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Close Lightening Strike-ISL Will Not Start


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We had a lightening strike near us 10 days ago. I had started the ISL just before that and it started and ran fine. Tried to start it today to move it and the engine turns over fine but it will not fire! Changed the fuel filters. Removed filters looked good. Still will not start with the new filters. This must be an electrical issue. Checked the fuses in the front run bay and could not see a bad fuse but did smell a possible electrical issue, not sure. Tried to find the engine CPU but I do not know where it is. What would prevent the 400 ISL from starting?

We have actually sold the coach and they want to take delivery in 10 days. Must get this resolved. Any thoughts where I can look for the issue. We did have other issues after the lightening but they were all in the living area and have been corrected. This is the first issue with the coach! Please help...

JimG
2006 Camelot

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Cpu is on the passenger side of the engine mounted to the lift pump.  It uses the flow of fuel to cool it.

Can you hear the lift pump run when you turn the key to the run position?

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I have 3 fuse holders in my passenger side rear run bay, there are at least 7 fuses, all have something to do with the engine, diagnostics, or transmission.  You might see if you have similar setup.

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1 hour ago, jacwjames said:

I have 3 fuse holders in my passenger side rear run bay, there are at least 7 fuses, all have something to do with the engine, diagnostics, or transmission.  You might see if you have similar setup.

X2...Also, was the coach plugged into power when it happened?

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It sounds like the lift pump is running. Pulled one fuel filter and it was full. Some diesel running out of the exhaust. I am trying to get a diesel guy over here to check things.

I saw three units in the passenger rear bay. One was labeled transmission and the other two i could not make out. I did not know they were fuses. Will check them.

The coach was plugged into shore power when we got the lightening hit. I believe it was in the next lot from us...Still pretty close!

If it happens to be a CPU issue, does anyone know if they are available and where to get one?

Go figure this has to happen as I am selling it. I became handicapped so I guess it is time to pass it to someone who will use it more! Lived in it for 15+ years so it will be quite a lifestyle change!

JimG
2006 Camelot PAQ

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I looked at my wiring diagram and the fuses in the 3 fuse holders are

7.5 amp Diagnostic

7.5 amp  EngD

10 amp EngM

10 amp Engs

15 amp Trans

7.5 amp EngB

7.5 amp EngC

The engine ECM can be replaced but it has to be programmed with the specific parameters for you rig.  When posting on problems like this I recommend to owners that if they ever take their rig into a Cummins shop for service to get a download of your ECM. 

Also, if you have a Quickserve account https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html

There is an electrical schematic of the engine and the interface of the chassis.

 

Do you have anyway to try and get fault codes?

Edited by jacwjames
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Had a diesel tech here today and he determined that the fuel pump had failed. We actually got it running when he sprayed starter fluid in it and when the small blast was gone, it stopped. The main fuel filter was not filling up either. I do not know if there is a fuse controlling the pump circuit (could not find one) but he said to call Cummins Service (about an hour away) and see if they have a pump and if they can install it (he is going out of town). The folks at Cummins in Ocala tried to find a pump and they said there is no pump for this ISL anywhere in the country! What!! I scheduled a Tech from there to come here Thursday anyway and I said I will try to find a pump, which I did. Getting it from a heavy equipment company to the tune of $3400 with the core charge. Yikes! Also 2nd day shipping plus the Mobile Tech from Cummins coming out here. Guess I should have sold it months ago! Hopefully everything will work and we can deliver it on time. Actually, glad it happened to us (kind of) instead of the new people.

If there is a fuse providing power to the pump, please let me know where it is so I can check it...Thanks for all your responses.

JimG
2006 Camelot PAQ

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Did the transfer pump fail or did the injection pump fail >>>> Big difference.

Did the tech that came out have a computer that he could hook to the coach to see what was going on.  The computer uses the Insite program to communicate with the coach.  It has the ability to do diagnostics on the fuel injection pump.  The should have been able to recover specific codes to pin point the problem. 

Did he provide you the codes. 

Do you know if you engine has the CAPS injection pump?? 

 

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I took a direct lightning strike in 2009.  Insurance covered it.  The coach sat in El Paso for 3 months getting repaired.  The list of replacements included almost everything in the drive train with an electronics board.  ECM, alternator, high pressure fuel pump, radio, backup camera.  The strike also took out my Honda Civic toad, but Honda dealer in El Paso fixed in less than a week.  The bill for the motorhome was $7,500.

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There are auto resetable cicuit breakers  in that rear run bay box too, silver colored, look like a fat fuse. I know for a fact that if the one marked IGN is faulty you will get a no start condtion.

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First, we have talked about calling the insurance company to try to get reimbursed for all the failures we have paid for. Not sure how you prove it was a lightening strike?? Robert92867, how did you get them to cover it?

jacwjames...The Tech that came out did not have a diagnostic computer (he is old school). He listened and could not hear the fuel pump running. I do have a Cummins Tech coming out Thursday morning and I am sure he can plug in and analyze the issue. I have the pump on the way, so I am hoping it is that.

Twomed...I did not see a fuse as you described in that compartment. Will look again.

I am hopeful the transmission is okay! Maybe the Cummins Tech can check that as well.

Keep in mind that the engine will start and run for a very short time when the diesel mechanic shot some starting fluid into it. That is one of the reasons he felt the fuel pump was bad besides the fact that the primary fuel filter was not filling up with fuel.

JimG
2006 Camelot PAQ

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I don't have your engine but when you say the filter is not filling up, did he not mean a problem with lift pump? That should only cost a small fraction of the $3400 you quoted, if in fact it is bad.

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When my lift pump went bad (on a isl), the engine would still start and run.  It did take a little  longer to start. Obviously, starting that way is hard on the injector pump.   I never lost my prime, maybe that is why mine was able to start/run without the lift pump? Either way, the lift pump should be filling the filters. I paid $1k from cummins for the lift pump 2 years ago and installed it myself. Not a fun job. It sits between the block and frame rail.  

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1 hour ago, Ivan K said:

I don't have your engine but when you say the filter is not filling up, did he not mean a problem with lift pump? That should only cost a small fraction of the $3400 you quoted, if in fact it is bad.

X2 on the above.  The lift pump is a ~$500 item with a couple hours to replace. 

 

I'd check all the fuses I listed above.  the 6 are associated with engine/ecm.   The ECM is what controls the lift pump, if the ECM isn't powered up the lift pump wouldn't run.

Edited by jacwjames
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2 hours ago, ncjimgr said:

 Not sure how you prove it was a lightening strike?? Robert92867, how did you get them to cover it?

You probably can't prove it, but my experience has been that they will listen to reason.  They know what lightening can do.  Ask around if anyone else had damage and print a copy of the weather report showing there was a storm in your area on that day.                                                                       

Save your bills showing them you tried to repair it before filing a claim.                                                                                                                             

If it's not major I wouldn't file a claim anyway.

I feel like the others do, that you may have ordered the wrong pump, you have two pumps.  

People have commented  before about a fuse maybe 2 located near the start batteries.  I think they will keep it from even trying to start but i'm not sure.                     

With those in mind does your dash and transmission light up?  I believe those fuses will keep the dash gauges etc from coming alive.

Edited by Ray Davis
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My late FIL had several thousand in damages to a Camray parked under a massive Oak tree.  Lightning hit and split off a limb the size of a normal oak tree.  It stunned one of his yard cats and it was laying face up on the ground when he and his wife looked outside.  The cat was rolled over the next morning. His homeowners paid for the damages based on the Dealer’ estimate that said LIGHTNING from a nearby strike.

Cat disappeared.  He thought it was drug off by one of his bird dogs.  Then a few days later, it came back.  A little “frazzled” and hungry.  Cat recovered….

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Just left a message for Cummins and mentioned the lift pump. Asked if they had one the Cummins Tech could bring with him. The fuel pump should be here today. Would be nice to cover all bases. I will have the Tech do a diagnostic check on the system. It would be great if one of those fuses mentioned were blown, but I did have the first mechanic look at them and he said they looked okay. He did look at them pretty quickly though! Thanks for all the feedback. Will let you know what happens tomorrow!!!

JimG
2006 Camelot PAQ

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I would suggest that you ask the Tech to hook up his computer and check for fault codes.   The Insite program will provide the info and from there Cummins has recommended steps based on the fault codes.   I would not just assume it was the lift or injection pump. 

A good tech should be able figure this out and keep you informed along the way.  No work should be done without your approval.  

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I agree with the computer diagnostics! I will be sure he does that first. There was a question asked if my dash gauges light up when trying to start the engine. Everything looks identical on the dash as it looked before the strike. All the relays kick in as normal (I would know if it sounded different since I have started this rig over 15 years). It just will not fire. I hope to get some good news tomorrow with an engine start (and continuous running)! By the way, the fuel pump arrived today so I have that if needed.

JimG

2006 Camelot PAQ

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Follow-up on the lightening strike...

The engine is now running. The CPU was not reading and when the Cummins Tech unplugged it and read it directly, he could see it. Reinstalled it and it was able to be read through both ports! Very weird. Second, the high pressure fuel pump had one of the pistons stuck to the cylinder head so it could not deliver the high pressure needed for the fuel. He freed it and got that working and the engine started.

Today an Allison mobile Tech come here since now the dash says Check Transmission. It actually is drivable, but the light is on and the shifter indicator blinks and is not solid. He could not see the TCM with the computer. He swapped modules, the TCM and he even took the TCM out and tested it outside the coach. It was okay and so were the modules he removed. Put everything back in and told us there was nothing wrong with the transmission components, except they were not communicating with each other. So he concluded that the lightening strike must have burned some wires in a harness somewhere in the coach. Some of my gauges are also going crazy. So he charged me an unbelievable price to come look at it  and said he could not fix it!!! So here we sit with this and other issues.

So my question to you all is: If you had a lightening strike and you had a similar issue like I have, did you find burned wires or relays and where did you find them? I am going to look in the front run bay tomorrow and look closely. I smell burned electrical "something" in there and I believe I should start there. I do have an insurance inspector coming next week to look things over since, every time I fix something, some thing else goes haywire! If you have any suggestions, please let me know what you think could have burned up! As you could imagine, it has been a pretty bad day!

JmG
2006 Camelot PAQ

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6 hours ago, ncjimgr said:

Follow-up on the lightening strike...

The engine is now running. The CPU was not reading and when the Cummins Tech unplugged it and read it directly, he could see it. Reinstalled it and it was able to be read through both ports! Very weird. Second, the high pressure fuel pump had one of the pistons stuck to the cylinder head so it could not deliver the high pressure needed for the fuel. He freed it and got that working and the engine started.

Today an Allison mobile Tech come here since now the dash says Check Transmission. It actually is drivable, but the light is on and the shifter indicator blinks and is not solid. He could not see the TCM with the computer. He swapped modules, the TCM and he even took the TCM out and tested it outside the coach. It was okay and so were the modules he removed. Put everything back in and told us there was nothing wrong with the transmission components, except they were not communicating with each other. So he concluded that the lightening strike must have burned some wires in a harness somewhere in the coach. Some of my gauges are also going crazy. So he charged me an unbelievable price to come look at it  and said he could not fix it!!! So here we sit with this and other issues.

So my question to you all is: If you had a lightening strike and you had a similar issue like I have, did you find burned wires or relays and where did you find them? I am going to look in the front run bay tomorrow and look closely. I smell burned electrical "something" in there and I believe I should start there. I do have an insurance inspector coming next week to look things over since, every time I fix something, some thing else goes haywire! If you have any suggestions, please let me know what you think could have burned up! As you could imagine, it has been a pretty bad day!

JmG
2006 Camelot PAQ

Some comments....and you probably know this.  The TCM is not documented unless there are some "labels" on the exterior. Monaco used a third party company to program in the parameters and shift points. The shift points were based on some math and science and torques and speeds....  So, as long as it drives and shifts as before...then that is about as good as it gets.

Your next issue is the crazy gages. I HOPE you have a complete set of drawings. Frank McElroy says that we have about every model. Download (you probably already have) and do some digging. The main Chassis Harness (see attachment) is your bible. This shows the harnesses. NOW, we do NOT, to the best of my knowledge, have a harness drawing with individual pins and sources and functions. BUT, if you look on the various other prints, there will usually be a reference to what harness is involved and the daisy chain or how a wire gets from the back to the front or from point A to point B. That will be your best friend.  Note that there is a Resistor on either end.  Is that OK?

Your Gages are simple. You have a dual or side by side "Dash Module".  It is probably a Medallion. There will be a Medallion pint in the package. That shows the various inputs that make the idiot lights work. Do the IDIOT LIGHTS COME ON AS BEFORE?  Very important...  If not, then you will have to go back through what input is messed up. Medallion, after I called them, sent me the "INPUT" harness or the code to the wires. Monaco did NOT use (probably) all the lights.  Therefore that is a good thing to have.  You or someone, I THINK, will have to run continuity checks on the wires that feed or are the input to each gage. NOW, if there is a burned or shorted harness....that is a nightmare. The only way to test this...and it is time consuming is...  FIND the sensor or wire that send the original signal or connects in the rear. Then run a piece of NEW wire, temporarily, from the back to the front and just run it outside on the ground. If you clip off the ends, but they can be respliced, then you can isolate a problem.

Now, my "Redneck" chasing of wires and such when my electricians were trying to fix a system when we had a lightning strike or an overvoltage or a short ....as well as my "Gee...my underground irrigation harness got zapped" experience is this.

Trust your NOSE. If you think something was burned, then look around for evidence....discolored insulation, burned contacts, etc. If you can't locate the component, then make sure that whatever wire(s) are hooked up are the next....and that is time consuming....as in the run a bypass and see. I HOPE you will isolate some issues that can be fixed at each area and NOT have to start chasing wires in a harness or loom.  Wish I could offer more expert or technical advice....but it will become a trouble shooting exercise and you need a good tech....that has done this before. 

Finally, based on your email address and your PUBLIC DATA...(Linkedin and FB), I suspect that your home base is about 1200 miles from M&M RV Electronics in Ohio City, OH. There are PROBABLY many other RV electronic techs. But, we know these folks. They are the ones that the custom coach (Provost and such) use to rewire burned or fried coaches. If you get the insurance going, then you will need a reputable RV Tech that understands circuits and can follow prints and can test harnesses and such....assuming that you don't have one or two Plug and Play components.  There are probably some others closer to you. Ask here or on IRV2 for folks that have had overvoltage or fires and had to reconstruct or chase down the issues....

That's about all the help I can give.  

Main Chassis Harness.pdf

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Posted (edited)

Did you get enough documentation from both Cummins and Allison techs to show the insurance adjuster to plead your case?  Would the Allison tech or shop manager be willing talk to the insurance adjuster, this would help support your claim.

In the mean time I wouldn't do anything to the coach other then inspect.  If you find a problem wouldn't fix it until you get the insurance issue straightened out.

 

Different type of insurance claim but I had road debris take out my radiator.  As soon as I looked at the problem I suspected that this is what caused the radiator damage.  I immediately called my insurance agent and he instructed me to take pictures as soon as the Cummins shop got the radiator out.  So I did and he agreed with me but said it would be up to the insurance adjuster.  So there were multiple phone calls between the adjuster, Cummins, and myself.  At first they baulked at the claim but did send an inspector who ultimately agreed and coveted the +$7K claim.   The Cummins shop foreman was instrumental in this process, they had one on one calls with adjuster.  On sticking point was that I insisted on a complete system flush as I pumped fresh water from my tank through the engine to be able to move it for the tow truck driver to get to me.  The negotiating process took several weeks.  Cummins was very patient. 

Good luck!!!

Edited by jacwjames
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9 hours ago, ncjimgr said:

Follow-up on the lightening strike...

The engine is now running. The CPU was not reading and when the Cummins Tech unplugged it and read it directly, he could see it. Reinstalled it and it was able to be read through both ports! Very weird. Second, the high pressure fuel pump had one of the pistons stuck to the cylinder head so it could not deliver the high pressure needed for the fuel. He freed it and got that working and the engine started.

Today an Allison mobile Tech come here since now the dash says Check Transmission. It actually is drivable, but the light is on and the shifter indicator blinks and is not solid. He could not see the TCM with the computer. He swapped modules, the TCM and he even took the TCM out and tested it outside the coach. It was okay and so were the modules he removed. Put everything back in and told us there was nothing wrong with the transmission components, except they were not communicating with each other. So he concluded that the lightening strike must have burned some wires in a harness somewhere in the coach. Some of my gauges are also going crazy. So he charged me an unbelievable price to come look at it  and said he could not fix it!!! So here we sit with this and other issues.

So my question to you all is: If you had a lightening strike and you had a similar issue like I have, did you find burned wires or relays and where did you find them? I am going to look in the front run bay tomorrow and look closely. I smell burned electrical "something" in there and I believe I should start there. I do have an insurance inspector coming next week to look things over since, every time I fix something, some thing else goes haywire! If you have any suggestions, please let me know what you think could have burned up! As you could imagine, it has been a pretty bad day!

JmG
2006 Camelot PAQ

The engine, transmission, dash gauges and the Bendix antilock braking system are all linked together on the same multiplexed databus.  A failure of any one of these components or one of the buss terminating resistors could cause problems like not being able the "read" the engine or transmission computers.  The dash gauges going "wild" means that they are not communicating with the engine/trans databus.

When Cummins unplugged the engine ECM and found it started to work, what they basically did was to reboot the engine computer.  After this they were able to read engine data on the front and rear data ports. That is very interesting. 

While unplugged from shore power, have you tried disconnecting the batteries (and removing the solar fuses if you have solar) for at least ten minutes to reboot the Bendix ABS, Trans, Gauges, and engine ECM computers?

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