ISM 500 No Start

[Groovy]

Hi Friends, 

Looking for a little input here, no stranger to diesel engines but the big stuff is new territory for me. Any thoughts are welcomed and encouraged 🙂

 

Short version - 2001 Monaco Signature (85,000mi) with 500hp cummins ISM  ran well and now cranks but no start. No smoke, nothing. 

 

Long Version - Recently purchased this rig from Texas and drove home to BC Canada last month. Had been sitting for quite a few years but in good shape and most systems function as normal. I did manage to run it out of fuel in Phoenix AZ, From that incident I  discovered that the factory installed Racor air / water purge pump system was completely inoperable. Had power to the unit but noting on it functioned other than a green power LED. The prefilter looked like it had never been serviced and since the purge / prime pumps and solenoids were dead I decided to replace that system when I returned. Got it running again and made it home after throwing an alternator belt 100 miles from the finish line (I have now ordered 2 sets of belts to keep as spares 🙂

Back home, parked it for a couple days and went to move it and no start. I saw a little diesel weeping from the Racor set up so figured it had air locked. I knew it would casue me grief sooner than later so good time to replace it. Ordered a FASS IND 165g system and installed it over the next few days. Installation was a breeze and think that was a good investment as it was going to easily cost more to replace with a complete Racor 700 series system or at the very minimum 400 series (hand primed). I am aware the ISM has no lift pump such as the CAPS system but am a fan of having some head pressure to the gear driven pump. Better filtration is a plus too as there are now 3 filters on the fuel system.

Purged the lines / filters and hit the key. Crank but no start. Fed it a little ether to see if I could win it over, but no go. It will cough on starting fluid but its not getting fuel. Cracked the filter at engine (factory FS1000) just to make sure no air in system and just fuel. Cracked the compucheck port on the 90deg fitting supplying the gear driven fuel pump past the filter and fuel is present there, no air noticed. Verified +12v at fuel solenoid and it clicks. I am led to believe this to be operational. Removed chassis batteries and charged, they were new in September of last year, take and hold charge well.

Not certain where to go from here. I am thinking it is electrical in nature as it ran good and then it didn't, however not ruling out anything at this point. I did notice a 20A fuse on the chassis batteries harness was blown. There are 4 weatherpak style fuse holders in that harness. Two are 15A and I believe identified on the wiring diagram as ECM. I cannot figure out the other two, including the blown 20A. Maybe this has something to do with it. I did replace and it did blow again. Just not certain what circuit it supplies. I think I have checked over every other fuse, but again if something rings a bell let me know and I will double check. I have tried starting from the rear controls and same outcome. For the record I did return the switch to FRONT.  Thought there may be a connection from the key ignition not getting through but trying from the rear controls should rule that out? Could it be so simple as the ignition switch itself??

So, possibilities? It either is not getting fuel to injectors or it has fuel and injectors not firing.

1. Electrical and maybe that fuse has a role to play. 

2. ECM - I am getting the 2 lights on dash with key on so thinking it has power 

3. Cam position sensor - they are a 4 wire design, believe there is a redundant circuit. not likely but a possibility?

4. really really really bad air lock? I've cranked on it long enough and fed it enough starting fluid that I have a hard time accepting this.. however...

5. Bad gear driven fuel pump - would it just die? again, not so sure. I should be able to crack a line after the pump and see if it weeps?

6. Solenoid  -  12v present at Key ON, applied 12v direct from chassis batteries and can hear it click. functions but maybe its full of junk and not allowing fuel past. Guess I should remove and visually inspect. Still really feel like this could be the culprit in some way, shape or form. 

 

Thank you all in advance - leaving for our trip October 1 of this year so have a little time LOL

 

Cheers

Grant

 

 

[vito.a]

Wow, sounds like you've been working hard.  If the blown 20a fuse was for the Allison it would not even crank over.  

The ISM doesn't have a heater grid for starting, so that's not it.  

How cold it is up there?  Try using the Aqua Hot to Pre-Heat the engine.  

Try WD-40 down the intake instead of ether.  Also try pumping the throttle pedal hard while cranking.  

Best of luck!

 

[Ivan K]

Yeah, so many possibilities.  Do you feel that there is enough pressure on the compucheck port? Like 25psi+? Also easy to check for ignition power on the top 2 positions of terminal block in left RRB, probably so since you report power on fuel solenoid.

The 2 ECM fuses are 15A, there should be an other one for the Alisson and I suspect the 20A might be from your solar controller, I think orange or red lead. All assuming similarity with our 2000 year.

[Groovy]

Thanks Vito

Yes - working hard indeed. Thanks for the reply. Temperature is pretty good where I am, about 50f. Truthfully was colder in Texas, Nevada and Utah when I drove through and never an issue starting when sitting there overnight. It used to start, then stall and then start again after a couple minutes but that cleared up after I ran out of fuel in Phoenix and changed up the filters. Pretty sure I had a small air leak that I 'fixed' before putting the FASS in.

My aqua hot is out on the diesel side. AC side works for hot water but think the circ pumps are scaled up. I haven't gotten that far yet 🙂

I've heard the WD 40 may be a better alternative and I will try pumping the pedal - maybe I do have a big airlock and pumping it would help break it up

Hi Ivan

 

Yep, lots of possibilities for certain. I will check for power at the solenoid in RRB as you never know.  Will double check ecm fuses and the other 2. Makes good sense it would be for solar and the transmission. 

cheers

Grant

[jacwjames]

Do you have any way of retrieving fault codes? (Scangauge, Silverleaf, Bluefire)

[Groovy]

16 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Do you have any way of retrieving fault codes? (Scangauge, Silverleaf, Bluefire)

Hi - currently no. No way to get codes. May have to break down and find a mobile tech but want to eliminate any easy stuff.

Thought - would the Allison TCM not powering up cause the ECM to be inoperative?

Something along the line of neutral safety switch? 

Really feeling its electrically related...

[Ivan K]

There should be a diag plug connector hanging behind/under the driver side dash to give you blink codes for now, if that is functional. 

[Groovy]

Yes I believe it is there. Will look at how to retrieve blink codes. FORD had something similar way back when 👍

[Reka52]

Know our engines are different but the weather pack fuses on my unit are ecm(2)

believe 1 is Allison and the 20 amp is duvac alternator   For what it’s worth

[Groovy]

5 hours ago, Reka52 said:

Know our engines are different but the weather pack fuses on my unit are ecm(2)

believe 1 is Allison and the 20 amp is duvac alternator   For what it’s worth

Thank you - good to know

[Rikadoo]

If it is air locked i have always cracked the fuel lines at the injectors an cranked it over to get the air out, otherwise you will burn up your starter trying to get it started.

And yes a ignition switch can take a 💩 however i always found the starting to be intermintent, not just all of a sudden fail, but dont rule it out. One more thing where did you get the power to run your FASS system (key on power)

[jacwjames]

Attached is a screen shot of the schematic showing the fuse holders in my rear passenger side, they are labeled.  When you open the document is will be blurry hit CTRL5 and it will clear right up.  You can zoom in to read them better.

I have 3 fuse holders with 7 fuses, most of which are for engine. 

There have been more frequent reports of fuses failing, maybe after ~20 years it is just time. 

2002_Windsor_wiring_passenger side fuses for ECM and transmission.pdf

[Guest Ray Davis]

Good morning Grant/Groovy,  Congratulations on the coach, those are really nice coaches.  Yeah, we have had some cold and some hot weather here in Texas.               We never know this time of the year.

You mentioned running out of fuel which makes me wonder if your fuel gauge is correct or is operative,  our fuel-sending units are not reliable.  They are electronic so can fail giving false readings.   I imagine you know where I'm heading by now so here it is.  Are you sure you have fuel?                      Low fuel will first stop your Aqua-hot, generator, and eventually the engine.   I can look right down the fuel filler neck with a flashlight and see how much fuel I have,  I assume yours is the same.   Good luck & keep us informed.

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Ray Davis

[JJMonaco]

Here's the Info I used on how to get the blink codes on my 2002 Signature ISM.

Good Luck,

JJ

 

 

[Groovy]

On 3/16/2023 at 7:26 AM, Rikadoo said:

If it is air locked i have always cracked the fuel lines at the injectors an cranked it over to get the air out, otherwise you will burn up your starter trying to get it started.

And yes a ignition switch can take a 💩 however i always found the starting to be intermintent, not just all of a sudden fail, but dont rule it out. One more thing where did you get the power to run your FASS system (key on power)

Thats probably a good next step - cracking a line at the head. I've probably put a years worth of wear on the starter at this point.

 

Power for FASS was taken from front driver side electric compartment. Its good, and for troubleshooting I have just run the harness to a stand along car battery so I can be sure it has good power 

On 3/16/2023 at 7:29 AM, jacwjames said:

Attached is a screen shot of the schematic showing the fuse holders in my rear passenger side, they are labeled.  When you open the document is will be blurry hit CTRL5 and it will clear right up.  You can zoom in to read them better.

I have 3 fuse holders with 7 fuses, most of which are for engine. 

There have been more frequent reports of fuses failing, maybe after ~20 years it is just time. 

2002_Windsor_wiring_passenger side fuses for ECM and transmission.pdf 88.09 kB · 20 downloads

Excellent thank you

Going to go through them individually 

On 3/16/2023 at 8:12 AM, Ray Davis said:

Good morning Grant/Groovy,  Congratulations on the coach, those are really nice coaches.  Yeah, we have had some cold and some hot weather here in Texas.               We never know this time of the year.

You mentioned running out of fuel which makes me wonder if your fuel gauge is correct or is operative,  our fuel-sending units are not reliable.  They are electronic so can fail giving false readings.   I imagine you know where I'm heading by now so here it is.  Are you sure you have fuel?                      Low fuel will first stop your Aqua-hot, generator, and eventually the engine.   I can look right down the fuel filler neck with a flashlight and see how much fuel I have,  I assume yours is the same.   Good luck & keep us informed.

 

Thank Ray , yes I learned first hand that the fuel gauges are, well, let's say I learned.

Tank is full,  filled it right to the top before I parked it. I've checked to make sure no one helped themselves to it as well :)

On 3/16/2023 at 1:06 PM, jjroxus said:

Here's the Info I used on how to get the blink codes on my 2002 Signature ISM.

Good Luck,

JJ

 

 

Perfect ! Thank you 

Just on an impromptu vacation and will look at this the moment we return :)

thank you all for the help

[DZZippy]

Just my $.02…. Some of the diesel electronics I get fuzzy in. My gut feeling is it is electrical in nature at this point. The fact that it cranks takes Allison /  neutral safety out of the picture. It wouldn’t crank if there was an issue there…sorry to repeat what has been stated already.

 

is it possible that any of the sensors on the old Racor system where being monitored by the ECM? Granted that may be two problems then if a air lock occurred also. Just thinking???

need to retrieve codes / get access to engine data to see what’s going on.

[Groovy]

2 hours ago, DZZippy said:

Just my $.02…. Some of the diesel electronics I get fuzzy in. My gut feeling is it is electrical in nature at this point. The fact that it cranks takes Allison /  neutral safety out of the picture. It wouldn’t crank if there was an issue there…sorry to repeat what has been stated already.

 

is it possible that any of the sensors on the old Racor system where being monitored by the ECM? Granted that may be two problems then if a air lock occurred also. Just thinking???

need to retrieve codes / get access to engine data to see what’s going on.

Agreed- it cranks fine so neutral safety/ Allison isn't the issue.

Definatly need to pull codes to see if something is there. 

As far as I can tell the 2 prong plug from previous Racor system was a +12v ignition switched power source for the pump and a water in fuel dash light signal.

The no start happened before I removed the old system. Sorta figured installing the FASS would solve.

When I'm back in town I will check for codes and take the valve cover off / crack an injector line and see if I have fuel at cranking. 

Thanks for your input, every bit helps

 

Grant 

[Groovy]

Looking at a fuel flow diagram for the ISM - no individual lines to the injectors to bleed so I will check for fuel after the solenoid.  If I have fuel there I should have fuel to injectors correct? 

[Ivan K]

An other option I would consider is the return line fitting, that would prove to me that the whole fuel system is working. May not have much pressure while cranking but shouldn't be dry.

[Romeo84]

2 hours ago, Ivan K said:

An other option I would consider is the return line fitting, that would prove to me that the whole fuel system is working. May not have much pressure while cranking but shouldn't be dry.

Where did you find this diagram. I need these schematics lol

[Ivan K]

5 minutes ago, Romeo84 said:

Where did you find this diagram. I need these schematics lol

It's from ISM Service manual,  Volume 1 and 2, over 100Mb in size.

[Groovy]

Update - back from a little vacation.

Checked fuel at head, lots at cranking and also checked return, lots of fuel as well when cranking. 

Created a short plug and have code 115 which is for engine speed sensor. Will be looking at a break in wiring but think that is the culprit.

Locate and remove and off to parts shop next steps

 

[jacwjames]

If you do not have a Cummins Quickserve account I'd suggest creating one and registering your engine. 

I did a fault code look up for my engine using the 115 your found, I did get the same thing "engine speed sensor".  It provided me with a brief description but then within that document there was  a link to another much more detailed document with the troubleshooting steps and how to replace the sensor if necessary. 

[Groovy]

Excellent Jim, will do.

I've removed the sensor and off to parts store.

Looks like it was possibly replaced recently but am curious if it was a 'genuine part'. Its suspicious inexpensive looking

[Groovy]

Fixed!

Crank position sensor was the culprit.  New genuine cummins part and it fired up instantly. 

Old sensor looked recently replaced and noticed some slight difference between it and the new cummins part. Thinking the last one was Amazon sourced. Attached a photo, new part on the left.

Thanks to all that replied, much appreciate it.

On to air leaks and slide cylinders next!