Older 5 KNOB Magnum AGS Failure

[dandick66]

I have only tried to use my AGS one time and it didn’t start.  I had assumed that I had the start voltage set too low (11.0 volts as recommended in the manual).  Anyway, this week I decided to see if it works.  I went to the AGS menu on the remote and executed a test.  The generator started and ran for about a minute as it was supposed to.  Next, I set the start temperature to 65 degrees and put warm air on the thermostat and watched the temperature rise above 65 and the generator started as it was supposed to.  Next, I set the starting voltage to 12.2 volts.  I let the batteries run down to 12 volts and the generator did not start.  I called Magnum tech support and they had me do some troubleshooting and determined that my AGS board was bad.  The part number is ME-AGS-N and the cost is anywhere from$200-$250.  Magnum doesn’t sell direct to consumers.            
                                    
Well, as I sat around Friday night thinking about this board, I remember seeing 3 small relays on it.  So, I went out and tapped on each relay a few times with a screwdriver handle.  Sure enough, Saturday morning when the voltage dropped below 12.2, the generator started.  Since then, it has started and stopped on low voltage for 6 cycles, so I think I “fixed “ the problem.  I decided to get new relays and solder them onto the board, but the relays have been manufacturer discontinued with no compatible replacement.  I found this hard to believe, since these are PCB mounted miniature 12 volt relays.  I’ve attached a photo of the board.  The relays are Potter and Brumfield T7NS5D1-12.  TE Connectivity (formerly known as Tyco) are the ones who told me there is no replacement.  I did find some relays on Amazon that I think will work so I ordered them.  If anyone on here has an idea or opinion, please chime in.  I am not 100 percent confident how long my “fix” will last. 

Dan D, 2012 Diplomat 43DFT.   

 

 

[Jaymor]

Did you ever find a relay that work? I also have a bad one.

[dandick66]

I ordered the ones above from Amazon.  I did not  install them, since my fix is still working.  They will work, though .  The form, fit and rating are correct.  What are your symptoms?  Did you try the screwdriver handle trick?

[Jaymor]

If you dig into the magnum docs they say not to use these dry contacts for anything directly but only to drive another relay. I am sure that's what happened as I installed the ags in my brothers coach and didn't use external relays. It worked for a while then quit. Most likely it arced the contacts. I haven't had a chance to open it up and test it yet. Maybe this week. I just installed a new Victron inverter and raspberry pi computer running Victron software to manage everything and though I should get the ags working also

[96 EVO]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:51 AM, dandick66 said:

I have only tried to use my AGS one time and it didn’t start.  I had assumed that I had the start voltage set too low (11.0 volts as recommended in the manual).  Anyway, this week I decided to see if it works.  I went to the AGS menu on the remote and executed a test.  The generator started and ran for about a minute as it was supposed to.  Next, I set the start temperature to 65 degrees and put warm air on the thermostat and watched the temperature rise above 65 and the generator started as it was supposed to.  Next, I set the starting voltage to 12.2 volts.  I let the batteries run down to 12 volts and the generator did not start.  I called Magnum tech support and they had me do some troubleshooting and determined that my AGS board was bad.  The part number is ME-AGS-N and the cost is anywhere from$200-$250.  Magnum doesn’t sell direct to consumers.            
                                    
 

Dan D, 2012 Diplomat 43DFT.   

 

 

Several years between my coach build and yours, but when I first tested my AGS with low voltage, it didn't start either.

A little investigation with a volt meter in the front run bay, I discovered they were using chassis battery power for the AGS sensing 😖!

Quick rewire, and all was well!

[pwhittle]

https://www.componentonline.com/search?search_key=T7NS5D1-12
 

Paul

[Jaymor]

Thanks! I just ordered the ones off of Amazon. I am in Canada so not as many options.

 

[dandick66]

22 minutes ago, pwhittle said:

https://www.componentonline.com/search?search_key=T7NS5D1-12
 

Paul

Thanks, Paul.  I don’t know why I couldn’t find them 3 years ago!  Hopefully, my “Amazon specials” will do the trick if it acts up again - which reminds me, I should probably do the temp and low voltage tests again.  

[Tom Cherry]

Great followups…..comment and history..

There are TWO AGS’s. The original 4 KNOB AGS was what came on my 2009 Camelot.  That AGS, per Magnum, was not their best effort….

Mine died circa 2012.  Magnum DID, for a brief time, offer a “Repair”.  That repair was the replacement of a relay or “refurbishment” of the 4 Knob AGS.  There was an “unofficial” extension of the warranty.  The cost was, per the tech, around $75.  However the demand exceeded the bench time of the warranty techs.  It was eventually discontinued….so mine was “past” even the special circumstances.

The issue was, 95%, a failed relay.  And even if repaired….it MIGHT happen again.  The techs and electronics designers conceded it was a bad design.  SO…mine sat for a while.  Eventually, I piggy backed it under extended warranty and got a new one,

The tech told me that the NEW AGS-N had been tested….abused….and it was a solid device.  Mine has been used sparingly, but works great.  It is a Plug and Play and easy to install.

Ben’s issue was a Monaco GOOF…and not Magnum. To put in perspective, there has NOT been a massive failure.  Many folks are still using the 4 Knob AGS.  It appeared to be somewhat sporadic….maybe a vendor’s lot that impacted a certain time period.  BUT, Magnum realized they had “overtaxed” the 3 relay design…making it more susceptible to failure….and the new N was a totally different logic and circut and they eliminated the fatal flaw.

That’s what I was told and I sort of “tried” on a few occasions to find a sympathetic tech and hoped he would let me use the “extended warranty” and the explanation was consistent….

OK….CONTACTS….many do not know that Magnum makes a “Auxiliary” start device or pigtail.  You order it…overpriced…but $15.  You unplug the thermocouple input into the AGS.  Then, you select AUXILIARY and use that setup (remote).  If you have a switch or a device that will close or make a circuit across the leads….same as the TEMP going up.  That starts the AGS cycle.  Once started, the programming parameter for RUN TIME is activated and it runs that length.

NOW…..if the contacts are closed….still….after the run time has timed out…BINGO….cycle is repeated….the Genny restarts.

I had a need to run the Genny during an idiotic split NON QUIET time schedule in a National Park.  We left early….stayed late.  I used a programmable 24/7 timer.  The contacts would CLOSE or make the circuit at 9:00 and stay closed for 15 minutes.  The genny would run for 2 hours.

At 4:00….repeat….15 mintues of CLOSED got me 2 Hours of Genny.  Nary a flaw.  I plugged back in thd thermocouple….and still have the timer.

That’s what I know and was told and also figured out HOW to accomplish my unusual need for genny….in a more or easier programmable manner.

let us know if the older AGS is easy to fix.  This was NOT a widespread issue…..so take it at face value from Magnum…

[Dr4Film]

11 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Several years between my coach build and yours, but when I first tested my AGS with low voltage, it didn't start either.

A little investigation with a volt meter in the front run bay, I discovered they were using chassis battery power for the AGS sensing 😖!

Quick rewire, and all was well!

Ben, can you please explain the exact steps I need to take to find out which battery bank my AGS is sensing as my AGS has never worked like it should? The 10K generator does start off of the chassis battery bank.

I did switch out the remote and the older style AGS to the newer version remote and the AGS-N. Then I set it up exactly as recommended by this group but the generator never starts when the house battery bank gets to 12.0 - 12.1 or so VDC.

I haven't taken the time to call Magnum directly to ask for help.

[96 EVO]

Sure!

I'll take a pic of my AGS module a bit later, as I don't remember which connection it is off the top of my head.

[96 EVO]

Third from the left needs to be supplied house battery voltage, rather than chassis voltage like Monaco wired mine!

 

[Dr4Film]

Thanks, Ben. it appears that your AGS setup is different than mine. My AGS-N module is mounted near the Inverter on the ceiling wall in the the very rear pass-thru storage bay. I removed the standard 5-knob AGS module and installed the Magnum AGS-N module which uses all of the very same wires. I made sure to insert the wires in the very same order as they were with the normal 5-knob module.

I guess I will need to probe as you say "the third wire from the left" to see if it is attached to the chassis battery bank or the house battery bank. I have no idea as the wire loom goes into a mass of wires into the ceiling.

[96 EVO]

1 hour ago, Dr4Film said:

 

I guess I will need to probe as you say "the third wire from the left" to see if it is attached to the chassis battery bank or the house battery bank. I have no idea as the wire loom goes into a mass of wires into the ceiling.

Yep!

Easy enough to tell when you have run your house bank down to 11.9-12.0V for testing your AGS!

I "think" you may even get that voltage reading off one of the menu's on your Magnum remote panel. That may be where I noticed the discrepancy, and realized there was a problem somewhere!

Edited May 5 by 96 EVO

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

Thanks, Ben. it appears that your AGS setup is different than mine. My AGS-N module is mounted near the Inverter on the ceiling wall in the the very rear pass-thru storage bay. I removed the standard 5-knob AGS module and installed the Magnum AGS-N module which uses all of the very same wires. I made sure to insert the wires in the very same order as they were with the normal 5-knob module.

I guess I will need to probe as you say "the third wire from the left" to see if it is attached to the chassis battery bank or the house battery bank. I have no idea as the wire loom goes into a mass of wires into the ceiling.

Richard,

PM @Frank McElroy.  He actually improved how his AGS was wired.  He has a 2008 Dynasty.  Wiring is identical.  Monaco was NOT always the smartest.  Our Camelots start the Genny from the HOUSE…Not like yours.

As to Ben’s….they used a wrong harness (one for the DYNASTY)  or someone was stupid or sloppy…. 

[amphi_sc]

Just curious why some people have that AGS voltage knob set so high (12.0-12.1) as when a medium load such as watching TV with some lights on and fridge door opening & closing so the compressor is cooling will often drop my light to medium 45-50 amp draw (not talking about microwave load draw) voltage down to 11.8 underload, but when the load drops to 10 amps thereabouts my "semi" resting voltage recovers to over 12v.  If that knob was set that high on my AGS the generator would be starting under light to medium load when the "semi" resting voltage would still be near 12.2-12.3 thus still 60%-70% battery remaining.  I was under the impression that down to 50% at rest under a no load situation was conservative and the Lifeline 'resting SOC' chart shows green down to 40%.  I use the term "semi resting" to mean the normal parasitic loads are still present thus not a true completely disconnected state for a couple hours to get the real resting voltage.  Adding to the above I have found the voltage displayed on the Magnum remote tends to be slightly lower than the voltage actually measured at the battery terminals.  And often the Aladdin displayed voltage is significantly different than when measured at the battery terminals.

[96 EVO]

Mine is set somewhere mid 11 volts, but, I can think of a reason some would want theirs 12-12.2.

Some coaches use house battery power to start the generator. House bank too low, not enough amps to turn gen over.

[amphi_sc]

22 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Mine is set somewhere mid 11 volts, ...

Is that a picture of yours posted on Sunday morning? The start voltage adjustment knob looks to be way out of calibration to the numbers on the surface if yours is actually starting mid 11's.  Or do those "slots" not have any relationship to the actual settings?  I could reasonably believe Runtime of 2 hrs and Quiet Time 9-6

[96 EVO]

1 hour ago, amphi_sc said:

Is that a picture of yours posted on Sunday morning? The start voltage adjustment knob looks to be way out of calibration to the numbers on the surface if yours is actually starting mid 11's.  Or do those "slots" not have any relationship to the actual settings?  I could reasonably believe Runtime of 2 hrs and Quiet Time 9-6

All of my settings are made on my Magnum remote inside the coach. 

Those little knobs on the AGS module were used in previous years, before the remotes had the ability to setup the AGS.

They do nothing now.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, amphi_sc said:

Is that a picture of yours posted on Sunday morning? The start voltage adjustment knob looks to be way out of calibration to the numbers on the surface if yours is actually starting mid 11's.  Or do those "slots" not have any relationship to the actual settings?  I could reasonably believe Runtime of 2 hrs and Quiet Time 9-6

To clear up a few things....which might not be fully understood...  In the LATER modules...and this impacts the 2012 Dip that was the ORIGINAL failure and probably (most likely)  the Patriot Thunder....and Ben's 2008 Camelot is this way.

When you have a certain level of remote....then the knobs on the AGS are meaningless.  Thus, in the failure case...you could have them randomly set.  When you use the REMOTE and set the AGS parameters...that bypasses all the mechanical or manual programming.  You have to read your MH manual as well as the Manual for your "Rev Level" or version of the remote. 

Thus, tinkering with the knobs on the 2012 does nothing.  NOW..  the TEST BUTTON does work.  BUT, if you want to use the AGS and do the manual programming, you have to DISCONNECT IT...as in PULL the NETWORK cable.  The OTHER cable is the Temp Thermocouple mounted behind the Dometic Thermostat in the interior.

I THINK that you can use it in the manual....or NOT CONNECTED to the REMOTE mode...  BUT, then IF the NETWORK CABLE is connected....it is TOTALLY REMOTE CONTROLLED....

That's the way it works....and Magnum went over this during a troubleshooting.  

I THINK, the even with the NETWORK cable hooked up...  the TEST BUTTON will work.  BUT....IF you use the TEST MODE on the REMOTE....It MIGHT TEST OK...but in reality...it won't work.

OK....A BOGO OR A FREEBIE....IF YOU WANT TO POPERLY USE AND UNDERSTAND YOUR AGS...AND THIS APPLIES TO MAGNUM AND THE 4 KNOB...OR THE NEW AGS-N

NEVER, EVER set the knob nor the Remote setup to lower than 11.7 VDC.  Folks have different opinions...so this is the STRAIGHT SKINNY from Magnum.  Magnum says that what I am about to post is TOO COMPLICATED to put in their manual...and the average owner's eyes would glaze over.  THIS is covered in the BATTERY 101 and the Magnum Setup Files that I wrote...and can be downloaded.

Magnum does NOT guarantee but +/- 10% ACCURACY for the Volt Reading on the Remote.  IT IS IN THE SPECS.

SO, you MUST know the Correlation between the actual VOM Battery Voltage and what Magnum remote displays.  Mine is about 0.15 - 0.20 VDC LOWER on the remote than on the SCREEN.  BUT, the screen value is what drives the AGS...

NOW....when your batteries are running down....and you have them under load....if you measure the Battery voltage....and record the Remote.  That is MY ERROR.  Magnum said it is NORMAL.

Next up.  When a battery is under a normal load, you can read the voltage.  BUT, if you remove the load... then let the battery rest and recover....the voltage will return or recover or POP BACK.  Many phone calls to Trojan and this is a FACT.

SO...if you don't want to get under the theoretical 50% State of Charge (SOC)...  Then most folks will set the Remote to 12.0 VDC.  In reality....they are SHORT CYLING or starting the AGS when their batteries are at perhaps 65 to 70% SOC.  WAY TOO HIGH.  

OK...let that sink in...and again....Trojan and Magnum were my "sources" or the "SHELL ANSWER" man and they BOTH confirmed these two factoids.

It is SAFE to set the Magnum to say 11.8 or so....maybe 11.7 FOR THE AGS Start Voltage.  THAT gets the batteries drained lower.  Magnum says that they don't know HOW bad the batteries are.  IF you do the load tests...and some have, as I did...then knowing the correlation of the voltage readings...  11.8 is safe.  SOME SAY...11.9.  Still to high for me.  BUT, arbitrarily...without understanding HOW the Magnum AGS works and where it gets is signal and also how a battery works....will shorten the life of your batteries.  OK..  every once and a while.  NO ISSUES.  

BUT, if you use the AGS more than a few times each season...or if you really, as you SHOULD, let your batteries drain, under load to 50%, then use 11.8 VDC.

THAT has a second advantage.  By letting your MH actually EXERCISE and discharge or run down your House Bank to a 50% SOC, you do NOT need to do the 3 - 6 months DISCHARGE (3 cycles) that Trojan recommends.  We have members, me included, that get 8 or so longer YEARS from our Trojans buy doing the Preventative Maintenance DISCHARGING.  We use Battery Miser caps so the electrolyte (actually the Distilled Water) does not boil off and is recovered). We rarely add an ounce to each cell.  We load test and our batteries are at 95 - 100% GOOD AS NEW...as in the SOC Specific Gravity and Voltage charge shows that.

THAT is the lesson for today....

 

 

[pwhittle]

The problem on our 2005 Signature is that the 4/0 cables from the batteries to the inverter are each probably 25 ft long, and there is a significant voltage drop across them. As much as 1.5 volts at high amperage. The voltage the Magnum sees is much lower than a voltmeter or what even the BMK reads at the battery.

Anything the Magnum Inverter is programmed to do based on voltage does not take that voltage drop into account.

Paul 

[Dr4Film]

25 Feet Long!!! OMG!!! What were they thinking or I should say, what were they drinking when they decided to do that.

My battery bay is directly behind the tag axle. My Magnum Inverter is two bays in front of the drive axle just forward of the tank/Aqua-Hot bay.

[96 EVO]

Does everybody other than me know what Tom's ... BOGO means?

I asked before, but never got any reply!

[hex_nut]

Ben

BOGO is an acronym for Buy One Get One.  Tom is simply saying it is free advice.

[pwhittle]

2 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

25 Feet Long!!! OMG!!! What were they thinking or I should say, what were they drinking when they decided to do that.

My battery bay is directly behind the tag axle. My Magnum Inverter is two bays in front of the drive axle just forward of the tank/Aqua-Hot bay.

Hi Richard,

Same as on ours.

Measure it out, allowing the distance to the center of the coach to run forward, and see how close your estimate is to mine.

At least with Lithium, we may have an option to put the batteries in that bay.

Paul