W7BE_Bob Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 On 12/15/2019 at 10:34 AM, Hotrod said: Have you a WH meter on the solar install to see what daily harvest you are achieving ? bill g 06 Dynasty I didn't keep any of that information and it will likely be next summer before that will be possible. I generally expect 2/3 harvest from my flat panels - ie 500W from 750W. 35-45A is about the peak at noonish. One clear summer day I turned on inverter loads achieving 53A at 12.2V or 650W. The battery monitor collects various parameters but since I always have house loads it doesn't indicated the solar performance. I don't recall the MS MPPT-60 having that information but I'll check. However it will report various parameters to a connect PC including A and V and from there I could calculate W or Ah in Excel. I often run the gen in the morning for coffee and charging so I don't need all of the solar output to charge the batteries. A significant value for me is the battery finish charging from 80-100% which hopefully helps the Lifeline 6V life not at 8 years. I could buy/add a watt meter to check solar controller output. I'd need one with a hall effect sensor since at times I can pull 150A and they are not expensive. BTW That 650W is excellent considering it was a hot summer day and panel voltage drops at temperature goes up. To a much lesser degree panel amps increase. The net effect is less panel power with increasing temperature. More power with decreasing temps but prefer cool and but not cold locations. One reason I have wheels. 🤑 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotrod - R.I.P. Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 24 minutes ago, W7BE_Bob said: I didn't keep any of that information and it will likely be next summer before that will be possible. I generally expect 2/3 harvest from my flat panels - ie 500W from 750W. 35-45A is about the peak at noonish. One clear summer day I turned on inverter loads achieving 53A at 12.2V or 650W. The battery monitor collects various parameters but since I always have house loads it doesn't indicated the solar performance. I don't recall the MS MPPT-60 having that information but I'll check. However it will report various parameters to a connect PC including A and V and from there I could calculate W or Ah in Excel. I often run the gen in the morning for coffee and charging so I don't need all of the solar output to charge the batteries. A significant value for me is the battery finish charging from 80-100% which hopefully helps the Lifeline 6V life not at 8 years. I could buy/add a watt meter to check solar controller output. I'd need one with a hall effect sensor since at times I can pull 150A and they are not expensive. BTW That 650W is excellent considering it was a hot summer day and panel voltage drops at temperature goes up. To a much lesser degree panel amps increase. The net effect is less panel power with increasing temperature. More power with decreasing temps but prefer cool and but not cold locations. One reason I have wheels. 🤑 Bob, By Daily Harvest I am talking about Is energy, typically expressed in WH or kWH captured per day. A wh meter can be obtained on amazon for as little as 15-20$ that you can attach to the panel Input to your controller or it’s output. Hall effect is fine but shunt is cheaper and doesn’t take much power. A rule of thumb is 1 kWh per day for each 250w of panels you have on nice days. If you typically use say 6kwh per day of energy, then 1500w of panels would be nice to have. Bill g 06 dynasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotrod - R.I.P. Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 22 hours ago, wobrian@myglnc.com said: OK, I have eight six volt batteries powering the coach including the residential refer., wired in series and parallel. I have deep cycle golf cart batteries rated at 226AH @ 20 H I see where the Shunbin has a 400AHrs. So, if I figured it right, I have 904AH, which divided by two , gives me 450AH of usable power. I see Lifepo4 by Shunbin has a 400AH 12 volt for $1499 w/charger. I'm looking to replace them. Is this a close enough match? I would think it would be plenty, especially if you have flooded batteries currently. Make sure your charger has the ability to support the cc/cv charge algorithm used by lithium batteries. The cc rate would be 100a max and cv of 14.6v. You might also have to set the voltage that it picks back up at. Float would be 13.8v. I see the current magnum chargers support cc/cv with the arc remote. I don’t know much about Victron but think they support lithium too. If you are trying to use an old xantrax I’m not sure that would work to well. Just don’t know. bill G 06 dynasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johncvandoren@gmail.com Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 400AH to replace useable 450AH may be enough, but more is better, especially if you NEED more when boondocking. Have you calculated your demand, as opposed to your supply? I recommend upgrading your inverter/charger. I went with Victron, and have yet to set up AGS. John V 06 Knight 40DFD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody O Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 John and Hotrod, are you guys going to be at the rally? Woody O 2006 Dynasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotrod - R.I.P. Posted January 12, 2020 Author Share Posted January 12, 2020 Supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johncvandoren@gmail.com Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Which rally? Tucson, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotrod - R.I.P. Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 I’ll be in Florida, Tampa super able, SEA fmca and monacoers gathering . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wamcneil Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 On 12/19/2019 at 10:55 AM, W7BE_Bob said: The battery monitor collects various parameters but since I always have house loads it doesn't indicated the solar performance. I don't recall the MS MPPT-60 having that information but I'll check. Here's a video showing the information available from the MPPT-60: Cheers, Walter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ.STIGER Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Ok as i read through this thread. It sounds like i should be able to Replace my Lead batteries with Lithium Batteries and still charge it from my Old Xantrex RV3012GS? With the correct settings. This pending that i get a battery with a good BMS that will disconnect when it needs too. I know i should upgrade the Inverter/Charger. But i feel that the $$ spent on Batteries now will be the better direction and then go for Inverter charger later on. Right now i have 4 225ah 6v Batteries and looking to replace with 1 x 12v 460ah battery. And then add some solar down the road. Not looking for a complete boon docking setup. But something that is reliable and effective. Thought, Comments and experiences? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 No actual experience but from what I read you need to be able to isolate the chassis and house batteries otherwise might have problems with alternator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocketman3 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 With Lithium batteries (in MotorHomes) there are several issues you need to solve (there are several solutions for each issue). Overall, you need at least one good charging source that charges the battery how it wants. Issue#1. The alternator … in most MotorHomes the alternator is connected to the house battery with thick cables through either a BIRD or a dual charger (w/a Duvac alternator). The issue is the battery (when low) can take massive numbers of amps and you can overheat the alternator. This can destroy the alternator. Issue#2. Alternator pt2. If your house battery is full and your drive is not, you could be charging the lithium battery at 14.4-ish volts when it is full for hours on end. This is very hard on the lithium battery. Issue#3. 120v Charger. Your 120v charger may or may not have a lithium setting. If no lithium setting you may need to replace or accept a different charging strategy. Make sure the temperature compensation and equalization are both turned OFF. One issue is when at an RV park the float charge on many chargers is too high. issue#4 solar. Your solar because it is on all the time should have the lithium setting. Issue#5 Boost starting. Many MotorHome have a boost feature - where you can use the house to help start the big diesel engine. The FET’s in the bms cannot handle the large amp draw of the engine starting. You can hit the boost to “recharge” the engine battery, but be sure and turn it off before trying to start the big engine. Issue#6 generator. Many generators use the house battery to start - others use the chassis. You may need to move it, or have a large enough bms (usually several batteries in parallel) to handle the start. Issue#7 - monitoring. The old 4 led battery monitor will no longer work. You should have a shunt based battery monitor. I use a Victron BMV712 (or Smartshunt), Magnum also has a shunt. Good Luck 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ.STIGER Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Rocketman Thanks for the feedback. Issue#1. I do not have the BIRD in my coach. I will need to investigate what the alternator charging setup is. Issue#2. Alternator pt2. I would assume the new BMS in the Lithium battery should counter act this? Issue#3. My older Xantrex system does not have a lithium setting. but a setting that will be close and again relay on the advanced BMS of the battery to stop taking a charge. issue#4 solar. No Problem here. Issue#5 Boost starting. Great recommendation. I have never had success starting the coach in boot starting. I dont think there are enough amps to really turn over the Monster Engine. Issue#6 generator. Just learned my Genny i think runs off the Chassis battery. I Shut off the Chassis battery switch while my Genny was running and it shut down. Leads me to think its run off the Chassis. Issue#7 - monitoring. Not worried about monitoring i dont have any battery monitoring at the moment. But i can add something very easy if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wamcneil Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 I don't remember how configurable the RV3012GS battery charging was... You don't really need a "lithium" setting as long as you can manually set the voltages for absorb and float, and disable equalization. Sure, the BMS will cut off charging at some point, but that cutoff voltage is 'if all else fails' kind of protection and it's a higher voltage than you'll want to charge your expensive lithium batteries. More specifically, the BMS will cut off charging when one cell hits the protection voltage. When approaching the fully-charged state, it'll be the same cell hitting cutoff voltage every time (ie- the one with the lowest capacity) and that one cell will take a beating. The BMS will have some kind of balance function, which helps, but the cells will never be exactly the same capacity and one will spike and hit its upper or lower limit before the others. Have you found diysolarforums.com? lots of great information on lithium batteries. Personally, I have my lithium bank completely isolated from the chassis batteries and intentionally undercharge it a bit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocketman3 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Issue#2 - the bms will not help with this. Because the charging from the alternator is 14.4-ish that is below the bms overvoltage cutoff- so the cells keep “overcharging”. This is very hard - but not deadly to the lithium battery. Issue#3 how close is close… There are some ranges that work with lithium- but the float must be within the proper range (as the battery manufacturer states). Here is what I did: Broke the electric connection so my alternator doesn’t charge the lithium - later added a Victron Dc-Dc charger. My inverter had died so I replaced it with a Victron Multiplus 12/3000 - fully adjustable lithium settings are included. solar - used Victron smartsolar mppt’s- they work great. Boost - haven’t needed it yet - but the plan is to just use it to recharge the battery. Generator - mine came attached to the engine battery - if my generator is on and I start the MotorHome - it kills the generator (and that is hard on the generators electronics). I use the Victron Bmv712 for the monitoring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivylog Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Your 3012 will charge Lithiums using the AGM2 battery setting… no need to replace plus for $200 you can buy a ME-RC50L display that lets you create a Lithium profile. Only issue is it won’t bulk charge until the Lithium’s get down to 40% SOC using the AGM2. I’d already added a $175 additional 100A charger to reduce the generator run time when dry camping. I set to put out 14V once I went Lithium instead of a 3 stage charger. Most of the current $2/AH Lithiums have a weak BMS so yes using the boost is best to charge the engine batteries, but I would still use it when cranking. My alternator doesn’t overheat when charging my 600AH of Lithiums as it’s only putting out 60 amps. Yes, this is contrary to what you read but even starting at 20% SOC with the solar off, still 60 amps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ.STIGER Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Rocketman. I get the DC to DC converter for the alternator. Ivylog - you say the Magnum controller will work the Xantrex Charger/Converter removing the RC-7GS that i currently have? To be able to set lithium profile. But i could use the existing if need be? And if i understand correctly the PowerMax unit is used to charge the Battery more efficiently with out running genny to long? Is this in conjunction with the xantrex still providing charging to the battery or in Lue of? Sounds like this is not a needed item unless you want charge efficiency? So if i where to remove my Lead Batts now and slap in a Lithium replacement. I should be able to be up and running with out additional expense. Other than upgrades for DC/DC charger and AC/DC PowerMax and Magnum controller? Thoughts are if i make the lithium change now my next would be to change the Xantrex to something like Victron an put the $$ there so then i would not have to worry about (AC/DC powermax, MPPT) and only other add would be DC/DC charger and some solar panels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocketman3 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 One video you should probably watch is YouTube AZExpert This Video he talks about installing. He says next weeks will be all about the stuff he does so it charges correctly. He is an RV repair guy in AZ. He has a Beaver about our same age. One thing about Dc-Dc charger - mine is a 30amp - which makes it really slow to recharge if the battery is down a ways - 300 ah down divided by 30amps = 10 hrs of drive time - way too much. But it does help. This summer Victron will have one that is 50amp. If you put in a Victron Multiplus inverter/charger - it will charge at like 100 or 120amps - which on my 544ah battery is about .2C rate - I don’t want to charge any faster than that - and I still have solar going in. So if you go that route you won’t need a charger. What batteries are you getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ.STIGER Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 LOL. Yep watched that video. I like his videos too. That is the battery i am thinking about putting in. I know i have room for 1 of them Maybe two. Right now i have not had any issues with the current batt and amp hrs. But going this route would likely put me right where i need. Not planing on running much on inverter. Have not tried to run AC yet. But my drives when i do are long days close to 6 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocketman3 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I have 544ah of a DIY LifePo4 battery, the Multiplus 12/3000, 1400w of solar for house, 100w solar for chassis battery. I think a great low frequency inverter of about 3000va is just right for the MotorHome. I can run the convention microwave without even thinking about it. Although only one large draw item at a time. Fridge (residential), Starlink, computers just run. i put a MicroAire EZ start on my air conditioners. I can run the bedroom one for about an hour on the inverter, then I either need to turn it off or start the generator- otherwise the battery will not have enough until Solar is good the next day. anyway - enough of my rambling Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 12 hours ago, MJ.STIGER said: That is the battery i am thinking about putting in. I know i have room for 1 of them Maybe two. No longer available on Amazon - not even listed. Vatrer website says the 460Ah is out of stock also. And his video is only 2 days old! Amazon has the Vatrer 230Ah for $690, and still comes with Bluetooth monitoring. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CRNMKYK9/ Not sure how long that price will last, or how long the battery will last (real use vs advertised). Will be interesting to see how AZ Expert addresses charging. Part II coming! - bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ.STIGER Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 2 x of those might fit. I did not do a full measurement. but i think the 460Ah might night be able to fit 2 of them. 800+Ah would be nice. But 400+ would likely be more than enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saflyer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) On 12/12/2019 at 11:22 AM, jacwjames said: I have a RC7 Xantrex inverter, will this be capable of charging the lithium battery? I checked the manual and it has 3 settings, Gel Cell, Lead Acid, and AGM. Which setting would work. I was contemplating adding extra batteries to better handle the additional load of the new Samsung RF18 I just installed. This might be a better overall solution considering the existing space and weight savings. Does the inverter have a costume charging option? And I think you need to be able to disable the equalize function. Lithiums can’t tolerate it. Edited January 31 by saflyer Add information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 https://www.wral.com/story/battery-from-tesla-explodes-in-cary-home-firefighters-say-danger-exists-with-any-car-battery/21256187/ This incident received some publicity locally as the [edited} RDU Airport code) for RALEIGH DURHAM UNITED which includes Chapel Hill, NC and the RTP (Research Triangle Park or "Silicone Valley of the EAST) area is one of the fastest growing markets for “EV” and we, supposedly, have a mega digital/electronics population. I started a topic on one of my Alma Mater’s sports blogs when we had a petrol crisis a few years ago….and it quickly morphed into EV’s. All of that to say, our membership is fortunate in that we have great resources here. However, since two close church friends are high in the echelon of the Raleigh and Durham fire departments, they keep me posted on the training and incidents related to Lithium batteries….from Scooters to EV’s. Many folks are buying lower cost Lithium’s and converting FLA or AGM applications to Lithium….kits are commonly sold….ironically, by Tesla specific sites. The “low voltage” Tesla batteries are used for “basic 12 VDC” functions on a Tesla….and, I was told, many other manufacturers have a similar configuration. Tesla was chided on social media for an FLA and then upgraded ($175 to $575) to a Lithium Deep Cycle later on. The “firemen’s” texts revealed that the owner watched a YouTube and actually read the manual on removal. Much like changing any vehicle’s battery. But, he purchased or had the basic $25 6/12 V 2/6 A car charger. Thus a kitchen in a multimillion home was damaged, heavily. Discussions like these help to continue to educate me….. Just thought, even though, not MH, it might benefit someone or prevent an incident or injury…. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ.STIGER Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just checked and my battery bay will fit 2 of the Vatrer 230AH so i could run 460Ah. I just have to connect them two together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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