2006 Diplomat 120 VAC and Inverter wiring logic and questions

[JeffM31]

Can someone please enlighten me as to why only 1 plug in my coach is not on the inverter? Is there and actual reason? The plug in the master slide is the only one that doesn’t work in the inverter. Very odd to me. 2006 quad slide Diplomat 

[vito.a]

The audio video cabinet outlet, the microwave outlet, the bedroom nightstand outlets, one of the two outlets behind the refrigerator, and possibly a couple of others are wired through the inverter.  All others are not wired through the inverter.  

I haven't specifically checked your 2006 owners manual, but most of the Monaco owners manuals outline this.  

[hex_nut]

I was told that the outlet that was not wired thru the inverter was for items that you NEVER want running off battery power (electric space heater for example).

[Gary M]

According to the 2006 wiring diagram their are several outlets not on the inverter. Do you have your wiring diagram? There is a set in our files for download or I can send u my copy! 50 pages.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Gary M

[waterskier_1]

This varies by year and model.  Generally, the lower end coaches had fewer outlets on the inverter than higher end.  That might be due to higher end coaches having an Inverter Sub Panel versus a single line out of the inverter.  I know many who have wanted and added non- inverter outlets to relive the inverter limitation on total current that can be used.  I think the Worrell case of outlets on the inverter was my 1997 Dynasty - every outlet was on the inverter, including the Block Heater!

- Rick N 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, JeffM31 said:

Can someone please enlighten me as to why only 1 plug in my coach is not on the inverter? Is there and actual reason? The plug in the master slide is the only one that doesn’t work in the inverter. Very odd to me. 2006 quad slide Diplomat 

Jeff,

Lets see if I can summarize this.  We do NOT have the 2006 prints for the Diplomat, but I often download a set of prints so that I can work without constantly downloading.  I suggest you use this link and start downoading them all.  I have TWO files at the bottom.  One is the INDEX....IMPORTANT...and the other is the answer to your question.  Your manual also has this and I suggest you read it and also visit the main panel.  NOW here is Monaco & Magnum Circuit Explanation 101

Your motor home has a main panel that gets power from one of two sources.  Generator or Shore.  The ATS and the source are then switched by the ATS to the main panel.  You have a main panel with several circuit breakers.  Concentrating on ONE.  That is the Inverter or the 30 Amp breaker.  This then sends power to the Magnum Inverter charger.  So there is a 30 Amp INCOMING line.  There are TWO OUTGOING circuits.  One is for the Microwave and is DEDICATED.  The other is for the GFCI that might be located under the sink in the Vanity in the hallway or it may be in the private bathroom.  There are ONLY TWO CIRCUITS that supply your MOST NEEDED INTERNAL POWER.  NOW....the GFCI is then the first PROTECTION point.  Code and Common Sense dictates that you have to have protection incase of a ground fault.  Think of being in the bathtub and a hair dryer falls in.  That is the OLD....How'd he DIE or someone killed him.  The GFCI in your home bathroom protects you from getting shocked or worse.  Therefore, any outlet in the MH that is within 5 feet of a water source (bathroom, vanity, sink) MUST be GFCI protected.  

NOW...you may NOT know that there is an ATS in the Inverter.  SO, when you have a charged (doesn't need to fully) battery, the Inverter "senses" this and it is THAT DC power (House) that provides control power to the Magnum remote.  NOW, when the Inverter also "senses" that there is incoming power (120 VAC) from the Inverter Breaker, then the ATS allows all  30 amps to be distributed.  There are (probably) THREE Pin style circuit breakers on the outside of the Inverter.  30 amp for the INCOMING and TWO 20 Amp for the OUTGOING.  20 + 20 adds to 40.  BUT, for diversity or being able to get more power to one circuit, they are 20 Amp.

When the inverter "senses" or actually DOESN'T Sense or measure 120 VAC, then it says....TIME TO GET TO WORK.  The Inverter then provides 120 VAC from the House batteries.  NOW, the Inverter is NOT as powerful as the incoming power.  SO, you have 30 amps or 3,600 Watts coming in.  BUT, the Inverter can ONLY provide a full 16 or 17 amps or 2000 Watts of power.  THUS, when you are boondocking or on Inverter, you have only 56% of the power you would have if you were on Shore or Genny.

OK....GOT ALL THAT?  NOW...the only outlets that are powered are the Microwave and the ones downstream of the Inverter and the GFCI.  That is IT.  That is what, for your size and price range MH, is the standard.  If you had a Dynasty with TWO inverters...more power and MORE outlets.  For example a Prevost conversion MH or BUS...does not have but a small inverter.  If you want POWER...you crank the Generator.  Their Generator is maybe 2 or 2.5 times BIGGER (say 20 KW) than yours.  They don't have a large bank of House batteries...or so an owner showed me.  They depend on the Generator...

OK...NOW look at the prints. Every OTHER outlet or device on the main panel does NOT GO THROUGH the Inverter.  Your washer/dryer, water heater, both AC's, block heater and a "Bedroom" outlet.  FOLKS complain that the Bedroom outlet SHOULD be on the inverter due to so many folks having C-Pap machines.  Later ON....or at least on my 2009, they changed that.

SO, technically, you do NOT have ONE SINGLE 120 VAC outlet, which you ordinarily need, running FROM the Main Panel.  The 30 Amp inverter Breaker powers the Inverter.  Then the Inverter's output, whether from the incoming 30 amp or inverting, provides all the "essential AC power".  That is HOW it is and how most of us understand it. 

If you look at the print, you can see that the outlets are marked as being on the Inverter.  Don't ask for an explanation of the print and the NEW design.  This is fundamentally WHY.  So, unless you spend a fortune have an electrician rewire your MH, if you want power in the Bedroom...use a #14 Gauge extension cord...

Hope this helps.  if not, read the manual and look and follow and learn.  THEN ask questions.  YES, maybe only 25% of the folks (not our esteemed members here) even have a vague understanding of how this works.  BUT, this is it...

End of class.  go out for recess.  LOL...

[Gary M]

13 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Jeff,

Lets see if I can summarize this.  We do NOT have the 2006 prints for the Diplomat, but I often download a set of prints so that I can work without constantly downloading.  I suggest you use this link and start downoading them all.  I have TWO files at the bottom.  One is the INDEX....IMPORTANT...and the other is the answer to your question.  Your manual also has this and I suggest you read it and also visit the main panel.  NOW here is Monaco & Magnum Circuit Explanation 101

Your motor home has a main panel that gets power from one of two sources.  Generator or Shore.  The ATS and the source are then switched by the ATS to the main panel.  You have a main panel with several circuit breakers.  Concentrating on ONE.  That is the Inverter or the 30 Amp breaker.  This then sends power to the Magnum Inverter charger.  So there is a 30 Amp INCOMING line.  There are TWO OUTGOING circuits.  One is for the Microwave and is DEDICATED.  The other is for the GFCI that might be located under the sink in the Vanity in the hallway or it may be in the private bathroom.  There are ONLY TWO CIRCUITS that supply your MOST NEEDED INTERNAL POWER.  NOW....the GFCI is then the first PROTECTION point.  Code and Common Sense dictates that you have to have protection incase of a ground fault.  Think of being in the bathtub and a hair dryer falls in.  That is the OLD....How'd he DIE or someone killed him.  The GFCI in your home bathroom protects you from getting shocked or worse.  Therefore, any outlet in the MH that is within 5 feet of a water source (bathroom, vanity, sink) MUST be GFCI protected.  

NOW...you may NOT know that there is an ATS in the Inverter.  SO, when you have a charged (doesn't need to fully) battery, the Inverter "senses" this and it is THAT DC power (House) that provides control power to the Magnum remote.  NOW, when the Inverter also "senses" that there is incoming power (120 VAC) from the Inverter Breaker, then the ATS allows all  30 amps to be distributed.  There are (probably) THREE Pin style circuit breakers on the outside of the Inverter.  30 amp for the INCOMING and TWO 20 Amp for the OUTGOING.  20 + 20 adds to 40.  BUT, for diversity or being able to get more power to one circuit, they are 20 Amp.

When the inverter "senses" or actually DOESN'T Sense or measure 120 VAC, then it says....TIME TO GET TO WORK.  The Inverter then provides 120 VAC from the House batteries.  NOW, the Inverter is NOT as powerful as the incoming power.  SO, you have 30 amps or 3,600 Watts coming in.  BUT, the Inverter can ONLY provide a full 16 or 17 amps or 2000 Watts of power.  THUS, when you are boondocking or on Inverter, you have only 56% of the power you would have if you were on Shore or Genny.

OK....GOT ALL THAT?  NOW...the only outlets that are powered are the Microwave and the ones downstream of the Inverter and the GFCI.  That is IT.  That is what, for your size and price range MH, is the standard.  If you had a Dynasty with TWO inverters...more power and MORE outlets.  For example a Prevost conversion MH or BUS...does not have but a small inverter.  If you want POWER...you crank the Generator.  Their Generator is maybe 2 or 2.5 times BIGGER (say 20 KW) than yours.  They don't have a large bank of House batteries...or so an owner showed me.  They depend on the Generator...

OK...NOW look at the prints. Every OTHER outlet or device on the main panel does NOT GO THROUGH the Inverter.  Your washer/dryer, water heater, both AC's, block heater and a "Bedroom" outlet.  FOLKS complain that the Bedroom outlet SHOULD be on the inverter due to so many folks having C-Pap machines.  Later ON....or at least on my 2009, they changed that.

SO, technically, you do NOT have ONE SINGLE 120 VAC outlet, which you ordinarily need, running FROM the Main Panel.  The 30 Amp inverter Breaker powers the Inverter.  Then the Inverter's output, whether from the incoming 30 amp or inverting, provides all the "essential AC power".  That is HOW it is and how most of us understand it. 

If you look at the print, you can see that the outlets are marked as being on the Inverter.  Don't ask for an explanation of the print and the NEW design.  This is fundamentally WHY.  So, unless you spend a fortune have an electrician rewire your MH, if you want power in the Bedroom...use a #14 Gauge extension cord...

Hope this helps.  if not, read the manual and look and follow and learn.  THEN ask questions.  YES, maybe only 25% of the folks (not our esteemed members here) even have a vague understanding of how this works.  BUT, this is it...

End of class.  go out for recess.  LOL...

I have a 50 page 2006 Diplomat Wiring Diagram that I got from a friend. Not sure if it will help!!!!

[JeffM31]

You guys are the best. Yes please if you guys have wiring diagrams that would be great. Still boggles my mind that every “visible” plug has power except the one in the passenger side master slide. Both plugs at the night stands have inverted power. Only reason I wanted that one and only plug was for a fan I bought. SMH 

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, JeffM31 said:

You guys are the best. Yes please if you guys have wiring diagrams that would be great. Still boggles my mind that every “visible” plug has power except the one in the passenger side master slide. Both plugs at the night stands have inverted power. Only reason I wanted that one and only plug was for a fan I bought. SMH 

OK…You get an A, MAINLY, for reading my post…but also understanding it.  So, instead of a worthless gold star….

The search function and knowing how to use it is a powerful tool plus it is the quickest way to find information.  I used the word WIRING. in the search box at the upper right.  Then if you click on the word EVERYWHERE you get a drop down.  I selected FILES.  We have a treasure trove of information.  The link below is where to get your wiring diagrams.  So..i would do this.  Set up a file folder 2007 Diplomat Wiring.  Then click on the link.  There will be more than 50 individual PDF.  Based on how member send us documents, this one, I SUSPECT, is a GENUINE Monaco file….as in a PDF for each drawing.  The member did a Word Document, like I did, and wrote a “more meaningful title”. 

SO, FIRST, download the PDF INDEX from my post.  Maybe rename it “AA 2007 Diplomat wiring drawing index”.  That will always put it at the top.  THEN download them.  That’s it. Here is the link to our files.  When you click, there are 50 plus files.  Systematically click on each one, download and move or save to the folder.

 

[cbr046]

I've been unable to find a complete wiring diagram set for our 2003 Endeavor / Diplomat, so my process has been to

#1 download anything close to that year and

#2 download the larger files, even if it's for a Navigator (21MB file).  It gives a "sense" of how Monaco wired different coaches.

I did find a sorta complete set - 2MB total in 17 files.  So those are very basic but low resolution diagrams.  The resolution is so poor on some files it's hard to figure out what's what.

 

BUT ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING!! 

and I'll take it!

- bob

 

[waterskier_1]

Here is the AC wiring diagram for 2006 Diplomat.  The outlets that are not on the Inverter are Highlighted in violet.  I have also highlighted the Inverter Circuits:  The Microwave is in Green and all the outlets are in yellow.  I hope this helps sort things out for you.

  -Rick N 

2006 Diplomat AC Wiring.pdf

[JeffM31]

8 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Here is the AC wiring diagram for 2006 Diplomat.  The outlets that are not on the Inverter are Highlighted in violet.  I have also highlighted the Inverter Circuits:  The Microwave is in Green and all the outlets are in yellow.  I hope this helps sort things out for you.

  -Rick N 

2006 Diplomat AC Wiring.pdf 102.63 kB · 0 downloads

Thank you

[Gary M]

2 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Here is the AC wiring diagram for 2006 Diplomat.  The outlets that are not on the Inverter are Highlighted in violet.  I have also highlighted the Inverter Circuits:  The Microwave is in Green and all the outlets are in yellow.  I hope this helps sort things out for you.

  -Rick N 

2006 Diplomat AC Wiring.pdf 102.63 kB · 6 downloads

I sent Jeff a 50 page 2006 wiring diagram from a friend who sold his coach. He’s good to go now. It may not be specific to his coach but should help.

[Tom Cherry]

4 minutes ago, Gary M said:

I sent Jeff a 50 page 2006 wiring diagram from a friend who sold his coach. He’s good to go now. It may not be specific to his coach but should help.

Please PM me the same file.  I'll compare to the 2007.  We have a Lot of 2006.  We can then get it into our files.  Thanks,

[Tom Cherry]

46 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Please PM me the same file.  I'll compare to the 2007.  We have a Lot of 2006.  We can then get it into our files.  Thanks,

GREAT.  Got the file.  I have passed it on to @Frank McElroy and suggested a format or new file that has both and my "user notes" and comments from each.

Gary, it is always great to add to our data bases.  THANKS A BUNCH...

@JeffM31 When I recommended that you download all the files, I believe that is also a MUST.  The format of the drawings or the way the "Engineer" saw things is totally different in 2006 from 2007.  There may be a few files that overlap, but from trying to understand or give a tech some information....I would advise the download as well as saving Gary's file.  Here is the Index of the 2007 Drawings.  

For all practical purposes, I believe they actual wiring is virtually the same...but different engineers used different wiring layout or schematic methods of "nomenclatures"  NOT USUAL.  They later Dynasty (2006/7 and up) are, for me a CHALLENGE....but the 2007/8 Scepter/Camelots are easy to follow.  BUT, they are different....in many cases, the same circuit was used for an area or a device.  BUT, one engineer "saw" it way...which was logical to him...but another, who was more familiar with a different method thought his schematic was easier to follow.  YES, there was a "internal turf war" going on in Monaco and there was the NEW SCHOOL, all Multiplex group and the OLD SCHOOL, ladder or conventional circuits...and they "never" were able to reach a "PEACE ACCORD".  LOL.  That was explained to me by folks inside and also the "comments" from a couple of top Monaco Techs...and some local ones as well.  Mars and Venus...

2007 Diplomat & Endeavor Wiring Diagrams INDEX..pdf

[JeffM31]

Thank you everyone 

[Steven P]

@JeffM31 I have an 06 Dip w 3 slides and worked through the electrical figuring out what was on what.  I've had 2 main issues: the microwave outlet almost caught fire.  Since then, ive been trying to go through replacing the stock outlets.  @Scotty Hutto has same coach and his looked the same when he checked it.  

2nd issue is the fridge (residential) was on the GFCI line and when that plug was faulty, it would trip the GFCI and shut down the fridge.  Not good when you're gone for several hours.  I replaced that outlet w a similar GFCi and still had issues.  Changed to another brand (hubbell?) and no more issues.  

However, I traced all the outlets and decided there was no need to have the fridge on GFCI so I swapped it at the outlet so even if it trips, it doesn't shut off power to the fridge. Pics below. 

Also, for that fan, the PO tapped into the 12V above the dresser and installed a 12V fan.  Works great for the bedroom. Also a pic. 

[JeffM31]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:20 AM, Steven P said:

@JeffM31 I have an 06 Dip w 3 slides and worked through the electrical figuring out what was on what.  I've had 2 main issues: the microwave outlet almost caught fire.  Since then, ive been trying to go through replacing the stock outlets.  @Scotty Hutto has same coach and his looked the same when he checked it.  

2nd issue is the fridge (residential) was on the GFCI line and when that plug was faulty, it would trip the GFCI and shut down the fridge.  Not good when you're gone for several hours.  I replaced that outlet w a similar GFCi and still had issues.  Changed to another brand (hubbell?) and no more issues.  

However, I traced all the outlets and decided there was no need to have the fridge on GFCI so I swapped it at the outlet so even if it trips, it doesn't shut off power to the fridge. Pics below. 

Also, for that fan, the PO tapped into the 12V above the dresser and installed a 12V fan.  Works great for the bedroom. Also a pic. 

Thank you   Ill be checking my microwave plug to see. Those push style plugs are notorious for heat. 

Thank you everyone, I have saved all the files to my computer  

[Tom Cherry]

On 7/26/2023 at 2:20 PM, Steven P said:

@JeffM31 I have an 06 Dip w 3 slides and worked through the electrical figuring out what was on what.  I've had 2 main issues: the microwave outlet almost caught fire.  Since then, ive been trying to go through replacing the stock outlets.  @Scotty Hutto has same coach and his looked the same when he checked it.  

2nd issue is the fridge (residential) was on the GFCI line and when that plug was faulty, it would trip the GFCI and shut down the fridge.  Not good when you're gone for several hours.  I replaced that outlet w a similar GFCi and still had issues.  Changed to another brand (hubbell?) and no more issues.  

However, I traced all the outlets and decided there was no need to have the fridge on GFCI so I swapped it at the outlet so even if it trips, it doesn't shut off power to the fridge. Pics below. 

Also, for that fan, the PO tapped into the 12V above the dresser and installed a 12V fan.  Works great for the bedroom. Also a pic. 

This is the SAME message that I have PREACHED for years and had “experts” tell me that a MH was “DIFFERENT” from a house and that Monaco was smarter than all the electrical engineers and safety experts that write and review and update all the wiring “standards”….like the National Electrical Code, National Fire Prevention Association, Underwriters Laboratory, etc.

As an Ex Safety Director that taught electrical safety and conducted “in house OSHA” inspections (Corporate mandate and the Plant Manager’s bonus took into account our team score of his safety and environmental compliance or AUDIT, and was responsible for electrical maintenance and also talked to countless building inspectors and OSHA inspectors….this is the gospel.

A microwave is EXEMPT from the “MUST HAVE A GCFI” requirement.  Two reasons….MOST (built in) have a single outlet.  Code actually allows a dual gang or TWO outlets, but they are usually in a cabinet and NOT READILY assessable for plugging another hand held electrical device.  A Microwave will send a FALSE POSITIVE that MAY trip a GFCI.  The older the GFCI….the worse and this can called a NUANCE trip…and NOT an electrical safety issue.

A Residential refrigerator or a MH refrigerator should NOT be on a GFCI.   Building inspectors specifically look on new or renovations and verify that there is NO GFCI on either the Dedicated or Microwave circuit.  Some rookie electricians don’t know the code and they have put in s GFCI…out of “lack of code knowledge”.  It is ALWAYS removed and a standard CB is installed.  Same LOGIC…except WORSE!  An Icemaker has an electric heating element.  Many auto defrost have heaters in a cabinet or even close to a gasket to prevent condensation.  An OLD and crotchety GFCI will often TRIP or be a false positive or nuance.

Monaco was lazy..  and NO ONE really understood, I think, the above.  NOW each and every model might be different.  But if there is ONE circuit going to the microwave, it is NOT GFCI protected.  But, I can’t recall if my outlet is a single or dual.  PROBABLY, as in the pictures…a single.

Next up, the second circuit, on the lower ends without a SECOND panel with breakers will have a GFCI as the FIRST termination in the circuit.  FWIW, the ORIGINAL question from the OP was answered in detail (BORING) and two of us pulled prints and figured it out and I posted the Subpanel schematic.  NOW…the bulk here have the GFCI Receptacle.  IF you are lucky and TEST, odds are….the Icemaker circuit is on a line to the Refrigerator and then probably (maybe) the TV and or HEC….and does NOT have a receptacle within the 5 or 6 foot generic “GFCI zone”.  Thus, you TEST and VERIFY.  Then, odds are, you can move the icemaker Romex to the LINE SIDE of the GFCI….leave the “GFCI Zone” receptacle line on the LOAD….and are in compliance and also prevent the Nuance trips as the heaters get a bit of age and the ceramic absorbs a little moisture, THEN the GFCI gets into a PANIC….it Ain’t smart enough to know the difference.  OBTW, I audited many Eaton Wiring Devices plants and spent a lot of time just  “talking to and understand how a GFCI works” with their design engineers.  They confirm or told me that the above was correct …

Amen…thus endeth the sermon….go forth and use this knowledge…LOL.

[waterskier_1]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

This is the SAME message that I have PREACHED for years and had “experts” tell me that a MH was “DIFFERENT” from a house and that Monaco was smarter than all the electrical engineers and safety experts that write and review and update all the wiring “standards”….like the National Electrical Code, National Fire Prevention Association, Underwriters Laboratory, etc.

 

 

Tom, I may not be an expert (don't know how to define that), but those experts are correct, an RV (not just motorhomes) are different from a house (they actually are designed to move).  I'm not sure if Monaco thought they were smarter than the electrical engineers and safety experts that participate in the NEC and NFPA or UL.  That is because NONE of those pertain to recreational vehicles.  There are standards that do pertain, notably the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and the Recreational Vehicles Industry Association (RVIA).  One of the Standards I use when designing low voltage (think Lithium Battery, Inverter/Charger, as example) systems is the ANSI RVIA Standard for Low Voltage Systems.  This standard is not the same as the NEC for low voltage systems.  Just recently the RVIA has adopted the 2023 National Electric Code.  I have not purchased this version since I don't do much design in that area, but most of the code is followed.  I'm sure there are examples of exceptions.  There is an ANSI/RVIA EGS Standard for Engine Generator Sets for RV.  I'm sure there are many others.  

Also recognize that the code does change.  I recently got notification of a change to the 2023 National Electric Code (NEC) which now states:  The 2020 NEC required GFCI protection for kitchen receptacles serving countertops. One significant change the 2023 NEC delivers for residential construction is the extension of that requirement beyond the countertop. Now all 125 V to 250 V receptacles anywhere in a kitchen must have GFCI protection, regardless of their location or proximity to a sink. This protection can be provided by either a GFCI breaker or a GFCI receptacle; however, the code requires that the GFCI be readily accessible, making the GFCI breaker the easier option to achieve this.  So, now Microwaves and Refrigerators will require GFCI in residential construction.  I haven't received anything from RVIA other than to acknowledge the 2023 NEC exists.  I'm not sure if it will apply to new RVs, but I'm pretty sure it won't be retroactive.  

Things are always a changing.

  -Rick N.

 

 

  -Rick N.

[Tom Cherry]

41 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Tom, I may not be an expert (don't know how to define that), but those experts are correct, an RV (not just motorhomes) are different from a house (they actually are designed to move).  I'm not sure if Monaco thought they were smarter than the electrical engineers and safety experts that participate in the NEC and NFPA or UL.  That is because NONE of those pertain to recreational vehicles.  There are standards that do pertain, notably the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and the Recreational Vehicles Industry Association (RVIA).  One of the Standards I use when designing low voltage (think Lithium Battery, Inverter/Charger, as example) systems is the ANSI RVIA Standard for Low Voltage Systems.  This standard is not the same as the NEC for low voltage systems.  Just recently the RVIA has adopted the 2023 National Electric Code.  I have not purchased this version since I don't do much design in that area, but most of the code is followed.  I'm sure there are examples of exceptions.  There is an ANSI/RVIA EGS Standard for Engine Generator Sets for RV.  I'm sure there are many others.  

Also recognize that the code does change.  I recently got notification of a change to the 2023 National Electric Code (NEC) which now states:  The 2020 NEC required GFCI protection for kitchen receptacles serving countertops. One significant change the 2023 NEC delivers for residential construction is the extension of that requirement beyond the countertop. Now all 125 V to 250 V receptacles anywhere in a kitchen must have GFCI protection, regardless of their location or proximity to a sink. This protection can be provided by either a GFCI breaker or a GFCI receptacle; however, the code requires that the GFCI be readily accessible, making the GFCI breaker the easier option to achieve this.  So, now Microwaves and Refrigerators will require GFCI in residential construction.  I haven't received anything from RVIA other than to acknowledge the 2023 NEC exists.  I'm not sure if it will apply to new RVs, but I'm pretty sure it won't be retroactive.  

Things are always a changing.

  -Rick N.

 

 

  -Rick N.

Not going to argue since you are more up-to-date.  BUT, I read a lot...a few years back and I, as you probably do, understand the various technical committees and the volunteers and the methodology as well as the feedback that they get for even a SIMPLE change.  The feedback from all the "electrical repair contractors" was that the "talked about" changes for the Microwaves and the Refrigerators was going to be a NIGHTMARE.  Now this was NOT, if I can sort of "read between the lines" some flaming wire puller.  These were REALLY precise and well worded and well stated situations.  I also know, unless technology has changed, that a GFCI is not (maybe now...but not a few years ago) designed to discern a FALSE positive from a "leaky" heater compared to a REAL issue.  THAT was what all the rub was about.  There were SOME proactive (also known my other less flattering names) municipalities that took great joy in putting in regulations, as was their right, just to "be ahead of the curve".  Several were mentioned.  There was a plethora of comments from electrical contractors and repair folks that a GFCI on either the Microwave or a Res Refer was idiotic...but it SURE got them a lot of business.  One person said that the FIRST contractor charged upwards of $1000 and told them...IT IS IN THE REFRIGERATOR.  Then the customer went out and bought a brand new ($4K) Side by side....BINGO...the GFCI kept tripping and then HE was called in.  He said....I removed the GFCI (receptacle or breaker) and hooked it up from a branch circuit and plugged in the new refrigerator.  IT TRIPPED.  So, I then brought out several different brands.  I then proceeded to test each one.  Found one that worked.  He concluded..."I have NO IDEA" why this brand worked...and would not bet that a different lot or from another factory would also work.  His comment....Folks are gonna have issues and we, the field electricains, don't have the test equipment nor the expertise.  I HOPE THE NEC IS NOT THAT STUPID.

OK...yes that is an INTERNET STORY.

As to the current issue....  I still stand by my position...but am NOT going to argue with you or your research.  FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, there was never any logic, other than simplicity, to run the two Load Circuits as they were wired. It was simpler to remove the Icemaker.  BUT, as you and I both SAID....you have to TEST.  There is ONE crazy print that I looked at with 2 GFCI circuits and the were interspersed in a scheme that the electrical equivalent of Rube Goldberg would envy.

I also have to put on the STAFF hat.  Chris Throgmartin made a post about the folks here and the expertise and also the "charter" that the Staff (Moderator/Administrator) adhered to.  CORRECT information that could harm folks and also offer the most sound and safe advice...  That sums it up.

We have had folks that had issue with GFCI's from 2009 when I joined.  MANY TOTALLY BRILLIANT and INTELLIGENT.  They gave up.  They REMOVED the GFCI Breakers from the subpanels and SOME then replaced the critical outlets (6 ft rule) with individual GFCI's.  We recently has a poster that hard wired the outlet....as he did not understand that the LINE and LOAD could be on the TOP or the BOTTOM of a GFCI and you could NOT look at the orientation of the terminals and know.  In the BEFORE time, it was always Ground Pin DOWN....Line on TOP & Load on BOTTOM.  I went through a bunch of product catalogs and my former company, who used to be Cooper Industries, now Eaton....is marketing a REVERSED one.  Too many of the building inspectors want GROUND PIN UP.  SO, the default...if I look at them in the catalog is LINE is on the GROUND PIN SIDE...totally opposite of the old version.  Hubbell and Leviton MAY still be the conventional way.  GOD FORBID.  Most electricians do things based on habit...and many will NOT or have not paid attention.  I know from helping 4 LICENSED NC ELECTRICIANS rewire an old house and install a generator that one them wired a bunch WRONG...and I had to chase down and fix them...it was an ALL WEEKEND Marathon.

SO...back on point.  I thank you for the NEC update.  I pity, unless technology has changed, the results.  All I know is that an OLD GFCI will trip quicker from a false positive and that even NEW refrrigerators with icemakers will trip new GFCI...so I ask...."What is gonna change and make this work?"  I DO hope that the Electrical Manufacturing Association (not the correct name...but the BIG BOY Industry spokes group) will be able to make products that are smarter than the are now...and maybe they will.  

I think that anyone that has sufficient knowledge to recognize what you and I are talking about, COULD and SHOULD be able to test the downstream circuits...and then, safely, move the Icemaker circuit to the LINE side...providing there are NO OTHER DOWNSTREAM or connected OUTLETS within the 6 ft "GFCI zone".  Keep me posted.  I might do some research also.  I lost my contacts at "Eagle", the ORIGINAL "Wiring Devices Company" in my former home town....and then Cooper bought them and Eaton bought Cooper.  SAME assembly lines and factories...just different boxes and names on the outgoing products...MOST OF WHICH....USED to come from their big Factory in Mexico City and where the "technical expertise" was transferred to...last time I called, the Hispanic Engineer had excellent English and was very helpful....and explained what I posted..

That's it...