3 ACs controlled by 2 CCCs. Why did they do it that way???

[wamcneil]

Ok, so I've got 3 heat pumps controlled by 2 CCCs. One in the kitchen, and one in the bedroom.

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I might have a new twist. I just got done replacing the forward AC with a new penguin II/CCC2 and I'm starting to plan replacement of the other 2 units. Options...

Here's the current situation:

1. Front unit is all by itself, controlled by a CCC2 located in the kitchen.
2. Rear unit in the bedroom is Zone1 on a CCC in the bedroom
3. Middle unit (more like a 2ndary forward AC than 'middle' AC) is also controlled by the bedroom CCC as Zone2 and senses temperature using an external sensor located in the bathroom.

Before I start planning a reconfiguration... is there some benefit in this configuration that I'm missing? To me, it's much more intuitive for the front unit to be Zone 1, and the middle to be Zone 2. I'd rather do away with the temperature sensor in the bathroom, but I think it's required to have an external temperature sensor on Zone 2+.

So here's what I'm thinking. If I replace the middle AC with a penguin II, I could easily run the middle unit off of the front CCC2, right? The only problem would be connecting the two front units together with a phone cable from the front unit to the middle unit. It's only about 6' between the two.

I could run that phone cable either beside the central duct in the ceiling, or inside the duct.

Any problems with that plan?

Thanks.

Walter

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by wamcneil

[jfbolkovatz]

Walter,

The rear CCC's control the Aqua Hot 2 rear zones. One important issue is the front rear zone is for the Bath and concentrated pluming. Not sure you have a good idea.

The temp sensor in the toilet area I believe is for concentrated location.

 

Joeb

[wamcneil]

Well, the bathroom temperature sensor is connected to the rooftop unit, not the CCC. I’m not a fan of the temperature sensor being in the bathroom, but at this point I’m not planning to change it. 
The idea is to switch control of the middle unit from the bedroom CCC to the front CCC.

Cheers

Walter 

[herbstark]

12 hours ago, wamcneil said:

Ok, so I've got 3 heat pumps controlled by 2 CCCs. One in the kitchen, and one in the bedroom.

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I might have a new twist. I just got done replacing the forward AC with a new penguin II/CCC2 and I'm starting to plan replacement of the other 2 units. Options...

Here's the current situation:

1. Front unit is all by itself, controlled by a CCC2 located in the kitchen.
2. Rear unit in the bedroom is Zone1 on a CCC in the bedroom
3. Middle unit (more like a 2ndary forward AC than 'middle' AC) is also controlled by the bedroom CCC as Zone2 and senses temperature using an external sensor located in the bathroom.

Before I start planning a reconfiguration... is there some benefit in this configuration that I'm missing? To me, it's much more intuitive for the front unit to be Zone 1, and the middle to be Zone 2. I'd rather do away with the temperature sensor in the bathroom, but I think it's required to have an external temperature sensor on Zone 2+.

So here's what I'm thinking. If I replace the middle AC with a penguin II, I could easily run the middle unit off of the front CCC2, right? The only problem would be connecting the two front units together with a phone cable from the front unit to the middle unit. It's only about 6' between the two.

I could run that phone cable either beside the central duct in the ceiling, or inside the duct.

Any problems with that plan?

Thanks.

Walter

 

I have been told on this forum that connecting all three units to one CCCII will work, just as you thought daisy chain the phone cables.  My thermostats are like yours only about 6 foot apart with remote sensors.  I have replaced the front AC and thermostat and will add the others  to the kitchen CCCII thermostat as I replace them.  I love the way the new thermostat works, at least my old failing eyes can see the information on it without a flashlight.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by herbstark
clarity

[wamcneil]

The CCC2 has four zones! At first, I thought about hanging all three units off of the kitchen CCC2.

But then after scrutinizing the installation manual, it looks like each unit after Zone1 requires an external temperature sensor connected to each rooftop unit.

The bedroom unit is Zone1 on the bedroom CCC, so it has no external temperature sensor now. And in order to hang a new bedroom unit off the kitchen CCC2, the bedroom unit will require a temperature sensor (in addition to a phone cable from the middle unit). 

So, I'll probably wind up replacing the bedroom CCC with a new CCC2 only for the bedroom unit. That'll also solve the problem of covering up the holes left from the bedroom CCC.

Cheers,

Walter 

[vito.a]

You can easily reassign the zones.  The zone number is set by positioning the dip switch on each A/C control board.  Need to pull the plastic shroud and then the small metal cover over the control board.  Just be careful not to break the dip switches.  

I set the front as zone one, the center as zone 2, and the rear as zone 3.  

When you install a new heat pump or A/C, you have a choice of operating it with the new programmable CCC2 thermostat, or installing a retrofit control board and operating it with the older 5 button CCC.  However, you cannot control an older heat pump or A/C with a new CCC2 thermostat.  Either way they operate through an RJ11 telephone cord.  

[wamcneil]

2 hours ago, vito.a said:

You can easily reassign the zones.  ...  I set the front as zone one, the center as zone 2, and the rear as zone 3.  

Why did they not set it up like that from the factory!?!!!?? That (IMO) is a heck of a lot more intuitive than the way Monaco did it.

Cheers,

Walter

[Ivan K]

I, for one, like to have a separate thermostat for the rear sections that I can see and reach right from the pillow. Still all original equipment and working just fine but I do enjoy following the subject just in case things change. Now, if it was possible (maybe it is?) to control all the HVAC pieces from both thermostat locations, that would be one thing I would like too. 

[Dr4Film]

My two zone new Penguin II AC/HP's are controlled by the new CCC-2 located in the bedroom on a cabinet wall next to the bed. Like Ivan, I find that convenient to control while lying in bed. My Aqua-Hot has three thermostats, one on the wall just inside the hallway between the kitchen & bathroom which controls the three heat exchangers in the salon/kitchen area, one on the bathroom wall for the bathroom and one on the cabinet next to the bed for the bedroom. I have changed out all of the original mechanical thermostats for large screen digital ones. One is a programmable Emerson UP310 for the salon/kitchen and the other two are LUX Pro PSD111+ non-programmable thermostats.

[wamcneil]

Huh. Interesting that the coaches were done differently. 
In my system, there are also three aqua hot zones. But they are controlled through the CCCs, not independent thermostats 

Cheers

Walter

[Dr4Film]

10 minutes ago, wamcneil said:

Huh. Interesting that the coaches were done differently.

It may have something to do with which plant built the coach. My Windsor was built in Indiana whereas Dynasty's were built in Oregon.

[rpasetto]

I think most if not all 42' and larger coaches were set up the way yours is, with the rear Thermostat controlling the mid unit (near-front).  You raise an interesting point about changing cabling from the CCC2 to run a new mid unit from the front.  Let us know how it works out when you do it..

[wamcneil]

53 minutes ago, rpasetto said:

I think most if not all 42' and larger coaches were set up the way yours is, with the rear Thermostat controlling the mid unit (near-front).  You raise an interesting point about changing cabling from the CCC2 to run a new mid unit from the front.  Let us know how it works out when you do it..

Hopefully it'll be a while! (unless I can find somebody to buy my old working units...)

I'm pretty confidant that hanging a new Penguin II on the forward CCC2 would strictly be a matter of running one phone cable from the front unit to the mid unit! This would allow replacing just the middle unit with no need for the CCC compatibility board. 

Cheers,

Walter

[granvillebarker]

So your saying the CCC2 will run older units that the 5 button units controlled?

 

I was looking at the EasyTouchRV, and it says its compatible with the CCC2 units.   Has anyone tried one:

 

https://www.microair.net/products/easytouch-rv-thermostat?variant=32199143555156

 

 

--

Granville Barker

 

 

[Dr4Film]

The CCC-2 Thermostat will NOT control the older Penguin model AC/s that I know of.  The 5 button CCC will control a new Penguin II if you install a converter board into the Penguin II.

[wamcneil]

3 hours ago, granvillebarker said:

So your saying the CCC2 will run older units that the 5 button units controlled?

 

I was looking at the EasyTouchRV, and it says its compatible with the CCC2 units.   Has anyone tried one:

 

https://www.microair.net/products/easytouch-rv-thermostat?variant=32199143555156

 

 

--

Granville Barker

 

 

No, I am not suggesting that CCC2 will run older units. 

I'm saying that when I replace my middle unit, my plan is to connect that new Penguin II to the new CCC2 that now controls my forward Penguin II.

The easytouch sure sounds nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYXV927O6_M

Remote control by wifi would certainly be a nice perk. And it's not a whopping 6" wide. 

I had to move my kitchen fan thermostat over to make room for the CCC2, which leaves a big hole I still need to fashion a plug for. 

Cheers,

Walter

Edited September 9, 2020 by wamcneil

[rpasetto]

2 hours ago, wamcneil said:

Hopefully it'll be a while! (unless I can find somebody to buy my old working units...)

I'm pretty confidant that hanging a new Penguin II on the forward CCC2 would strictly be a matter of running one phone cable from the front unit to the mid unit! This would allow replacing just the middle unit with no need for the CCC compatibility board. 

Cheers,

Walter

The reason I asked is I am not sure how the aquahot control will work. Currently the only communication from thermostats is first to the AC unit and, presumably then to the Aquahot.  So the front Therm. controls the front AC via its RJ12 "telephone" cable and somehow gets the signal to the Aquahot for its front zone.  But how the rear thermostat gets its signal to the Aquahot for zones in rear is unclear to me.  Does the cable from the Therm "daisy chain" to rear AC, then to mid AC and then to Aquahot?  Or other possibilities: Therm  -> RearAC -> MidAC -> Aqhot   ... or Therm-> RearAC-> Aqhot-> MidAC ...?  I looked in my wiring diagram book and could not find that info; depending on how control cables are connected seems relevant.

[wamcneil]

25 minutes ago, rpasetto said:

The reason I asked is I am not sure how the aquahot control will work. Currently the only communication from thermostats is first to the AC unit and, presumably then to the Aquahot.  So the front Therm. controls the front AC via its RJ12 "telephone" cable and somehow gets the signal to the Aquahot for its front zone.  But how the rear thermostat gets its signal to the Aquahot for zones in rear is unclear to me.  Does the cable from the Therm "daisy chain" to rear AC, then to mid AC and then to Aquahot?  Or other possibilities: Therm  -> RearAC -> MidAC -> Aqhot   ... or Therm-> RearAC-> Aqhot-> MidAC ...?  I looked in my wiring diagram book and could not find that info; depending on how control cables are connected seems relevant.

The aquahot is actually controlled by the rooftop units. I think the CCC is more of a remote display and temperature sensor than it is a conventional thermostat. 

In my setup, each of the three aquahot zones is connected to its respective rooftop unit. So when a rooftop unit's control board calls for Furnace, it actuates one of the aquahot zones. It doesn't matter how the CCCs are connected to the rooftop units, they will still control the aquahot in the same manner.

Does that make sense? Check out the attached diagram from the Penguin installation manual. This shows the "4 conductor communication cable" (phone cable) from the CCC to the front unit, and then daisy-chained to the back unit. In our case the two furnaces are really two zones on the aquahot, and they are each connected to a rooftop unit, not the CCC. Since my middle unit is already Zone2 on the old CCC, it's got an 'internal temperature sensor' and is ready to be Zone2 on the new CCC2.

So the only change needed to run the middle Penguin II from the forward CCC2 is a 4 conductor communication cable from my front unit to my middle unit. All of the other wiring will be the same.

Edited September 9, 2020 by wamcneil

[rpasetto]

So if I understand this correctly, the AC's are daisy chained with the 4 conductor RJ11 phone type cable and the connection to the aquahot zones is from each AC is another (2-conductor) cable.  I never knew that; never found that in the WD book.

Assuming the rear thermostat goes first to the rear AC and then the mid, sort of the reverse of the above diagram, then the mid AC and its Aquahot zone could be isolated from the rear and controlled by the front CCC2.   That would be desirable in my setup; too bad there's no "new" control board available for the old penguin AC units.

 

[rpasetto]

Here's a page from the 07 Sig WD book which pretty much confirms what you said.  The diagram doesn't appear in you WD book or mine but I doubt too much has changed.  Note the "Bathroom Dometic controller" (in the Penguin II) connects second in the Daisy chain from the Bedroom AC.   Too bad that " EasyTouchRV" thermostat wont work with holder Dometics.  Wondering if any of the "smart" thermostats for houses could be adapted to work with both.  

Dometic-AC-to-Aquahot-wiring-from-2007-Sig-WD.pdf

[Dr4Film]

Because the most common AC's used by Monaco were the Dometic Penguin's which uses a 4 wire DATA cable with RJ-11 connectors, the thermostats that are compatible are VERY limited. Plus, of the 4 wires in the DATA cable, two are for 12 VDC and the other two are used for communication from the thermostat to the cooling/heating devices. I doubt that you will find another thermostat on the market that offers the same type of connections.

[rpasetto]

Most home-type therms are powered by 24vAC (with a few which can work on batteries).  Going from 12v to 24vAC is the smaller problem.  The difficulty is dealing with the control signals.  Home type thermostats usually separate heat and AC controls to different wires but the Dometic Therm's somehow  encode/multiplex their signals to work 2 AC's and heaters (or up to four with CCC2.)   In order to replicate those signals there's a lot about the Dometic therms which is not documented; determining that is the big part of such a project.

There are risks with going with one of the newer RV-thermostats from unknown companies.   Well known co's like Honeywell for example are more likely to be around, and have an available replacement if the old therm goes bad.  

[wamcneil]

7 hours ago, rpasetto said:

Here's a page from the 07 Sig WD book which pretty much confirms what you said.  The diagram doesn't appear in you WD book or mine but I doubt too much has changed.  Note the "Bathroom Dometic controller" (in the Penguin II) connects second in the Daisy chain from the Bedroom AC.   Too bad that " EasyTouchRV" thermostat wont work with holder Dometics.  Wondering if any of the "smart" thermostats for houses could be adapted to work with both.  

 

Yeah, I'm sure it would be a ton of work and recabling to try and adapt a residential thermostat. I don't think the CCC is a thermostat in the conventional sense anyway. It seems more like a remote display for the rooftop unit's circuit board.

If you're wanting to adapt something... I think the easiest approach would be to transplant a Penguin II circuit board into the older unit.  At the end of the day, they are both just straightforward heat pumps, right? Both have one compressor, one fan and a reversing valve. Maybe need to also transplant some additional small parts like evap temperature probe.  

Cheers,

Walter

Edited September 10, 2020 by wamcneil

[rpasetto]

#Walter,  Not planning on doing either but if someone who has the tech info on the Penguin ACs and the CCC's and has done it I'd be interested in knowing.  To adapt the new CCC2 type board to the older AC requires knowing details about the internal electronics of the units and the control signals, or  trial-and-error with a lot of luck.  I have neither.   🙂   Ditto for reverse engineering a thermostat control signals for the Penguins.  After a few years, if EasyTouchRV stays around, that might be a viable option.

 

I learned a lot here.

[wamcneil]

2 hours ago, rpasetto said:

#Walter,  ... To adapt the new CCC2 type board to the older AC requires knowing details about the internal electronics of the units and the control signals, or  trial-and-error with a lot of luck.  I have neither.  

 

I learned a lot here.

I certainly agree on reverse engineering the communication protocols, but swapping the board is different. I’m not sure it would involve any of that!

The old control board has some logic on it and then it engages some relays to actuate one compressor, one fan and a standard reversing valve  The new board has exactly the same OUTPUTS to one compressor, one fan and a similar reversing valve. 

I’d bet money it’d transplant real easy. The control board doesn’t know what it’s relays are connected to and would be happy turning on lightbulbs instead of compressor and fan . The new unit looks like it has two thermistors that the old unit didn’t have, so those parts would be required .

Years ago I put a 3rd party control box and thermostat on a boat heat pump. The control board don’t care what brand of compressor  it’s hooked up to.
I can’t think of any reason the penguin II control board would care if it’s hooked up to an old compressor, or transplanted into a window unit for that matter, as long as the components are similar.

Cheers

Walter