Lithium Batteries

[Paul J A]

7 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

https://www.wral.com/story/battery-from-tesla-explodes-in-cary-home-firefighters-say-danger-exists-with-any-car-battery/21256187/

This incident received some publicity locally as the [edited} RDU Airport code) for RALEIGH DURHAM UNITED which includes Chapel Hill, NC and the RTP (Research Triangle Park or "Silicone Valley of the EAST) area is one of the fastest growing markets for “EV” and we, supposedly, have a mega digital/electronics population.  I started a topic on one of my Alma Mater’s sports blogs when we had a petrol crisis a few years ago….and it quickly morphed into EV’s.  All of that to say, our membership is fortunate in that we have great resources here.

However, since two close church friends are high in the echelon of the Raleigh and Durham fire departments, they keep me posted on the training and incidents related to Lithium batteries….from Scooters to EV’s.

Many folks are buying lower cost Lithium’s and converting FLA or AGM applications to Lithium….kits are commonly sold….ironically, by Tesla specific sites.  The “low voltage” Tesla batteries are used for “basic 12 VDC” functions on a Tesla….and, I was told, many other manufacturers have a similar configuration.  Tesla was chided on social media for an FLA and then upgraded ($175 to $575) to a Lithium Deep Cycle later on.

The “firemen’s” texts revealed that the owner watched a YouTube and actually read the manual on removal.  Much like changing any vehicle’s battery.  But, he purchased or had the basic $25 6/12 V 2/6 A car charger.  Thus a kitchen in a multimillion home was damaged, heavily.

Discussions like these help to continue to educate me…..

Just thought, even though, not MH, it might benefit someone or prevent an incident or injury….

 

 

"This incident received some publicity locally as the RDU & RTP area".

Could you post what the acronyms. RDU & RTP represent.

EDITED OP and the above quote.

 

 

[RNMCBR]

This may be cautionary for some. My friend here at Quartzsite installed some Lifepo batteries into his 2006 Monaco Dynasty with a Magnum pure sine inverter charger. When connected to solar the magnum charger disconnects. It works fine in all other scenarios. After talking to Victron, Battle Borne and Magnum, he was told that the BMS in some of the cheaper batteries can cause this problem. Apparently, it can cycle/disconnect momentarily then when reconnecting, cause a spike that the Magnum recognizes as over voltage. This causes the magnum charger to shut off. His Magnum will continue to attempt charger, but then shut off, repeating the cycle over and over. 
interestingly, all 3 of the above sources independently said the same thing. They all said it was not the solar controller even though is another brand. Hopefully no one else will get caught by this. 

Oops, very sorry. I said “charger” when I should have said “inverter”.

[RoadTripper2084]

Here's a write-up I did when I converted Blue Thunder to a single 280Ah LiFePO4 battery you might find of interest (on that other forum):

Setup Overview

• Removed the lead-acid 8D house batteries and installed a new self-assembled 280Ah LiFePO4 battery, with 200A Bluetooth-enabled BMS next to the converter/inverter in the service bay (indoors, heated).
• Disconnected the house circuit completely from the chassis batteries. This involved removing the oem battery isolator, chassis battery maintainer, and the "big boy" boost solenoid (used to boost the chassis battery from the house battery) from the rear engine bay electrical panel.
• Kept the oem Freedom Model 20 Inverter/Converter (2000w, 100A 3-stage battery charger, no Lithium charge profile), set it to use its lowest voltage gel battery charge profile (14.1v absorption, 13.8v float, no equalization).
• Installed a 60A Renogy DC-DC charger in the rear electrical panel, between the chassis batteries and the house battery circuits (200A alternator connected to the chassis batteries).
• Rewired the oem 80w solar panel to charge the chassis batteries, instead of the house batteries (keeps the chassis batteries charged will parked).

Pros

• The battery output is amazingly stable, no flickering or dimming of lights when high loads are turned on or off, unlike with the lead acid batteries.
• The battery output amperage is amazing. We can run our microwave or convection oven for 30mins to bake pizzas for dinner without issue. The only thing we don't run off the battery are the rooftop A/C units, and the electric hot water heat (use propane instead).
• The battery charges quickly, easily recharging during a travel day off the 60A DC-DC charger, and even faster (100A) when plugged in or running the generator. One time when travelling we had the generator running to operate the A/Cs and were getting a combined 160A charging from both the DC-DC and converter.
• In normal to warm weather the battery remains at optimal usage temps. generally between 20c and 30c in the service bay, even when it is cooler outside.
• The bluetooth BMS is a must-have for this simple configuration. With it I can monitor charge/discharge cycles/values, set warning notifications for certain events (cell over/under-charge cutoff, high/low temp cutoff, etc.). I am also able to manually disable charging using the app. if I want the battery to remain at say 70% charge because the coach will be parked for a week or two until the next use. I can also completely disable the battery input/output for storage. Without the BMS, I'd need to add a smart shunt, at the least.
• Using the tiny 80A (when it was new, 25 years ago!) solar panel to charge the chassis battery is working really nicely, at least in the peak summer months. I can park the rig, leave the chassis battery disconnect connected, and not worry about the chassis battery dying (of course, I can't leave the headlights on or anything with load).
• With the house battery installed next to the converter in the service bay I am able to repurpose it's tray in the semi-sheltered battery compartment which I now use for storing extra fluids (oil, anti-freeze, etc.) and filters.

Cons / Issues

• When I first configured the Freedom 20 converter/inverter I used a lightly higher voltage charge profile; 14.4v absorption, 13.8v float. This caused a couple of high-temp shutoff events on the BMS itself, reaching 80.6c. It also had a cell high voltage cutoff event. I think the BMS could use improved airflow over its cooler for sure. Lowering the inverter charge voltage profile to 14.1v absorption, 13.8v float has eliminated both of those issued thus far.
• The way the Freedom 20 converter works, when plugged in to shore or generator power, it actually doesn't provide 12v DC power other than via the battery charger. So if I manually turn off the charger, all 12v DC power is supplied from the battery alone. If I charge the battery and leave the charger on, it reduces the 12v DC output from the battery to 0 amps while it is charging, but eventually it lowers or stops charging current enough that the battery is once again providing the bulk of the 12v DC power. This isn't a deal-breaker, but it does mean I need to keep at least a half-open eye on my battery charge level while plugged in for multiple days in a row and eventually initiate the charger to recharge it. I suppose the converter would automatically enter a new charge cycle when the battery voltage got low enough, but I haven't witnessed this occurring yet so am not certain that it would do so before the BMS low-voltage cutoff would kick in.
• Having no boost solenoid means that I have no way to charge the chassis battery from the house battery. The solar panel negates this requirement, at least so far in the summer months. If I ever do flatten the chassis battery by leaving the headlights on or something, I can use jumper cables to provide a boost charge to the chassis to try to recover them before attempting to start as a temporary measure. Or get a boost from another vehicle/toad vehicle.

Overall I'm very pleased with my results thus far. The system is probably slightly more labour intensive in terms of my needing to manage the battery via the BMS app regularily than a complete new install with smart shunts, proper modern LiFePO4 charger, etc. would be (or maybe those would be worse, actually?), but I don't mind it at all and I love the attributes of the LiFeP04 battery (100% charge/discharge, zero physical maintenance, fast charge/discharge, stable output even under load, etc. etc.)
 

 

Edited February 2 by RoadTripper2084

[David Pratt]

Interesting Article on Lithium-Ion Battery's

Mother Nature rode into O’Hare International Airport on the gales of an El Nino-inspired blizzard, leaving some hapless Tesla drivers stranded at charging stations in Chicago’s western suburbs last week.

Scores of the trendy and battery-dead, EVs were left abandoned and unable to be recharged with temperatures dipping below zero. 

The problem with the lithium batteries used in Tesla and other EVs is that they function poorly at low temperatures, as do other electrical batteries in general.

The untimely arrival of a severe cold front dropped temperatures to below zero across Chicago Land, making it virtually certain the rental Teslas and other EVs would become early victims of the weather, with their technical limitations.  

What could go wrong?  

Delving into the subject reveals intrinsic shortcomings with the lithium-battery technology used both in advanced Teslas and their competition. 

Tesla owners are reminded to bring their vehicles into a heated garage overnight, along with their tender house plants, when forecasts call for frost.

More importantly, the Tesla owner’s manual cautions never to recharge a battery when the vehicle is stone-cold. They may require pre-heating.

Tesla engineers incorporate devices intended to prevent battery damage from forced charging under adverse conditions. A damaged battery could easily erupt into flames or even explode, as has been known to happen previously.

At this point, let’s consider the inner workings of a lithium-ion battery and why it fails to recharge properly at low temperature. 

The Li+-ion battery has served us well for more than the 30 years, since its introduction in the 1990s.

Just what is this modern marvel? 

Recommended

Today's Li-ion batteries are are somewhat better than their early counterparts but can spontaneously burst into flame after prolonged heavy use or too rapid recharging.

Chemical batteries have been around for more than two centuries. The earliest ones bore the names of Galvani, Volta and Daniell. But they were invented primarily for use in a laboratory setting.

The lead-acid battery is a common example of an early-arriving rechargeable battery that has also long served by providing the electrical needs of conventional automobiles and in many other applications.

Unfortunately, the lead-acid battery is far too heavy for the limited power it delivers. The dowdy Emerson electric car of the early 20th Century had lost out in competition with gasoline- and diesel-engine powered vehicles by 1920. It was sorely limited in speed and range.

What happens within an individual Li+-ion cell depends on the efficient migration (shuttling back and forth) of individual lithium ions within the cell. Simultaneously, an electrical current (mobile electrons) travels via the external circuitry connecting the two terminals of the battery's electrodes.

The flow of electrons performs useful work by energizing a device like a smart phone or an electric motor. Electrons are driven back in the opposite direction by the DC charging current (after being rectified) from the power grid at a recharging station.  

If the internal temperature of a lithium-ion battery drops to about 32 degrees F., free movement of the migrating lithium ions within the cell is impeded and the charging process is slowed.

Charging is adversely affected if and whenever the lithium metal is deposited on the graphite surfaces (anode matrix) forming needle-like micro-crystals of lithium. Permitted to accumulate, these needles will puncture the membrane separating the cathode and anode compartments.

Should this happen, a dangerous short-circuit may ignite a fire, as hot flammable organic solvents leak and become exposed to air. Cold recharging also creates structural defects in the electrode materials that will eventually degrade efficient battery operation. 

What happens in greater detail within the cell is proprietary information. Let’s consider a somewhat simplified picture.

A fully charged lithium-ion cell will have the cathode, consisting of a metal oxide (of cobalt, nickel, iron or some combination) in a condition to accept the Li+ ions migrating from the anode (a graphite particle matrix with lithium atoms distributed within its plate-like graphite layers). When the external circuit is connected by “turning on” the connected device, Li+ ions begin to flow internally from the graphite matrix toward metal oxide particles in the cathode. 

Simultaneously, electrons leave the graphite matrix through a collector and continue via the outside circuit driving a motor (or other device).

Those electrons continue through the motor and then back to the cathode where they enter the metal oxide to alter the cobalt to a less positive state, off-setting the positive charge of the Li+-ions that have entered the cathode's metal oxide lattice.

Recharging the cell (or the stack of individual cells making up the battery) involves the reversal of the above-described flow of Li+-ions and electrons.

On arrival back at the anode surfaces through the electrolyte matrix, the Li-ions enter the graphite structure (intercalate), accept an electron, and again revert to a neutral Li atom bound within the graphite structure.

In the process the cathode oxide has released an electron (no longer bound by an offsetting positive charge of the departed Li+-ion) that is routed back through the external circuit to the anode.

The Li+-ions thus retrace their paths. When sufficient recharging has taken place, the voltage of the cell begins to rise and a monitoring device shuts down the operation before damage occurs from overcharging.

If charging were allowed to proceed to a state of overcharge, damage would occur with loss of functional cell life and rendering the battery susceptible to fire.

Engineers and EV manufacturers are acutely aware that attempting to recharge a depleted battery under extreme cold may also result in serious damage.

The same Tesla drivers who were caught up in frigid weather near O’Hare Airport two weeks ago in dead EVs that refused to take a charge were among many unhappy individuals unappreciative of Mother Nature that day.

She is capable of capriciously delivering blizzards and ice storms (or near-record warmth) on the wings of the latest El Nino pattern now firmly in place over the Pacific Ocean, despite the wishes of the EV industry and its powerful political backers.  

William D. Balgord, Ph.D., geochemistry, heads Environmental & Resources Technology, Inc. in Middleton, WI.

 

 

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, David Pratt said:

Interesting Article on Lithium-Ion Battery's

Mother Nature rode into O’Hare International Airport on the gales of an El Nino-inspired blizzard, leaving some hapless Tesla drivers stranded at charging stations in Chicago’s western suburbs last week.

 

Scores of the trendy and battery-dead, EVs were left abandoned and unable to be recharged with temperatures dipping below zero. 

 

The problem with the lithium batteries used in Tesla and other EVs is that they function poorly at low temperatures, as do other electrical batteries in general.

 

The untimely arrival of a severe cold front dropped temperatures to below zero across Chicago Land, making it virtually certain the rental Teslas and other EVs would become early victims of the weather, with their technical limitations.  

 

What could go wrong?  

 

Delving into the subject reveals intrinsic shortcomings with the lithium-battery technology used both in advanced Teslas and their competition. 

 

Tesla owners are reminded to bring their vehicles into a heated garage overnight, along with their tender house plants, when forecasts call for frost.

 

More importantly, the Tesla owner’s manual cautions never to recharge a battery when the vehicle is stone-cold. They may require pre-heating.

 

Tesla engineers incorporate devices intended to prevent battery damage from forced charging under adverse conditions. A damaged battery could easily erupt into flames or even explode, as has been known to happen previously.

 

At this point, let’s consider the inner workings of a lithium-ion battery and why it fails to recharge properly at low temperature. 

 

The Li+-ion battery has served us well for more than the 30 years, since its introduction in the 1990s.

 

Just what is this modern marvel? 

 

Recommended

 

Today's Li-ion batteries are are somewhat better than their early counterparts but can spontaneously burst into flame after prolonged heavy use or too rapid recharging.

 

Chemical batteries have been around for more than two centuries. The earliest ones bore the names of Galvani, Volta and Daniell. But they were invented primarily for use in a laboratory setting.

 

The lead-acid battery is a common example of an early-arriving rechargeable battery that has also long served by providing the electrical needs of conventional automobiles and in many other applications.

 

Unfortunately, the lead-acid battery is far too heavy for the limited power it delivers. The dowdy Emerson electric car of the early 20th Century had lost out in competition with gasoline- and diesel-engine powered vehicles by 1920. It was sorely limited in speed and range.

 

What happens within an individual Li+-ion cell depends on the efficient migration (shuttling back and forth) of individual lithium ions within the cell. Simultaneously, an electrical current (mobile electrons) travels via the external circuitry connecting the two terminals of the battery's electrodes.

 

The flow of electrons performs useful work by energizing a device like a smart phone or an electric motor. Electrons are driven back in the opposite direction by the DC charging current (after being rectified) from the power grid at a recharging station.  

 

If the internal temperature of a lithium-ion battery drops to about 32 degrees F., free movement of the migrating lithium ions within the cell is impeded and the charging process is slowed.

 

Charging is adversely affected if and whenever the lithium metal is deposited on the graphite surfaces (anode matrix) forming needle-like micro-crystals of lithium. Permitted to accumulate, these needles will puncture the membrane separating the cathode and anode compartments.

 

Should this happen, a dangerous short-circuit may ignite a fire, as hot flammable organic solvents leak and become exposed to air. Cold recharging also creates structural defects in the electrode materials that will eventually degrade efficient battery operation. 

 

What happens in greater detail within the cell is proprietary information. Let’s consider a somewhat simplified picture.

 

A fully charged lithium-ion cell will have the cathode, consisting of a metal oxide (of cobalt, nickel, iron or some combination) in a condition to accept the Li+ ions migrating from the anode (a graphite particle matrix with lithium atoms distributed within its plate-like graphite layers). When the external circuit is connected by “turning on” the connected device, Li+ ions begin to flow internally from the graphite matrix toward metal oxide particles in the cathode. 

 

Simultaneously, electrons leave the graphite matrix through a collector and continue via the outside circuit driving a motor (or other device).

 

Those electrons continue through the motor and then back to the cathode where they enter the metal oxide to alter the cobalt to a less positive state, off-setting the positive charge of the Li+-ions that have entered the cathode's metal oxide lattice.

 

Recharging the cell (or the stack of individual cells making up the battery) involves the reversal of the above-described flow of Li+-ions and electrons.

 

On arrival back at the anode surfaces through the electrolyte matrix, the Li-ions enter the graphite structure (intercalate), accept an electron, and again revert to a neutral Li atom bound within the graphite structure.

 

In the process the cathode oxide has released an electron (no longer bound by an offsetting positive charge of the departed Li+-ion) that is routed back through the external circuit to the anode.

 

The Li+-ions thus retrace their paths. When sufficient recharging has taken place, the voltage of the cell begins to rise and a monitoring device shuts down the operation before damage occurs from overcharging.

 

If charging were allowed to proceed to a state of overcharge, damage would occur with loss of functional cell life and rendering the battery susceptible to fire.

 

Engineers and EV manufacturers are acutely aware that attempting to recharge a depleted battery under extreme cold may also result in serious damage.

 

The same Tesla drivers who were caught up in frigid weather near O’Hare Airport two weeks ago in dead EVs that refused to take a charge were among many unhappy individuals unappreciative of Mother Nature that day.

 

She is capable of capriciously delivering blizzards and ice storms (or near-record warmth) on the wings of the latest El Nino pattern now firmly in place over the Pacific Ocean, despite the wishes of the EV industry and its powerful political backers.  

 

William D. Balgord, Ph.D., geochemistry, heads Environmental & Resources Technology, Inc. in Middleton, WI.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes,

Quite a dissertation. I would only add, since I am involved in another group and we have a "Gas Shortage" topic that morphed beyond the wildest expectations and we have a lot of tech info as there is a really sharp Tesla owner who's son is a NC State Electrical Engineering Doctoral Student.  He and I blog back and forth.

The writer, to me, failed to mention or address one common misconception.

The TESLA battery (the main DRIVE battery) has a built in charger...that is what makes them SO EXPENSIVE.  They are designed to operate, more economically, off of a Tesla Wall Connecter. Nothing fancy, other than some exotic electronics. They are a TRANSFER SWITCH. When all the criteria is met...then you can charge. Hearing my friend's tale of he and his son setting up theirs is a hoot.  He summed it up....if you thought programming your old VCR was tough....this might NOT be for you!

Anyway...if you use the Wall Connector, then the battery will start to charge. YES...it HELPS to have it conditioned.  BUT IT WILL CHARGE....the Connecter is just the Transfer Switch or contactor and it is fed by a 65 Amp breaker. You can charge MOST Tesla's in 6 - 8 hours.

NOW....the folks in Chicago were not "attuned" to reading the manuals.  There are warnings...  The High Voltage (650 VDC or may be higher now) of the Super Chargers actually BYPASS the built in Tesla Battery Charger. BTW...they are 1000 KVA AND have 4 stations. SO, when you see 4 Tesla Chargers....think of looking at 60 Average Size Homes.  That number is debated.

BUT...  BOTTOM LINE.  The Super Chargers pump in PURE DC and the control circuits on each station monitor the battery...so THUS, they Bypass the BUILT IN CHARGER.

BUT, the battery HAS to be conditioned or warmed up...  I WAS told that there is a warning light on the display or you get an error message on your phone...  CHARGER WILL NOT WORK.  BUT, I don't know that for a fact.

FROM TESLA's OWN SITE... This is all written of course, for "normal ambient temperatures"....no one READS....

Tesla recommends using Trip Planner to navigate to a charging location for at least 30-45 minutes before arrival to ensure optimal Battery temperature and charging conditions. If the drive to the charging location is less than 30-45 minutes, consider preconditioning the Battery before driving (see Before Driving).

Another site says it simply....  

To ensure optimal charging speeds and performance, it is recommended to precondition your Tesla battery for 30-45 minutes before charging, taking into account outside temperatures. In colder weather conditions, longer preconditioning times are necessary, while warmer batteries will charge more quickly.

SO, all the motorists that wanted to or failed to PRECONDITION their TESLA batteries...THEY were UNABLE to get the SUPERCHARGERS to work...  Had they driven HOME, then the wall connectors, since they use the internal charger would, eventually says my friend, recharge the batteries.

For those that know my personality...  OMG...  You mean I have to READ the MANUAL....  I want it to work NOW and NOT have to do any research or reading... and if it DOESN'T....I want a quick one sentence answer to fix that....MY LIFE IS TOO HECTIC...  LOL...

[wamcneil]

2 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Yes,

Quite a dissertation....

Ha! That's funny.🤐

[MJ.STIGER]

@RoadTripper2084 Thanks for the post. It was a good read and nothing too crazy to be able to deal with or handle. 

I think i have decided to go with 2 x 230Ah but i know i can start with 1 and migrate to 2. But after seeing the price jump on Amazon almost a 100 per unit. Might end up with 2 and get direct for the vendor. 

I like the thought of doubling my Ah how ever i have not run by current batteries to the end. So figuring i dont consume more than 75-100Ah on average. Then going to a total of 460AH should give me a large overhead for the worst case scenario. 

Add that the batts that i am looking at are in a metal housing and not plastic. Gives a bit more reassurance of any failures not to mention the cargo bay my current batteries are in are lined with metal aside from the access door.   

 

UPDATE - Placed my order on Vendors Site vs Amazon Saved about $300 on the order. Now on to the next steps when they arrive. 

https://www.vatrerpower.com?sca_ref=5402281.De58wQVXXY

Edited February 3 by MJ.STIGER

[Paul J A]

WALL Street Journal article this week.

GM is the latest automaker to signal that it's returning to the plug-in hybrid. The vehicle type seemed to be on its way out until late last year. That's when EV sales began slowing both in the U.S. and abroad, sending automakers back to the plug-in hybrid.

[96 EVO]

1 hour ago, Paul J A said:

WALL Street Journal article this week.

GM is the latest automaker to signal that it's returning to the plug-in hybrid. The vehicle type seemed to be on its way out until late last year. That's when EV sales began slowing both in the U.S. and abroad, sending automakers back to the plug-in hybrid.

Not for me!

If I go electric, I'm going full electric!

Why maintain a ICE!

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Not for me!

If I go electric, I'm going full electric!

Why maintain a ICE!

Sort of off topic.  The Prius, over the years has been the most reliable and easy to repair and also has a “reasonable” battery cost.   That is from many independent rating services….including Consumer Reports.  The present technology level for full bore EV is not quite ready for Prime Time. Volvo is getting ready to spin off their joint venture, Polestar.  Stock price is now at 2% of IPO or the trading range.  Hertz is wholesaling one third of their EV fleet…..20K cars.  They cite reliability and costs and customer dissatisfaction.

BUT, not all Hybrids are successful.  Local, LARGE Benz, dealer has 3 “PODS” units in the back of the parking lot.  They store all the defective hybrid  batteries there,  some models have gone through 3 batteries, warranty, in a year and these models are depreciating faster than any ICE, except maybe the Edsel or Yugo.  Not some internet rumor.  Buddy’s daughter is engaged to the service manager.  He gave my friend a couple to disassemble….curiosity factor.

BUT, just 30 minutes ago, I circled the parking lot after dropping off my daughter and fiance from a basketball game.  There is a 3000 KVA (3 X 1000] instillation Tesla Super Charger with 12 stations.,  10 of the slots had vehicles.  I SUSPECT they were brought in earlier and dropped off….all were dark.  

I fuss about costs and upkeep on our behemoths…..they are cheap, as far as maintenance per mile compared to an EV.  8 - 10 years out of a Battery…..and the replacement is almost, now, $20K.  That is for a functional sedan or SUV. I have never spent anything like that, totally, on any vehicle.  A short block, installed, can be done for half that.  Even putting a new engine in my wife’s 2014 ATS would be less than $8,000 says the GM dealer and they seldom see a total failure, 

I want an E-Ray.  It is a Hybrid.  Has the same ICE and rear wheel drive as the stock C8 Vette.  But, they steal the front “trunk” (mid engine) space.  Put in a hopped up Hybrid battery.  It powers the front wheels.  It is a “4 WD” Vette.  You hit it….right at 2 second Zero-60.  Then the ICE recharges the Hybrid.

I have considered swapping or selling my C7…but I can barely, with launch control, “handle” my Z-51 C7….which is under 4 seconds.  LORD help me at 2 seconds.

That’s my take.  Feedback from EV owners….only 20 - 25% would do it again…..and Ford has moved 2/3’s of the Lightning workers to the ICE F150.  Demand for them is up. Heavily discounting the EV’s…

BUT….go for it….get a Flat Tow….and be the “talk” of the CG….

 

[Paul J A]

Sort of off topic too. I drove a Prius 4 years as a volunteer, provided by a non profit . They provided transportation for a variety of  ppl who needed it. Very reliable vehicle, a little cramped for 4 adults. 

I will certainly keep and maintain my ICE powered vehicles. 

[RoadTripper2084]

As an off-topic counter-point, I bought a heavily abused 2016 KIA Soul EV+ from a Copart (wrecker) auction in 2019 for $8900 Cdn.  I had no idea what the actual mileage was, but it had been used as a taxi in Montreal and had a missing side window and a dented passenger door. lol.

I knew the EV system warranty was good for 10 years or 170,000 KMs, so I took the chance that it would be less mileage than that (and it was, barely).

Long story short, I had it shipped on a truck across the country to Alberta and when I went to pick it up from the lot it wouldn't "start". Basically nothing worked. A few minutes searching through the fuse box showed some missing fuses and a very important relay. Got those, and boom, car ran fine!  Oh, and the window was just stuck in the down position, was able to pull it up a few inches and it works fine. 😎

After 2 days of intensive cleaning/shampooing/detailing it became my daily driver.  Back when I was commuting to the office everyday I calculated it cost me 5X less to pay for the electricity at home to charge it each night vs gas in my previous vehicle (manual transmission RAV4).  It has a max range of about 130km (90 miles) in the summer and maybe 90 km (60 miles) in the worst case winter conditions.  Which is still enough for all but the longest trips I would take just running around town.  I don't use it for roadtrips. Range-anxiety?!  I like to call it "range anticipation!" 😉 

In 2020 I had the battery replaced under factory warranty due to degradation, these 1st gen KIA EVs had some issues in that dept. The new stuff is far more advanced in terms of not just battery chemistry but also cooling/heating systems, charging logic, etc.

Car is so quiet I can hear the brake callipers snapping shut when stopping at lights, and I can pull away from just about anything when the light turns green - love it!

 

 

 

Edited February 5 by RoadTripper2084

[PTTech]

On 1/30/2024 at 8:04 PM, MJ.STIGER said:

LOL. Yep watched that video. I like his videos too.  

That is the battery i am thinking about putting in. I know i have room for 1 of them Maybe two. 

Right now i have not had any issues with the current batt and amp hrs. But going this route would likely put me right where i need. Not planing on running much on inverter. Have not tried to run AC yet. But my drives when i do are long days close to 6 hours. 

FYI, I bought the LiTime 400ah 12 volt battery. One nice thing about it is it has a max discharge rate of 250 amps so one battery can do the work of two. You can run a 2000 watt inverter off one battery and have no extra cables. I mounted mine in the rear closet right over the rear run bay so it would not be susceptible to freezing temps. I think it was about $1400 on Amazon. Still on the bubble about using a dc-dc charger or just running it off the BigBoy. 

 

[96 EVO]

On 2/5/2024 at 12:45 PM, RoadTripper2084 said:

As an off-topic counter-point, I bought a heavily abused 2016 KIA Soul EV+ from a Copart (wrecker) auction in 2019 for $8900 Cdn.  I had no idea what the actual mileage was, but it had been used as a taxi in Montreal and had a missing side window and a dented passenger door. lol.

I knew the EV system warranty was good for 10 years or 170,000 KMs, so I took the chance that it would be less mileage than that (and it was, barely).

Long story short, I had it shipped on a truck across the country to Alberta and when I went to pick it up from the lot it wouldn't "start". Basically nothing worked. A few minutes searching through the fuse box showed some missing fuses and a very important relay. Got those, and boom, car ran fine!  Oh, and the window was just stuck in the down position, was able to pull it up a few inches and it works fine. 😎

After 2 days of intensive cleaning/shampooing/detailing it became my daily driver.  Back when I was commuting to the office everyday I calculated it cost me 5X less to pay for the electricity at home to charge it each night vs gas in my previous vehicle (manual transmission RAV4).  It has a max range of about 130km (90 miles) in the summer and maybe 90 km (60 miles) in the worst case winter conditions.  Which is still enough for all but the longest trips I would take just running around town.  I don't use it for roadtrips. Range-anxiety?!  I like to call it "range anticipation!" 😉 

In 2020 I had the battery replaced under factory warranty due to degradation, these 1st gen KIA EVs had some issues in that dept. The new stuff is far more advanced in terms of not just battery chemistry but also cooling/heating systems, charging logic, etc.

Car is so quiet I can hear the brake callipers snapping shut when stopping at lights, and I can pull away from just about anything when the light turns green - love it!

 

 

 

What did the new battery cost you?

[RoadTripper2084]

11 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

What did the new battery cost you?

Nothing. It was covered under warranty. Also it wasn't a brand-new battery pack, but rather a reconditioned one, where they test each cell and then replace the bad ones and balance the pack, etc.

Edited February 18 by RoadTripper2084

[96 EVO]

2 hours ago, RoadTripper2084 said:

Nothing. It was covered under warranty. Also it wasn't a brand-new battery pack, but rather a reconditioned one, where they test each cell and then replace the bad ones and balance the pack, etc.

You're lucky!

Seen on the news back in Nov or Dec, a guy purchased a used Kia EV, and shortly after the purchase, his battery went.

Kia wanted to charge him about $50,000 CAD for a replacement. 

He scrapped the car! 

[RoadTripper2084]

15 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

You're lucky!

Seen on the news back in Nov or Dec, a guy purchased a used Kia EV, and shortly after the purchase, his battery went.

Kia wanted to charge him about $50,000 CAD for a replacement. 

He scrapped the car! 

I will say that I've found 3/4 KIA dealers I've had the displeasure of dealing with to be simply awful.  They will quote you outrageous prices for work on these 1st gen cars, they clearly don't want to do the work.  I would never buy another KIA for this reason.

Having said that, you can purchase a new battery pack for this car now for $12,348.63 USD - Kia Part Store .  You can also purchase a refurbished used battery pack (like the one I have) for far less $1595USD.

But then if you pay KIA to install it you'll get soaked for sure. I've taken to using local shops for my stuff if it's off warranty, much easier to deal with (or doing it myself). It's just nuts and bolts and far simpler and easier than working on a DP. 😉

Also, careful what the media chooses to elevate as a story, they are always looking for the outrageous vs the boring and typical situations.

 

 

Edited February 19 by RoadTripper2084

[96 EVO]

13 minutes ago, RoadTripper2084 said:

 

Also, careful what the media chooses to elevate as a story, they are always looking for the outrageous vs the boring and typical situations.

 

 

That news channel talked KIA corperate into replacing his battery for a fraction of their quote, but it was too late.

He had already scrapped the vehicle.

[tmw188]

On 1/30/2024 at 9:59 PM, Rocketman3 said:

One video you should probably watch is YouTube AZExpert

This Video he talks about installing. He says next weeks will be all about the stuff he does so it charges correctly. He is an RV repair guy in AZ.  He has a Beaver about our same age.

One thing about Dc-Dc charger - mine is a 30amp - which makes it really slow to recharge if the battery is down a ways - 300 ah down divided by 30amps = 10 hrs of drive time - way too much. But it does help.  This summer Victron will have one that is 50amp.

If you put in a Victron Multiplus inverter/charger - it will charge at like 100 or 120amps - which on my 544ah battery is about .2C rate - I don’t want to charge any faster than that - and I still have solar going in. So if you go that route you won’t need a charger.

What batteries are you getting?

 

Here’s another video that popped up on my feed of the same battery. 

 

[saflyer]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:51 AM, jacwjames said:

Where is the best source for the Lifepo4 battery.  I did a quick search and only found them in 12 volt.  What size do you recommend. 

I will have to replace my old batteries soon and looking for options.  I can buy 4 AGM from Sams for ~$160 this month.

What amp hours and voltage are the Sam’s? I assume 6v.

On 12/12/2019 at 11:22 AM, jacwjames said:

I have a RC7 Xantrex inverter, will this be capable of charging the lithium battery?  I checked the manual and it has 3 settings, Gel Cell, Lead Acid, and AGM.  Which setting would work.

I was contemplating adding extra batteries to better handle the additional load of the new Samsung RF18 I just installed.  This might be a better overall solution considering the existing space and weight savings. 

 

Does the Xantrex have the ability to input custom charging? Using a non-lithium profile can work but might only change to 80% of the lithium’s capability. Plus as I understand it you MUST disable equalization charging. It will destroy lithiums. Worth a call to Xantrex for their input.

[saflyer]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:33 PM, Rocketman3 said:

Issue#7 - monitoring. The old 4 led battery monitor will no longer work. You should have a shunt based battery monitor. I use a Victron BMV712 (or Smartshunt), Magnum also has a shunt.

Good Luck

Magnum shunt needs to be the one that works with lithium. The original ones did not. Lithium ones model number ends in “-L”.

[Tom Cherry]

26 minutes ago, saflyer said:

What amp hours and voltage are the Sam’s? I assume 6v.

Does the Xantrex have the ability to input custom charging? Using a non-lithium profile can work but might only change to 80% of the lithium’s capability. Plus as I understand it you MUST disable equalization charging. It will destroy lithiums. Worth a call to Xantrex for their input.

Equalization of AGM's is also the death knell.  You only do it after they will not charge up more than 70% or so. It is best never, routinely, equalize AGM's. The higher charging voltage will boil off the water from the electrolyte and can not be refilled.

[Ivylog]

Watched the AZExpert video above and no wonder his 4 AGMs won’t last through the night even running the generator 6+ hours… his inverter was drawing 100 amps. I’m unhappy when mine is at 10 amps during the night. He says 120V lights… who still uses 120V incandescent lights? Don’t get me wrong as I like this guy but when it comes to electrical???

[saflyer]

On 1/30/2024 at 8:37 PM, MJ.STIGER said:

only other add would be DC/DC charger and some solar panels. 

With solar I find I don’t need alternator charging since I only drive in the daytime and the panels keep the batteries charged even while running the residential refrigerator. So didn’t bother with DCDC charger.

[MJ.STIGER]

51 minutes ago, saflyer said:

With solar I find I don’t need alternator charging since I only drive in the daytime and the panels keep the batteries charged even while running the residential refrigerator. So didn’t bother with DCDC charger

I hear you. I did add it to mine as i dont have solar set up yet. So it will be added insurance once i get to solar. Plan is upgrade inverter to Victron and Solar will be the next steps. I think the inverter is going to be the next by far. I think the current one in my coach is long in the tooth. Its the Xantrex RV3012GS Still kicking.