Replaced cutoff switch now system backfeeds from other source

[eddie4ne]

I replaced the cutoff switch that malfunctioned on our trip to Alaska. The switch wil not shut the power down on any position but the power will turn off if I shut off the house cutoff switch. I then turned the house switch back on with the chassis switch off. Turn on the ignition and nothing for a very short period of time, then the dash comes alive. I disconnected the chassis cutoff switch and the dash still had power. I suspect that the power is back feeding from the house batteries…but how and why!!

I repaced the switch with another Quest brand. The poles on the rear are labeled exactly as the original. The instructions said to connect the feeder and battery the opposite of how the original switch was wired. As per instructions, the wires were crossed when connected.       I originally wired it this way and later wired it as the original so I could mount in the original position.  

Any thoughts?

                               

[MyronTruex]

Either your switch is bad or you miswired it.

Remove the switch and use an ohmeter to identify how it works. A picture always helps of course. 

To prove it is the house batteries at fault you should be able to carefully remove the positive source from them or the ground side. The ground side is safer of course. 

[tmw188]

Here is a pic of my 2002 Windsor setup. So was the malfunction you mentioned on your trip what you described in your post or was that what your experiencing since you changed out the switch?  It’s just a switch not a A-B switch so you should  be able to wire it either way. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by tmw188

[eddie4ne]

I thought it was malfunctioning also.  When I called the vender he concurred. When I swithced the wires to   The configuration in the pic above it still did not shut the power down. Just trying all possibilities, we cut the power to the house at that also cut the power to the chassis. When I took the switch out of the equation, the power still reached the engine with the switch disconnected.

23 minutes ago, myrontruex said:

Either your switch is bad or you miswired it.

 

[MyronTruex]

Feel that large solenoid on the back wall. Then measure the voltage on the purple wire. If the solenoid is warm or hot it is engaged.

If there is voltage on the purple wire the solenoid is engaged and providing engine battery power to the house side. 

From there things can be further diagnosed. I don't want to muddy the waters just yet. 

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

My switches look just like Todds in the picture.  The hook-up should be pretty straightforward with one wire in and one wire out.   Do you have other wires in addition to the 2 large wires?   If your bay looks like the picture then I agree with Myron,  the problem is somewhere else,  it's probably something to do with the solenoid.

A picture of your bay for comparison would be great.

[Tom Cherry]

Back to basics.  There are only (to the best of my recollection) two types of disconnect switches used.  The “single” pole single throw.  That is a high current switch.  It only has TWO Lugs or terminals.  The later Dynasty and up used a DPST.  It had two small terminals.  There was a control circuit that was needed for the boost board….complex, but Monaco wanted it.  It is called by Blue Seas, an ignition” signal.  Thus, when you turn off, both sets of contacts are OPEN. This was NOT used until the 2006 or so rewiring….and the Camelot’s and lower food chain never had the complex board.

The Boost Solenoid is energized via the momentary contact switch. Unless a PO had installed a “BIRD” or other BiDirectional system, the Boost solenoid should be open. 

The picture is great, but. It is difficult to follow the cables.  I’m answering this from my iPad, but just found some “rudimentary” prints.  The basic configuration was used in several MH’s….and is not unique to the Windsor nor the years.  We have prints dating back to 2000.  I will, after I post this, do an edit from the PC and add the prints.  If you blow up the “double print”, which I called Chassis, in the lower left corner is the wiring diagram for the “area”.  It LOOKS, and I suspected this, like Monaco used the terminals on the Boost, as “junction points.  In other words, the switch connects to a stud….then that stud sends out current to the main device.  Sort of a “freaky” way of doing it.  

YES….if the solenoid is defective….as in the contacts are welded or partially welded…you will get a circuit.  Simple test.  Pull the cables OFF one lug…use a bolt and nut and two flat washers.  Sandwich the terminals between the two washers and tighten.  You can pull BOTH, but pulling one side should also work.

If that solves the problem….great.  If not…then, there has to be an issue elsewhere.

NOW….FWIW, I would not replace the boost solenoid.  I would install a Blue Seas ML-ACR in it’s place.  You MIGHT need to do some recabling….I would NOT want to use the ML-ACR’s studs as “junction points.  Therefore, run, if they are long enough….the outgoing cables from each side of the solenoid up to their respective terminals on the switch.  Then use the cables that run from the switches down to the new ML-ACR.  That way, you prevent the issue from reoccurring..

BTW....no offense to the "tech support", but wiring this switch in using either side as the main power should work.  It is THAT simple.

If you wanted to really make this bullet proof...then buy TWO new Blue Seas 6006.  They are really rugged.  No offense to the older switches and the new one, but the preference, based on years of reading and then moderating.  INSTALL BLUE SEAS...  They LAST and LAST and WORK.

Amazon has them....

OK....another PRINT.  This is my HAND DRAWN...so any laughter will be punished and folks doing such will be MODERATED...  LOL.

Seriously.  You CAN rewire the system like the "LIKE THIS" in the bottom of the print.  If you put in a NEW solenoid (assuming this one is defective, then that will be better.  UNFORTUNATELY....the Solenoid is like a JUMPER.  I would DO THIS and also replace the solenoid with the ML-ACR...

Just an idea....the CORRECT (or the preferred) way would have been to have the outgoing power (current) from the banks DIRECTLY connected or terminated at the SWITCHES....no on the Boost Terminals.

Hope this helps...
 

2000 - 2004 - MAYBE Chassis Print.pdf 2000 -2004 High Current wiring diagrams.pdf

2002 Windsor Wiring Mods Boost Issues.pdf

[eddie4ne]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:19 AM, tmw188 said:

So was the malfunction you mentioned on your trip what you described in your post or was that what your experiencing since you changed out the switch?

On our trip after we lost all chassis power and realized it was the cutoff switch, we bolted the two cables attached to the switch together and we were good to go…just not able to cut power with switch. When I put the switch on is when I experienced this issue.

 

22 hours ago, Ray Davis said:

o you have other wires in addition to the 2 large wires?

2 wires only. Full disclosure, I bought the cutoff for a 2 battery system. But that should not effect this problem, just turn to battery 1. Pic below is the melted switch. The rear of the new switch is configured with the third lug being at the top where the circle is on the old switch.

Please excuse our dirt. We have not had time to clean her after 11553 miles with probably 300 to 400 miles of dirt roads whil on our Alaskan trip.

Also please excuse my ignorance! Ed is down for the count with COVID. He was first symptomatic when we were on the coast of Oregon. We held up in Bend Thousnad Trails for a week- they were kind enough to extend our stay to give him time to get over the worst of it. He is now dealing with the long covid symptoms.
I have been trying to do whatever I could to get things started. Yesterday I put the new gear on the step. It is not working either. I am thinking that the connector that hung without a cover over it it packed with dirt…like EVERYTHING else! I also put the rear slide out to reconnect the worm gear but I can’t do that by myself. 
 

I attached some pics that I thought might be relevant. The pic of the dash is taken with the switch off as seen the the next pic

Thanks so much for all of your advice! You all have been a Godsend!

Sharon
Have a new air filter ready to put on as well as oil change supplies.

[Tom Cherry]

3 minutes ago, eddie4ne said:

On our trip after we lost all chassis power and realized it was the cutoff switch, we bolted the two cables attached to the switch together and we were good to go…just not able to cut power with switch. When I put the switch on is when I experienced this issue.

 

2 wires only. Full disclosure, I bought the cutoff for a 2 battery system. But that should not effect this problem, just turn to battery 1. Pic below is the melted switch. The rear of the new switch is configured with the third lug being at the top where the circle is on the old switch.

Please excuse our dirt. We have not had time to clean her after 11553 miles with probably 300 to 400 miles of dirt roads whil on our Alaskan trip.

Also please excuse my ignorance! Ed is down for the count with COVID. He was first symptomatic when we were on the coast of Oregon. We held up in Bend Thousnad Trails for a week- they were kind enough to extend our stay to give him time to get over the worst of it. He is now dealing with the long covid symptoms.
I have been trying to do whatever I could to get things started. Yesterday I put the new gear on the step. It is not working either. I am thinking that the connector that hung without a cover over it it packed with dirt…like EVERYTHING else! I also put the rear slide out to reconnect the worm gear but I can’t do that by myself. 
 

I attached some pics that I thought might be relevant. The pic of the dash is taken with the switch off as seen the the next pic

Thanks so much for all of your advice! You all have been a Godsend!

Sharon
Have a new air filter ready to put on as well as oil change supplies.

OK…NOW…pictures.  Your MH DOES have a BIRD System as in, it will dual charge.  The “box” in the picture is for such.

That makes this whole “thing”, a bit more complicated.  My advice.  STOP NOW….until Ed is back 100%.  The Intellitec unit needs to be properly “trouble shot”.

Please post a closeup picture of the label on the boost…or the brand, model, etc from the boost.

The simple test, once things can be addressed, is testing the system without a connection to the Boost….then if the BIRD control module is functional, then installing a new Boost. BUT that has to be an Intellitec SPECIFICALLY designed for the BIRD…

[tmw188]

So that red switch on the right, is that the one you replaced? That looks like a A-B switch, which side closes the circuit for that 1 or 2? I guess maybe you could of been using the both position to turn it on? Is that the switch you replaced or the one in question? That should be the Chassis switch. 

[cbr046]

22 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

 . . .  any laughter will be punished and folks doing such will be MODERATED...  LOL

It's good to be the King . . . . 😉

On my Endeavor there's a solenoid in the FRB that connects chassis and coach battery.  Check that?

- bob

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, tmw188 said:

So that red switch on the right, is that the one you replaced? That looks like a A-B switch, which side closes the circuit for that 1 or 2? I guess maybe you could of been using the both position to turn it on? Is that the switch you replaced or the one in question? That should be the Chassis switch. 

Yes, it is an A-B or A&B switch.  BUT, there is only ONE source (input) and output....so, in effect it is a INPUT to Battery 1 (presumably) and there is NO Battery 2.  I have an auxillary switch like that, Blue Seas, that I added as there is (now FOUND I THINK) voltage drop in my HOUSE bank to my Front Hydraulic Slide motor.  I installed the selector switch so I can SWITCH to Chassis.  That improves the speed and also limits the Current Draw.  Will replace a Blue Seas, yes they fail...., that has about a half Volt drop when there is a 100 amp load.  THAT, I hope resolves it...but if push ever comes to SHOVE...I can throw BOTH banks on the hydraulic.

1 hour ago, cbr046 said:

It's good to be the King . . . . 😉

On my Endeavor there's a solenoid in the FRB that connects chassis and coach battery.  Check that?

- bob

Way down the food chain from the King and the Princes.....some classify as the JESTER....with some knowledge.  The Endeavors were still (and maybe now) using the OLDER wiring layouts.  In 2008, memory and circa, the Camelots and Scepters were converted from having the Boost and Salesman's Solenoids up front (really stupid....if you think about where the batteries are) to where the Dynasty and up have theirs....in the REAR. 

So, where ever the Boost IS.....and wherever the Switches are....Monaco's call.  BUT, in this case, the Boost is in plain site.  AND there is (added I THINK...maybe not) a BIRD (Intellitec) Controller.  Focus on trouble shooting it....if FUNCTIONAL...then that MAY (WILL?) impact which Soleonoid to use as the Replacement BOOST....

Need more info and pictures and then do some simple VOM testing.  Not NASA or something that the Kings and Princes only know.  LOL....

You are allowed to leave the throne room....bowing and crawling backwards....of course.  See the British Royalty Guidelines.  LOL...

[eddie4ne]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:40 AM, Tom Cherry said:

That makes this whole “thing”, a bit more complicated.  My advice.  STOP NOW….until Ed is back 100%.  The Intellitec unit needs to be properly “trouble shot”.

Just an update. Ed is recovering from what turned out to be his kidneys shutting down from prostate issues. Catheters and Surgery were involved in his recovery. He is still recovering but almost there. The issues with the RV will will have to wait until spring because we are warm weather ppl! Ed did get the motor for the step working but we will install come spring.

Sharon

[MyronTruex]

Battery switches are commonly built so they are in a Battery 1, Battery 2, or All position. Wiring one incorrectly can lead to some confusion so an ohmeter should be used to identify which poles to use.  The switch could be designed for Battery 1, Battery 1 + 2, etc. So you might not get a break in the circuit if wired incorrectly. 

[jacwjames]

FWIW

Here is the parts breakdown of the electrical bays on my 2002 Windsor PKD, which should be pretty close to what you have.  My chassis battery cutoff switch failed ~10 years ago and I replaced with the same one.   Have any other parts been changed out and/or wiring changes in general in this bay and possibly the front drivers side electrical bay.

For power to back feed there has to be a path for it travel.  If the key is off it should disable that from happening.  Wonder if something is going on in your front drivers side run bay and/or ignition switch. 

Also attached is the wiring diagram for the passenger side rear electrical bay, you will have to zoom in quite a bit to read it and it will appear blurry.  Hit CTRL5 and it will clear right up.  You can use it to confirm the wiring to the disconnect switch, but there should be only two wires that connect.  One thing I'd suggest to take the switch back out and see if the problem persists, if it does your problem is someplace else. 

1 Electrical Panel Passenger Sider 1.pdf 1 Electrical Panel Passenger Side 2.pdf 2002_Windsor_wiring_diagrams Rear Passenger side electric.pdf

[eddie4ne]

We are thinking that the battery boost solenoid has failed. Number 3 in the pic. We plan to replace this. any thoughts?

[jacwjames]

Easy to check.  Turn the disconnect off and see if you have power on both sides of the boost switch. 

Before I'd buy a new isolation solenoid I'd consider installing a Bluesea MLACR, it will take the place of the boost solenoid but it would also enable you to get rid of the BIRD & Lambert 415 maintainer.  Pretty easy swap, hardest part was running wire to the dash to replace the boost switch

[eddie4ne]

38 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Before I'd buy a new isolation solenoid I'd consider installing a Bluesea MLACR, it will take the place of the boost solenoid but it would also enable you to get rid of the BIRD & Lambert 415 maintainer. 

We have a couple solenoids on hand to replace but…will definitely consider the Bluesea. What is the Lambert maintainer?

OBTW thank you for the wiring diagram files. My adobe files are getting quite extensive!

Sharon

[jacwjames]

If you look at the second attachment I posted it is item #3.  The Lambert 415 maintainer is what keeps your chassis battery charged when plugged into shore power and visa versa, it keeps the house batteries charged when driving.  It works in conjunction with the BIRD and isolation solenoid. 

Back in 2021 I started to question if my system was working correctly, the Lambert 415 maintainer started to click constantly, it had never done that and the chassis battery didn't seem be charged to a level I was comfortable with.   The Lambert 415 is obsolete and I had seen where the Bluesea was being used by several Monaco members so I decided to go that route. 

I've owned my coach now for +15 years and over that period of time I have collected a lot of info on it and understand the systems pretty good.  Enough to be able to fix most of my problems but its good to be able to get questions answered here if I hit a brick wall.

Good luck

[eddie4ne]

It seems that we might have something to think about. I wonder if our breakdown had anything to do with the chassis battery not being healthy. Before we started our journey, I noticed that the start up was not as quick as previous. Within a week of our breakdown (1 month after leaving PA) we had to replace the chassis battery. We would usually camp at state or provincial parks therefore having to run the generator to make coffee and charge the batteries in the AM. This particular morning the generator started but sluggish. When running it was pulling 14 amps. We usually would pull 3 amps to run the residencial refrigerator. Hindsight- it was trying to charge the chassis battery. When I tried to start the coach, I had to use the battery boost switch. At tht point we decided that we needed to replace the chassis battery at our next stop. We next stopped in Williams Lake, BC at the Williams Lake Stampede. We could have walked to get the battery it was so close. It was at that stop that I noticed water on the floor and found that the kitchen faucet had sprung a leak underneath the counter. We also replaced that at this stop. 

[jacwjames]

Tom,

I do not have the Diesel 2 module, mine is the 00-00366-000 model.  No idea what the major difference is, it has the same number and named wire connectors. 

My continuous duty solenoid was rated for 200 amp continuous duty.  https://www.amazon.com/RODGERS-586-902-CONTACTOR-SPST-NO-BRACKET/dp/B00DE3HY4K?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=ATNHGLND9W21T

So not sure if there is a big difference in our coaches. 

Amazing how different the same make/model/year the coaches are. 

[MyronTruex]

It is very easy to diagnose a solenoid/relay. So easy I need to make a video. It would be about three minutes tops. 

However, chasing an intermittent one can be a challenge and that large one can have the contacts messed up and they may or may not make proper contact, especially under load.

If someone says you should change your oil filter regularly, you do so. If someone says you should just change that solenoid as a good maintenance measure, based on a half century of experience, you probably won't. I do not recommend throwing parts at a problem, however in some cases you need to toss in a new solenoid to eliminate other possibilites. Substitution is a viable troubleshooting technique. 

Those solenoids have caused (thousands) of problems over the years. I used to buy relay/solenoids by the dozens or even a hundred at a time. Bosh relays were a bargain by the bag and used in so many applications. Heavy duty constant duty relays were quite  bit more and not cheaper by the dozen. But we kept them on hand for sure, 

[Dr4Film]

This thread is very confusing. It is difficult to determine what happen when and exactly what the symptoms were.

First, I would replace the chassis disconnect switch with the same exact type that it came with from the factory, an ON/OFF switch versus a Battery 1 - Battery 2 switch before troubleshooting up or down stream possibilities.

The ONLY part that you replaced was this disconnect switch and it was THEN when you had the back-feed problems. You still may have multiple problems but it is best to work one one at a time.

Just my opinion.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Dr4Film

[DBRV.0]

My first thought when it was stated that voltage was present when the battery cutoff/disconnect was performed, made me think of my coach battery work a year ago.  I'm a 2009 Monaco Dynasty, so perhaps I have what you do not - a solar panel.  I found that with my chassis batteries turned off, there was still voltage.  The solar panel was the source.

Your boost solenoid, White Rogers, was replaced with a Big Boy solenoid in later years.  I found a great explanation in the YT video titled "You Don't Have to Replace the Bad Part...EVERYTIME!!!".  Both solenoid brands can be disassembled.  Check to ensure contacts inside are shiny and bright.  Clean it and you should be able to knock that off of your list of uncertainties.  When I opened mine up, it was in need of a good cleaning, and went from non-operational to operational.

[Tom Cherry]

52 minutes ago, DBRV.0 said:

My first thought when it was stated that voltage was present when the battery cutoff/disconnect was performed, made me think of my coach battery work a year ago.  I'm a 2009 Monaco Dynasty, so perhaps I have what you do not - a solar panel.  I found that with my chassis batteries turned off, there was still voltage.  The solar panel was the source.

Your boost solenoid, White Rogers, was replaced with a Big Boy solenoid in later years.  I found a great explanation in the YT video titled "You Don't Have to Replace the Bad Part...EVERYTIME!!!".  Both solenoid brands can be disassembled.  Check to ensure contacts inside are shiny and bright.  Clean it and you should be able to knock that off of your list of uncertainties.  When I opened mine up, it was in need of a good cleaning, and went from non-operational to operational.

There is a MAJOR difference in the two Coaches.  Your Dynasty has a proprietary Intellitec Board #6 that powers the Big Boy.  The 2002 Windsor has the Intellitec Diesel2 module.  The BIG BOY is actually different also.  The one in the pictures is a 100 A Continuous Duty where your's is a 200 Amp, NON CONTINUOUS.  Your Board 6 puts out twice the "pulse" as the Diesel 2.  Basically, if you measured the control voltage, it would be in the 8 VDC range (the DVM's average) but your Big Boy gets HOT and HUMS and you KNOW that the coil is working.  The Diesel 2 only puts out (DVM) about 4 VDC and is much quieter and also not nearly as hot.

As to the Solar, that should NOT be a factor.  There is a CROSS link somewhere in the circuitry and it appears to be NOT related to the Battery Cut off Switches.  IN EFFECT....if I understand it...the house batteries ae backfeeding the Ignition switch circuit and somehow getting in the dash unit.  THAT is what is perplexing and strange.

 

19 hours ago, jacwjames said:

Tom,

I do not have the Diesel 2 module, mine is the 00-00366-000 model.  No idea what the major difference is, it has the same number and named wire connectors. 

My continuous duty solenoid was rated for 200 amp continuous duty.  https://www.amazon.com/RODGERS-586-902-CONTACTOR-SPST-NO-BRACKET/dp/B00DE3HY4K?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=ATNHGLND9W21T

So not sure if there is a big difference in our coaches. 

Amazing how different the same make/model/year the coaches are. 

NOW we are on the SAME PAGE.  I can NOT understand HOW the ignition circuit is getting the power.  The IDIOT lights on the Dash are on the SWITCHED side of the ignition.  However, that is the SAME circuit or "wire" as the IGNITION (Chassis) terminal of the Diesel 2 module.  ONE OF MY WANDERING THOUGHTS....if the Diesel 2 has an internal issue, then if you fed the HOUSE battery (on or inside) the Module and it was "arcing" or shorted to the IGNITION Side....then that is exactly WHAT WOULD MADE THIS HAPPEN.

@eddie4ne

I KNOW this is frustrating....but before I went "down a rabbit hole", I might try this.  Assuming that the condition is still there...as in the Idiot Lights are on.  THEN I would do ONE simple thing....or maybe TWO....

First....on the Diesel 2 Module... START TO REMOVE the wires or pull them off the terminals.  OBVIOUSLY LABEL FIRST.

Pull off or disconnect the GEN SET.  In later years, Monaco NEVER, EVER used this.  I know that started in at least 2008....so, It is NOT an issue....but remove it.  DID THAT FIX IT?

Pull or disconnect the HOUSE or COACH BATTERY.  If the cross connection is inside the Diesel 2, THAT should correct it....  DID THAT FIX IT?

Finally, remove the IGNITION.....that should totally fix it...If my hunch (not a proven fact) is correct.  I THINK that the backfeed is coming in on the IGNITON side and the Diesel 2 if the ONLY place, logically, for that to happen.

If you can, please try this.....and if that fixes it....then your Diesel 2 is "defective.

NOW...if THAT is the CASE...MOST folks would install the ML-ACR like Jim J did.  You don't need a NEW Solenoid.  You don't need a NEW Diesel 2.  You NOW have FULL BiDirectional charging and a very robust unit.  We have many, as in a LOT, that have switched. 

BUT, before you go down that path....you have to eliminate WHERE the Backfeed is coming from.

Good Luck....keep us posted.