Exhaust leak, what would you choose.

[Rikadoo]

After recently having a new muffler installed the person doing the install mentioned thet the manifold was leaking... that explains the squeal when using the exhaust brake. So I was able to get a "kit" thru Cummins $850.00, bolts, spacers & gaskets then after several hours and a few scrapes and head banging I was able to get thru the ordeal. People told me I should have just gotten the manifold shaved and reuse the old one, however given all the work it took to remove it, then reinstall it I decided that the effort merited the cost of the new manifold. Before the purchase I took the part number and looked in amazon they had a similar model but it was not a Cummins part, Im not sure that part would have worked out fine however I have heard too many stories about aftermarket parts and the failures about them, for me the chance to have to do the ugly job over was more than I was willing to risk. All this said if this was a few years ago I might be able to consider using a aftermarket component, due to back in the day they seem to have stricter tolerances that made them more competitive. So how do you see using aftermarket parts, do you use them? can you share your aftermarket stories. Given the opportunity how would you choose original mfg. or aftermarket. 

[Frank McElroy]

Having had 50 years of repairing my own vehicles, I opt for OEM whenever I can.  Didn't used to be that way, but past experiences has confirmed - you get what you pay for.

[cbr046]

7 hours ago, Rikadoo said:

So I was able to get a "kit" thru Cummins $850.00, bolts, spacers & gaskets then after several hours and a few scrapes and head banging I was able to get thru the ordeal.

I have the same 03 HR Endeavor with a leaky manifold gasket (guessing from a warped manifold) and have been dreading the replacement.  It seems to get into the right contortionist positions removing the bed is a good idea?  Assuming you soaked them in your favorite penetrating oil, did you have any issues with the bolts?  Any advice toward a successful operation is welcome. 

I looked at some low-cost parts and decided, like Frank, this is a job that only needs to be done once with quality parts.  Definitely OEM. 

- bob

 

[jacwjames]

We bought a new Class C in 1997 on a Ford Chassis with the 460 engine, while it was still under warranty the passenger side manifold failed/cracked.  The local Ford dealer agreed to fix it but it took over 4 months because manifold failure was a huge issue and there were none in inventory anywhere in the USA.  I asked for extension of warranty but was denied.  We took one trip in the Class C and then when getting ready for another trip the driver side manifold failed with a really bad crack and the exhaust was hitting the main wiring harness and fuel line.  By this time the rig was out of warranty so opted to change it myself and decided to go with after market, which was much more beefier then the OEM, it add additional webs cast into it.  Working through the doghouse and getting at everything was a pain but I got it done.   THEN the passenger side manifold WARPED and was leaking, so I pulled it off and had it machined flat thinking that it had found it's shape and machining would work.  Fortunately I still had friends where I use to work and the shop foreman machined it for me.   I sold the rig in ~2009, my mechanics father bought it and still has it and as far as I know there have been no issues with the aftermarket  or machined exhaust manifold.

When my exhaust manifold cracked in 2015 I couldn't find an aftermarket but a new manifold, bolts, gaskets only cost ~$600 a lot cheaper then today's prices.   If I had another problem and opted for an after market I'd buy it from a place I could return easily.   I'd then compare the old and new and if the aftermarket appeared to be of the same design or heavier I'd install it, if not I'd return it.  When I bought mine it did come in a Cummins box but I'm almost sure it had Manufactured in China on it. 

 

FWIW, the Georgie Boy Maverick Class C I had bought new had a good "House" but the Ford Chassis was a disaster.  I was very familiar with the Ford 6 Sigma quality program as I had just graduated receiving and MBA & Masters in Industrial Engineering with concentrations in Manufacturing Management, Lean Manufacturing, and Logistics & Transportation and the 6 Sigma Quality were studied extensively.  

With that over the years I've shared my FORD experience with lots of people and posting about it multiple time.  I recently posted this on IRV2.

"FWIW My lessons learned!!!!
Completely different level of RV but I bought a new Class C in 1997.
 

1. It was still under warranty when the passenger side exhaust manifold failed, took 4 months to repair because Ford was having a huge problems with the manifold. I sent a letter to Ford asking for at minimum an extension of warranty but was denied.
2. Within ~5 month of getting it back the drivers side manifold failed, I was out of warranty so replaced it myself.
3. Within ~1 year of the passenger side replacement by Ford it failed again, it warped. Out of warranty so I opted to have it machined flat and reinstalled.
4. About 3 years after buying the Class C three of the Firestone tires failed all on one trip, tread peeled right off. I consider this a Ford issue as these were OEM but Firestone was going through the big tire fiasco at the time.
5. The transmission started to leak oil, a big stream, was sudden and I caught it before damage was done. Had it towed to a shop and they pulled the transmission, they could only find the output seal bad so they ordered a replacement. The replacement came with a TSB stating that the original seal was not meant for heavy duty applications, DUH????
6. Last but not least, I started to see my oil pressure fluctuate. Not trusting the gauge I installed a second gauge and confirmed I had a problem. Shop thought it was the oil pump but when they pulled the pump they found that the flange that connected the pickup tube to the oil pump had cracked letting it suck oil. Changed the pump and the pickup tube, luckily not damage done.

Note that I sent letters to Ford for each of the above issues. I sent them to the address listed in the Chassis Owners Manual. Never got a response so on the last issue I sent a REGISTERED letter to HENRY CLAY FORD JR. who was CEO at the time. Finally got a call but they did nothing to assist in anything other then insinuate that all the issues were my fault for lack of maintenance. I played dumb for a little while but thin I let loose and I put that guy in his place real fast. Explained I was an engineer in Mining, a Masters in Industrial Engineering, and an MBA. Also told him I had been involved in heavy equipment maintenance in the mining industry. As Operations Manager the maintenance department reported to me. I'll admit I do not know everything but I believe I am well above average. I told him the issues that I had with my Ford chassis blew their Six Sigma quality program right out of the water. I also told him that a satisfied customer tells maybe 10 people but an unsatisfied customer will tell 100. By the time I was done talking to the idiot he was stuttering and apologizing and I felt somewhat better

But they did not do a thing for me other then say I should have reported my problems to a higher authority earlier and they could have helped. DUH!!!!

And as many times I have posted about my experience with a FORD product I am probably up to 10K people reading about my issues."
 

 

[SteveC]

There may be some things that a non-OEM part is as good as an OEM but when you get to Cummins engine parts I would go OEM unless stranded with no other option. As a former automotive machinist I would also use a quality straightedge to verify the flatness of the mounting surface before installing. 

[Gweedo]

I had mine resurfaced 4-years ago, make sure you use new bolts as these are torqued.  It's a very doable job but a couple tough spots.  Put some penetrant on the bolt the night before, when removing bolts use a wrench/rachet (Not an impact) and slowly loosen, then back towards tight then loosen, back and forth a few times until you feel the bolt is free enough to be removed.  TAKE YOUR TIME you don't want to snap a bolt!      You can take your manifold to a machine shop to see Far far out they are, contact Cummins and see what the safe parameters are for resurfacing.  Sorry I don't recall what mine was but it was a lot.    hope this helps..

oops sorry, OEM when it comes to these types of parts, 

 

[SteveC]

On topic and a little off topic. I read a study of several of the different rust-buster solutions on removing bolts. While everything did something (WD-40, PB Blaster, Kroil Oil, etc.) the top solution was a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF fluid. I haven't tried mixing a batch yet (haven't needed to remove anything rusty) but will give it a try. Story link: https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/2/main/75235/type/thread

[cbr046]

9 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

And as many times I have posted about my experience with a FORD product I am probably up to 10K people reading about my issues."

Along those lines my daughter has a 2005 RAM pickup that, on her camper, the left rear turn signal doesn't work.  Works fine on the truck, but the camper no go.  And it works coming out of the 4 pin trailer connector, but not the 7 pin trailer connector.  Go figure, but a $750 truck computer module will fix it.  Nuts.

A buddy has a recent Ford pickup where the radio stopped working.  I forget the sum to replace it, but it was horrendous ($2k+?).  For sure Ford isn't fixing that either.   Yeah, I'm sure he told more than 100 people too. 

Probably LOTS of manufacturer horror stories, and lots of customer no-service stories to back them up.  Can anyone say porous Cummins engine blocks from Brazil? 😮

We decided to replace our 2003 4-Runner with 354,000 miles.  The speakers were iffy and the shocks needed replacement but pretty much a change oil and go vehicle for it's entire life.  We bought a 2021 4-Runner last week with LOTS of electronic goodies on it.  Sure hope Toyota Engineering hasn't changed! 

- bob

[Gweedo]

Kroil is my #1, has never let me down.  currently rebuild a ford 460 on a 76 pick up I'm restoring, been parked for 21-years, soaked everything in Kroil, no issues.  There are several I'm sure work just as well, but being old school, well you know the rest.  

[Rikadoo]

Yeah i have a GREAT PIECE OF ADVICE, that is when removing the bolts. I had soaked them, however using a wrench they were not moving, so i decied to use a methode i use to use when i worked for Ford that ALWAYS had great results! I used my 3/8 impact wrench (aka rattle wrench) with a socket and use short bursts on the trigger and EVERYONE of them came out with no problem. 
With my ESN of 46279317 my manifold kit # was 5633648 it included both manifolds the bolts and spacers to secure it on the engine. However it DID NOT include the 4 studs or the gasket for the turbo to manifold, the turbo drain gasket, plus i also replaced the oil lubrication hose 3282159, i went one step further and replaced the o rings on the fittings that the hose attached to. The pic showes the hose on the left is the pressure line im talking about with the o rings in the positions im talking about. The fitting #8 has two o rings #7 & 9 that i replaced. One more thing that was a pain but doable that was removing the two bolts that hold the turbo drain to the turbo #11 in the pic pulling them out i used a #10 wobbly with a 6in extension on a hand ratchit. But getting them back in i used a 1/4 in ratchit wobbly an extension cause there more senitive for feel, as the hardest bolt was the one closest to the engine, damm near difficult to see let alone get to, but it is doable.

[cbr046]

11 minutes ago, SteveC said:

On topic and a little off topic. I read a study of several of the different rust-buster solutions on removing bolts. While everything did something (WD-40, PB Blaster, Kroil Oil, etc.) the top solution was a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF fluid. I haven't tried mixing a batch yet (haven't needed to remove anything rusty) but will give it a try. Story link: https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/2/main/75235/type/thread

Project Farms did a story on this - https://project-farm-tools.com/penetrating-oil/

and a video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUEob2oAKVs

I'm definitely a 50/50 mix guy now. 

- bob

[Guest Ray Davis]

10 minutes ago, Rikadoo said:

I used my 3/8 impact wrench (aka rattle wrench) with a socket and use short bursts on the trigger and EVERYONE of them came out with no problem. 

Rik,  great post,  lots of good info,  your hands-on experience can save DIYers tremendous amounts of grief.  I especially like the  ( rattle wrench ),  a more powerful wrench or hand tool is far more likely to twist a bolt off.

@Frank McElroy  Maybe some of Rik's post would be useful in the parts list.   (  I did it, thanks Tom )

[jacwjames]

Impact wrenches work on other things to. 

Years ago I could not get the heating element out of my water heater at the old house but luckily had a large enough impact socket, worked like a charm. 

Then 2 years ago a friend wanted to change the anode rods in his two water heaters.  He wanted to put 2 new zinc alloy in to reduce sulfur smell.  He worked on it for a couple days and called me for advise.  Off I went with my large socket set, he had an impact and air compressor.  The anode rods were really stuck.  Hit with the impact wrench back and forth multiple times and finally saw it move a little, kept working back and forth and it finally broke loose.  A lot easier they trying to hold the tank and use a large cheater bar. 

My impact wrench is a go to tool for me!!!

[SteveC]

51 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

Project Farms did a story on this - https://project-farm-tools.com/penetrating-oil/

and a video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUEob2oAKVs

I'm definitely a 50/50 mix guy now. 

- bob

I really liked the video. Rather than tell you the results, they show you the process. Awesome. Jim, thanks for sharing.

[dl_racing427]

I've had great results using an air impact wrench on rusty manifold bolts.

Soak the bolts with penetrant (I like PB Blaster) a few days before.
I turn down the airline pressure and let the impact run at reduced power, reversing it occasionally, until the vibrations eventually break the rust bond.

I also used new Stainless bolts to reinstall. Always coat the bolts with anti-sieze to help with future service, and torque to spec.

I tend to think that machining an existing manifold flat is preferable to a new one.  Reason being that it's already been heat cycled which relieves internal stresses.

[Rikadoo]

Hey i want to add one more thing, as i had the turbo off i was able to perform service on the exhaust brake using the special lube, its funny that there are soooo many items on our coaches that require “special attention” its sometime a chalange to look at each item seperatly to give it the attention it requires.

[jacwjames]

X2 on the PacBrake lube,

New owners usually don't know about this and I wonder when someone takes a rig in for service that this gets overlooked. 

[cbr046]

or if hi temp synthetic brake grease (for pins) is the same thing?

- b

[Rikadoo]

It states that not only dou you lube the pins, your also supposed to remove the air line an feed some into the inlet port

[birdshill123]

I was a parts mgr. In my youth. Sometimes oem is better. But not always. If  you need front suspension parts fir your car or truck Moog is far better than oem. Same for shock absorbers ,struts and more. Often when an oem part has failures an aftermarket mfr. will build a better unit. But by aftermarket I am not referring to Chinese products.

,

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

Within 2 years of purchasing my MH new, Cummins had a recall on warped exhaust manifolds. Looking at the model years of some of these statements, it looks like there was a problem that they ignored. My 05 has the ISC 300HP.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[jacwjames]

9 minutes ago, Gary 05 AMB DST said:

Within 2 years of purchasing my MH new, Cummins had a recall on warped exhaust manifolds. Looking at the model years of some of these statements, it looks like there was a problem that they ignored. My 05 has the ISC 300HP.

Gary 05 AMB DST

This is similar to the TSB for the lift pump.  Initially replacing the lift pump under warranty, then advising to replace just the gaskets but Cummins ultimately threw up their hands and let the owners deal with it. 

In my previous example Ford basically did the same thing, no doubt if they would have repaired my Class C exhaust manifold in a more timely manner and I was able to use the rig there would have been a real good chance that they would have had to replace the second manifold under warranty.   Still have a bad taste in my mouth after the whole Ford fiasco and what's worse is my wants to get a larger high top Van and Ford is a candidate.