAL Monaco Techs.  What is in the manual may NOT be Gospel.  My MANUAL said ATF for the Hydraulic.  OK...Bought a 5 gallon pail of the Texaco AW46.  NOPE, When I popped the cap on the Nelson reservoir....it was PURE ATF.  Called Monaco Tech Support.  There were only 3 of them.  Jim seems to be the most knowledgeable.  Jim's RESPONSE.  The manuals are CRAP.  The idiots that write them stay in their cubicles and don't get down on the floor....SO THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING and the manuals are full of misprints, copy and pastes and downright WRONG information.  

Now, being an old Ford Q-1 Engineering Manager and knowing how REAL Manufacturing Engineering works, I started to say.  Jim, why don't the folks on the floor and the supervisors and the workers MILTP...Make It Like The Print.  BUT, I held my tongue.

He went on to say that Monaco switched over to ALL ATF circa 2006/7.  WELL NOW, I know MANY folks with the TRW Steering Sectors in their 2008 Dynasty.  One is an Ex Exxon-Mobil Chemist.  HIGH RANKING.  If he says his fluid is HYDRAULIC FLUID...even though Jim said that all MONACO's after 2006/7 were ATF, then I trust him.  He did the COLOR analysis.  His was STRAW/YELLOW/TAN.  Might was a clear shade of RED.  If yours is NOT a distinct RED, easily discernable assuming no color blindness issues...then it is PROBABLY AW46.  NOW, if it has some TINGES of Red in it...the the PO, mixed.

Based on my conversations with the Pump vendor and TRW, if it is ATF....then add TRANSYND....That is the BEST.  But, if is PURE Yellow....the stick with AW46.  BUT, if is some combination or mixture, then you can either DRAIN the entire system...or drain the reservoir and add Transynd.  You CAN MIX, per Pump and TRW, ATF (recommend Transynd) with the AW 46.  BUT, going the OTHER way is NOT recommended.

That is a fact.  And REV has NO idea what Navistar did nor even the faintest as to what Monaco DID.  Take that to the bank...

Tom - Yes that retired Exxon-Mobil Chemist would be me.  However, using AW46 is not recommended because at very low temperature (well below freezing, the fluid can become so viscous that it can blow out the heat exchanger.  If you travel in areas below freezing temperature, I would recommend only using Transynd fluid.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Frank McElroy said:

Tom - Yes that retired Exxon-Mobil Chemist would be me.  However, using AW46 is not recommended because at very low temperature (well below freezing, the fluid can become so viscous that it can blow out the heat exchanger.  If you travel in areas below freezing temperature, I would recommend only using Transynd fluid.

Thank GOD you “came out”.  No argument here.  All I know is what you told me and TRW & the pump and fan vendor.  You have AW46…if I recall.  Can’t remember if Shepherd or TRW steering.  I HATE to do research and buy something and then find out it was a mistake.  In addition, I already had my reservoir emptied.  I tried every way to get an OK to mix my new AW46 with the ATF….and read a lot…and then it became clear.  Use the Transynd….which I did.

Later on, as more was posted and more information came out, then the subzero issues of AW46 kept popping up.  Maybe coincidence, but there were few reported failures of the AW46.  But in the last 5 years, I remember at least 4 or 5.

I still wonder, and we will never know, why the 07 Endeavors had 10W40….but whoever made the change was careless and they didn’t keep reading and the AFT was left in the manual…

Any ideas, since you are a an oil patch chemist, WHY the motor oil was used.  It may have been on hand and overstocked and someone said….USE IT UP….stranger things have happened at Monaco…

[Frank McElroy]

I think there is a lot of misinformation being discussed. According to the table posted from REV, it says to use transmission fluid.  Monaco changed over from AW-46 to trans fluid because AW-46 is too viscous for use in extremely cold climates.  Bill D did talk about changing out AW-46 in favor of using transmission fluid.

[Tom Cherry]

40 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

I think there is a lot of misinformation being discussed. According to the table posted from REV, it says to use transmission fluid.  Monaco changed over from AW-46 to trans fluid because AW-46 is too viscous for use in extremely cold climates.  Bill D did talk about changing out AW-46 in favor of using transmission fluid.

Agreed….the AW46 had issues.  But if you revisit a lot of the posts and also look at the manuals, there was a difference in “The Fix”.  Jim and the original Coburg techs were all of the opinion that Monaco switched over to ATF circa 2005/6 or 7 and that the tech support writers that were responsible for the manuals did not keep up with running line changes.  And were critical of that area.

Don’t know what years that the manuals were incorrect and still specified AW46….except mine is wrong.

The 2007 Diplomat’s manual calls for Dexron II ATF.  That was under the Coburg Monaco side of the company.  Presumably the Holiday Rambler side or the Endeavor TWIN should have been the same as the Diplomat.  For curiosity, I pulled the HR Endeavor’s manuals for 2006, 7 & 8.  FWIW.  There was a “Owners Manual Team” that was equally divided between Coburg and Elkhart.  The manuals, just like the sales brochures are the same….as they came from a “Master” Electronic document.  The changes were to use Monaco/Diplomat references and photos and such for the Diplomats…..and Holiday Rambler/Endeavor changes for the Endeavors.

To say that the Endeavor manuals were “accurate” is a bit of a stretch.  Specially…..as to the “Hydraulic Oil” specs or copy.

2006….Endeavor lists a Lube Chart and has TF which is Dexron II ATF.  That chart, for the 2006 Endeavor, calls for TF and doesn’t get into any type or kind of fluid and also has less info on the system.

2007… Endeavor’s manual is slightly different…..as Monaco upgraded the master copy.  The Lube Chart now says EO2 which is defined as 10W40 Motor Oil.  The description about the system and more information on maintenance and such specifies 10W40 in one section, but the followup comments and such say to use Dexron II ATF.  Obviously the Elkhart gang missed the “change this” notes that were in the master copy.

2008… Endeavor’s manual was corrected and they caught the overlooked Dexron II ATF copy and changed it to 10W40 motor oil.  Then the Endeavor’s Lube chart calls for EO2.  The EO2 was the “code” for a specific grade 10W40, where EO was “Engine Manufacturers Recommendation”.  BUT, the Coburg gang had changed the “Lube type & designation” chart.  The Master Chart no longer has an EO2 row….  So, the lube chart references a type of fluid, but it ain’t defined….

BOTTOM LINE.  I don’t know if my speculation is correct….and maybe someone does.  What happened as you, pointed out….Monaco tried to switch from the AW46….but your Dynasty still has it.  I think that the “folks in charge” in Elkhart didn’t “like to use Dexron II ATF” in the HR Endeavor’s hydraulic system and substituted 10W40.  No rhyme, reason, logic or explanation.

This entire topic has been about “what do I have and what do I put in”.  @Gweedo followed the crumbs.  The 2007 said 10W40.  From my viewpoint, that was “NEW TO ME” and I learned two things….one of which was a lesson learned over, time and time again….

Monaco used a third type of “hydraulic oil” 10W40 and I was not aware….always thought there were only TWO.

Never trust your manual.  Read the manual carefully as it is supposed to be the bible…Gweedo did.  And his was right….don’t understand the logic and I doubt that there as any real science or engineering analysis put into the Elkhart decision….but….if you have red ATF in yiur system, as I do, and the manual says AW46…and it came from Coburg…..take what you read with a grain of salt and never buy lubricants or filters or such without verifying what is in your MH….

Thus endeth the reading of the Gospel this sabbath morning….according to St. Monaco.  Forgive my blasphemous comment….going to church now….play nice…

[Gweedo]

Moderator EDIT

This new tooic was just a “follow up” or what the OP decided to do.  It had to be edited and then merged with the original topic.  

FOR ALL MEMBERS INFORMATION….

PLEASE do not create a NEW TOPIC.  Use the original.  Doing the housekeeping to tie the two topics together so there is one cohesive discussion is cumbersome and creates extra work for the staff.

THANKS

END of EDIT.

…..Good morning, I recently posted a question regarding the type of oil I have in my power steering unit and I received a lot of great info.  However in light of this info and not knowing for certain if I have engine oil or hydraulic oil, and, the fact I added several ounces of oil to the system and possibly contaminating the system, I have decided it's best to transition from oil to AFT just in case.

Tom Cheery furnished a lot of info and Frank McElroy has furnished me with some very good advice on draining and a lot of other important info to consider, thank you Frank and Tom. 

I am wondering if anyone has done the transition, about how much fluid it took, what filter you used and how you drained the system.  

my reservoir is 8" tall with two lines coming off the bottom, I do not see a spin on filter and I have a rear radiator.

Thanks, Guido

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Tom Cherry
New topic not needed.

[Tom Cherry]

31 minutes ago, Gweedo said:

Good morning, I recently posted a question regarding the type of oil I have in my power steering unit and I received a lot of great info.  However in light of this info and not knowing for certain if I have engine oil or hydraulic oil, and, the fact I added several ounces of oil to the system and possibly contaminating the system, I have decided it's best to transition from oil to AFT just in case.

Tom Cheery furnished a lot of info and Frank McElroy has furnished me with some very good advice on draining and a lot of other important info to consider, thank you Frank and Tom. 

I am wondering if anyone has done the transition, about how much fluid it took, what filter you used and how you drained the system.  

my reservoir is 8" tall with two lines coming off the bottom, I do not see a spin on filter and I have a rear radiator.

Thanks, Guido

 

One can NOT go wrong doing that.  There will be, perhaps, some recommendations on flushing and such.  Frankly, draining and refilling should be sufficient.  But, if you desire to flush….then buy a quart or two of any Dexron Ii or III and flush.  No sense wasting the Transynd.  Your call on the “revised” Transynd or the original TES-295.  The TRW TECH said it was light years ahead of the plain ATF.

GOOD luck.  Let us know when completed….

[Gweedo]

Thnx, I used transynd in my trans n I believe that was #295, I'm seeing 668 now.  Good idea on using less expensive to flush, not sure how much the entire system holds so I will buy a 5-gallon bucket and replace the filter again after flushing.  

I guess I'll go with the 668, it's the same thing but only better now.  

[96 EVO]

Just changed out my factory filled Transynd, with a Allison approved 668 spec ATF.

Here's a list of fluids you can chose from, so, you can shop around for the best price!

https://www.allisontransmission.com/parts-service/approved-fluids/on-highway-fluids

[Gweedo]

1 hour ago, 96 EVO said:

Just changed out my factory filled Transynd, with a Allison approved 668 spec ATF.

Here's a list of fluids you can chose from, so, you can shop around for the best price!

https://www.allisontransmission.com/parts-service/approved-fluids/on-highway-fluids

Hey thanks for sending the info.  just picked up 4-gallons of 668.  how much did you use?  

1 hour ago, 96 EVO said:

Just changed out my factory filled Transynd, with a Allison approved 668 spec ATF.

Here's a list of fluids you can chose from, so, you can shop around for the best price!

https://www.allisontransmission.com/parts-service/approved-fluids/on-highway-fluids

how did you flush yours, I think your system is much larger than mine.

 

[96 EVO]

Sorry, I changed out my transmission.

I was just showing you have choices when it comes to TES-668 spec ATF 😉!

[Gweedo]

Just now, 96 EVO said:

Sorry, I changed out my transmission.

I was just showing you have choices when it comes to TES-668 spec ATF 😉!

Okay gotcha,  did my trans last year.  thnx

[Gweedo]

Gotta laugh I guess, went back to check manual, one paragraph says filled with 15-40 at the factory very next paragraph say check level and top off with Dextron aft.  

[96 EVO]

Swear the manual writers were smoking crack all day!

[Gweedo]

Lmao

Actually feels n looks more like hydraulic 

Two line from the reservoir lg n small looks like they go to pump the one into steering box n back to reservoir.  Anyone know which is low pressure side.  I have a 50% chance of being right.., lol just don’t want to get blasted.  

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Gweedo said:

Gotta laugh I guess, went back to check manual, one paragraph says filled with 15-40 at the factory very next paragraph say check level and top off with Dextron aft.  

That was what was previously posted…..TWICE.  DOUBLE LOL!

[Gweedo]

Update all finished: 

So I believe it contained hydraulic fluid based on the smell and fell.    I broke loose the two lines at the steering box and allowed it to drain over night.  Then I used air through the return line at the reservoir to blow out residual.  Blew air through pressure side but could not get it to come out the other end, so rather than pushing the limit and not wanting to take a chance on damaging the power steering/seals I elected to flush with trans fluid.   

I re-attached the lines at the steering box, then removed the return line (the smaller of the two) from the bottom of the reservoir and zip tied it to keep it pointed down into a bucket.  Filled reservoir 1/2 way, had a buddy  start the engine for a few seconds and watched the fluid go down to make certain it was the pressure side.  Shut off engine, filled again started engine and kept pouring until the ATF fluid pushed out all the original oil.   Did a few more quarts for good measure.  Filled up the reservoir, installed filter and ran up to temp while checking for leaks.  All is good.   

My system is a smaller reservoir with one filter:  Nelson  84365a  or  Baldwin PT951.  I prefer Nelson because there are at least a 3rd more holes

I used Transynd 668:  Total was 3 1/2 quarts, I flushed the system with 4 quarts of a cheaper brand (not much)  that is compatible with Transynd.

Air pressure:  I used about 30lbs PSI, with a rag over the tip to prevent moisture from entering the system, put a rag at the other end to prevent blast of fluid

After filling I ran up to temp "Before" turn the front wheels side side twice, this helps bleed trapped air.  

Get a friend to assist.

I received a lot of good advice (on the forum and PM) from everyone, took a little from each and I was successful.   Simple DIY just make certain not to run the system dry!  Air is your enemy!!!

Thanks for all of the advice, I really appreciate it! Safe travels..

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Gweedo said:

Update all finished: 

So I believe it contained hydraulic fluid based on the smell and fell.    I broke loose the two lines at the steering box and allowed it to drain over night.  Then I used air through the return line at the reservoir to blow out residual.  Blew air through pressure side but could not get it to come out the other end, so rather than pushing the limit and not wanting to take a chance on damaging the power steering/seals I elected to flush with trans fluid.   

I re-attached the lines at the steering box, then removed the return line (the smaller of the two) from the bottom of the reservoir and zip tied it to keep it pointed down into a bucket.  Filled reservoir 1/2 way, had a buddy  start the engine for a few seconds and watched the fluid go down to make certain it was the pressure side.  Shut off engine, filled again started engine and kept pouring until the ATF fluid pushed out all the original oil.   Did a few more quarts for good measure.  Filled up the reservoir, installed filter and ran up to temp while checking for leaks.  All is good.   

My system is a smaller reservoir with one filter:  Nelson  84365a  or  Baldwin PT951.  I prefer Nelson because there are at least a 3rd more holes

I used Transynd 668:  Total was 3 1/2 quarts, I flushed the system with 4 quarts of a cheaper brand (not much)  that is compatible with Transynd.

Air pressure:  I used about 30lbs PSI, with a rag over the tip to prevent moisture from entering the system, put a rag at the other end to prevent blast of fluid

After filling I ran up to temp "Before" turn the front wheels side side twice, this helps bleed trapped air.  

Get a friend to assist.

I received a lot of good advice (on the forum and PM) from everyone, took a little from each and I was successful.   Simple DIY just make certain not to run the system dry!  Air is your enemy!!!

Thanks for all of the advice, I really appreciate it! Safe travels..

Wonderful write up.  Now, one follow up question.  i have the smaller, single filter reservoir, however your top looks a little different.  That reservoir only holds maybe less than 2 gallons or 7 quarts.  My manual, which I don’t know whether to believe or not, say 35 quarts, initial fill.  OK, NOW there is, 7 gallons in the pump, coolant fan motors. oil cooler, lines, etc.  Hard to fathom.

SO, THE TOTAL for your system, after you drained it, was less than a gallon.  You have a conventional water pump & fan, not hydraulic.  But the steering sector and lines are the same.  

Just to confirm, the 3.5 quarts were for the entire system and not just the reservoir.  Thanks

[Gweedo]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Wonderful write up.  Now, one follow up question.  i have the smaller, single filter reservoir, however your top looks a little different.  That reservoir only holds maybe less than 2 gallons or 7 quarts.  My manual, which I don’t know whether to believe or not, say 35 quarts, initial fill.  OK, NOW there is, 7 gallons in the pump, coolant fan motors. oil cooler, lines, etc.  Hard to fathom.

SO, THE TOTAL for your system, after you drained it, was less than a gallon.  You have a conventional water pump & fan, not hydraulic.  But the steering sector and lines are the same.  

Just to confirm, the 3.5 quarts were for the entire system and not just the reservoir.  Thanks

That is correct, 3.5 quarts give or take a cpl ounces.  I do not have the hydraulic water pump or fan.

[Ivan K]

Just now, Gweedo said:

That is correct, 3.5 quarts give or take a cpl ounces.  I do not have the hydraulic water pump or fan.

Even with two hydraulic fans it takes a tank like this to fit 35 quarts. There goes the manual accuracy again.

[Gweedo]

1 minute ago, Ivan K said:

Even with two hydraulic fans it takes a tank like this to fit 35 quarts. There goes the manual accuracy again.

Holy cow 35 qts.  that's like when I did my trans.   I Purchased 4-gallons @$53, glad I get to take 2-back.  Thinking of doing the TRW, but don't have the time right now, leaving Wednesdays, gotta start looking into those now. 

4 minutes ago, Gweedo said:

Holy cow 35 qts.  that's like when I did my trans.   I Purchased 4-gallons @$53, glad I get to take 2-back.  Thinking of doing the TRW, but don't have the time right now, leaving Wednesdays, gotta start looking into those now. 

KLCDenver gave me great info and the amount,  to be honest I thought even having a small reservoir just the length of the lines would take that much.  

[96 EVO]

So, your reservoir tank DID have the band around it, that you remove to get at the internal filter?

Like Tom, the top of your tank doesn't look like mine. But, my rad fan is hyd driven.

[Gweedo]

1 minute ago, 96 EVO said:

So, your reservoir tank DID have the band around it, that you remove to get at the internal filter?

Like Tom, the top of your tank doesn't look like mine. But, my rad fan is hyd driven.

 

1 minute ago, 96 EVO said:

So, your reservoir tank DID have the band around it, that you remove to get at the internal filter?

Like Tom, the top of your tank doesn't look like mine. But, my rad fan is hyd driven.

No band, one center bolt with a spring and washer pushing down on the one filter, top pops off.  I don't think the reservoir holds 2=quarts.  it's only 8" tall

[96 EVO]

Got it!

Much different reservoir than we have!

[dandick66]

A couple of years ago I noticed the fluid was a little low in my 2012 Diplomat.  I checked the manual and it said to use AW46, so that’s what I added.  
I have no idea if my manual was wrong.  Could I have caused any potential damage to anything by adding the AW46 if it was supposed to have ATF or 10-40?  Everything seems fine and I have not had to add any more fluid.

 I do not have a hydraulic fan and as far as I know the power steering is the only thing hydraulic other than the slides, which have their own reservoir. 

[Matt Lavender]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:47 AM, Ray Davis said:

I can't tell from your picture if yours has a clamp, like mine does.   What holds your lid on?   Here's a picture of the clamp, after removing it my lid lifts/pops off.

Edit,  I would reinstall the plugs in the holes on top and wash the sand, etc. from the area.   You sure don't want to take a chance of it getting inside the system.

Any idea what filter is inside the canister?  Mine looks like that one.

Thanks