Jetjockey Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Trying to determine option for hooking up an echo charger on. 2003 executive 43ds Monaco. House and chassis batteries are not located together. Chassis batteries go dead if parked for a while . Could connect directly to the batteries if I run some extraconductor a few feet.or Possible go to forward 12v bay and connect everything there. Unfortunately things are not labeled on this Monaco. My hr imperial has all labeled very well. Pic of forward 12v is not very good but all I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution Frank Bergamo Posted February 8 Solution Share Posted February 8 (edited) Do you have a battery isolator? Chassis lug and house lug are within inches of each other. That’s where I hooked mine up on my 02’ Marquis . Hope this helps, good luck. Edited February 8 by Frank Bergamo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito.a Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 My first choice would be to fix the original system. More than likely the issue is the Intellitec Big Boy isolation solenoid in the rear electrical run bay. These can be repaired by disassembling and cleaning the copper contacts. Then if you still want to modify it, I'd install a Blue Sea ML-ACR battery combiner. This will also install in the rear electrical run bay and combine the batteries for charging or boost (emergency) starts. https://www.bluesea.com/products/7622/ML-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_with_Manual_Control_-_12V_DC_500A 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bergamo Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Not sure 2003 Executive model has the Big Boy/Bird system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetjockey Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 The motorhome is not mine or near me. I understand there were those that had no provision to charge chassis batteries when on shore power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 The 2004 manual of an executive shows a battery boost solenoid in the rear engine bay BUT the 2002 manual does not, it shows it in the front run bay. There is not a 2003 manual available from the Monaco (REV) website. But looking at the picture it almost looks there is a boost solenoid in the upper left hand corner. It there is a boost solenoid I agree with Vito that a Bluesea would be a better option as it will charge both battery banks if there is a charge source from engine, generator, or shore power. I installed one in 2021, one of the better modes' I've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomV48 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) Upper left looks like it could be a boost relay but could also be the salesman switch for the DC in the coach. Use a multi meter or even just a volt meter, and start tracing things. I hope there is a master battery cut off at each battery bank so that you can isolate a bank and then track the large cables in the front page see which one is left hot and which one is not. I have a big boy type 200 amp full duty cycle relay in my coach, back in the battery Bay, but it's disabled (out of the circuit) in favor of a DC to DC charger I installed for my lithium batteries so no boost switch. Try this link to YouTube, AZ Expert if I recall the device he is installing, will not only handle lithium batteries but should handle stock batteries as well, until you get around to upgrading. There is also a similar isolator for conventional batteries if lithium batteries are not the priority. Edited February 8 by TomV48 Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joefromperry Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 When the Big Boy on my 2003 Signature was not functioning, I put in an Echo-Charge to keep both banks charged until I was able to clean / fix my Big Boy. I left the Echo-Charge connected, but removed the fuse, making it non-functioning, until if and when I need to work on big boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetjockey Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 (edited) What is the advantage of the blue sea device over the echo charger.? It appears to me they do the same thing. There seems to be several models to choose from. While the echo charger is a voltage follower wondered if blue sea is similar. I have read that the blue sea will not charge the batteries completely and that tying house and and chassis batteries together may put excessive load on an alternator. Not sure if this is accurate information. Edited February 9 by Jetjockey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyronTruex Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 A picture of the battery compartment would be very helpful. Getting the echo charger as near the battery banks as possible will help with voltage loss in a long run. However, it is not a deal breaker. Looking at those heavy wires in the picture, if you are able to determine that there is one for each bank then connecting there is an option. I would be interested in the model of the charger to see how much current it supplies. I wish I had a list of each model year and what factory charging setups they have. These snowflakes changed a lot over the years as technology and experiences improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 In my case I was having trouble with my existing charge system. I had a BIRD, Lambert 415 maintainer, and isolation solenoid. The isolation solenoid also served as the battery boost. So it was an easy swap to remove the solenoid and replace with the Bluesea which can also serve as the battery boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 26 minutes ago, Jetjockey said: What is the advantage of the blue sea device over the echo charger.? It appears to me they do the same thing. ONE QUICK QUESTION....just to VERIFY what you have. Your PROFILE says a you have a Holiday Rambler WINDSOR 42 BPQ. A Windsor was a MONACO brand...not a Holiday Rambler. There was NO 42 BPQ in a Windsor floor plan...SO, I am assuming that your signature is correct...and we are talking about a 2005 HR Imperial 42 BPQ. Please revise, if correct, your profile. NEXT UP... You appear to be working on a 2003 Executive....which is NOT your MH...and that is a bit confusing...as myself and many may have look at your signature... SO... To answer your question.... OK....in answer to your question.....NOPE.... The Echo Charger is a "THIEF" device. It is limited to 15 Amps... BUT, in reality....it is much lower as the leads are #16 Gauge and the 20 Amp fuse will let that lead "FRY". The #16 wire is only rated for 10 Amps. THAT fascinates me....but I only read what they post. The Thief is designed to steal voltage from a "charged House" battery and keep the Chassis Charged. In effect, it is a "trickle" charger....but not a REAL charger...in that it gets power from a 120 VAC source. NOW, Xantrex DOES sell a bunch of solenoids and such for it. You COULD turn it into, if you spent the money a REAL Charging system and used a solenoid. BUT, it is DOES NOT WORK like a Typical BIRD (BiDirectional) Charging system. Here is what you have, according to the prints.... On YOUR 2005 Imperial, there is a different system... You have the Proprietary Intellitec BIRD system. It has a Big Boy Solenoid and is controlled by Board 6 or RL 6. Look at the print that I included. This Board does a few things... It controls the BIRD charging system. It also controls the Battery Boost. It also works with the Salesman Switch. OK... FOR THE 2003 Executive (Dynasty and UP) , it does NOT have a FULL BIRD SYSTEM like your 2005 Imperial has....so make sure that you understand the difference....probably do...but the 2003 is older and different technology. YES, you COULD install an Echo Charger...but first, I would want to find out WHY the IRD and BIRD is not working. NOW, if you, like me, made a false assumption....until I was advised OTHERWISE...the 2003 System was NEVER meant to be a BIRD... SO... There are a few options that I would consider... FIRST.. The SIMPLE ONE. Hook up a Jumper Cable between the HOUSE and Chassis Positives. THEN let the Inverter (Charger) charge both. Many of us do that and actually BYPASS our BIRD system. One of our "Gurus" did that with a solid copper jumper and he only uses the 2008 BIRD system when camping. I put mine in storage last year and did the same. I used a #2 Gauge Jumper between the "nuts" on the House and Chassis. It is FINE. I have driven it and batteries were GREAT. Later on this spring, I will remove the Jumper and reconnect the control leads to the Big Boy and my BIRD will work fine. THAT, to me is the KISS solution. OK... The Xantrex, if you read the manual is a THIEF...and they work...if all is well. BUT, that is costly and does NOT give you a true BIRD solution....and even replacing or cleaning the BIG Boy and going back to the original 2003 Executive OEM configuration does NOT provide a TRUE BIRD solution. The ML-ACR is a 300 AMP replacement for the Big Boy. It is simple to install. For your IMPERIAL...I would NOT DO THAT...if every needed. We have two sources here that can repair the #6 (RL6 Board) on your Imperial...which also works the Salesman solenoids... SO, I would keep it STOCK. BUT, in the 2003, the Blue Seas ML-ACR eliminates the BIG BOY. It is simple and easy to install. The DOWNER... UNLESS you run a bundle (5 I think) harness from the ML-ACR to the front...you have to MANUALLY get out and walk to the RRB....put the ML-ACR in ON...as in BOOST and do your trick. THEN, you return it to the AUTO position. It works JUST LIKE your 2005 BIRD system. It is reliable and there are NO issues (other than the full blown up front REMOTE switch) with it. It is a GREAT alternative....from a cost stand point...if the Big Boy solenoid is toast....as well as the "isolator", the ML-ACR is cheaper and gives you the benefit of a FULL BIRD system. Hope this helps. Others may chime in...but that is what I KNOW...and also my opinion. GOOD LUCK... 445-0204-01-01_Rev-BDigital-Echo-Charger.pdf 2003 Dynasty High Current Print.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetjockey Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 (edited) In my first couple of post I describe the issue ,the model of coach and that it is not mine and not near me.so there is no need to revise my profile. Please reread those for clarification . I am trying to help a friend long distance. Maybe you didn’t read those early posts . I Made no mention of a Windsor in those and do know what they are and Monaco made them. Once againThe unit is a Monaco executive 43 Ds as I earlier described . Thanks to all as I think we will get this resolved from your help. I would be curious when you hardwire both sets of batteries together how much current you see being output by your alternator in travel. I would want to be comfortable with how that might affect alternator longevity. also you are likely tying lead acid agm to lead acid deep cycle . Don’t know how advisable that may be as often is recommend not to mix this types. On my equipment with multiple batteries if one fails it usually compromise the remaining batteries so I might be reluctant to hard wire different types and number and applications together. When your inverter fires up to run house high voltage are you drawing dc current from both house and chassis batteries.? Is there a possibility of running both house and chassis batteries down. Most likely there is some kind of isolator. how much max current is actually being diverted in echo charger operation. If chassis batteries are fully charged at engine shutdown I rarely see more that about six to 8 amps being diverted to them as measured by my victron shunt system. I observe the echo charger do it’s job and it seems perform evenly and nicely as I observe my victon system track the echo charger performance . I have lots of questions of which I do not have a definite answer. thankyou for the print attachments Edited February 9 by Jetjockey Addit and spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 56 minutes ago, Jetjockey said: In my first couple of post I describe the issue ,the model of coach and that it is not mine and not near me.so there is no need to revise my profile. Please reread those for clarification . I am trying to help a friend long distance. Maybe you didn’t read those early posts . I Made no mention of a Windsor in those and do know what they are and Monaco made them. Once againThe unit is a Monaco executive 43 Ds as I earlier described . Thanks to all as I think we will get this resolved from your help. I would be curious when you hardwire both sets of batteries together how much current you see being output by your alternator in travel. I would want to be comfortable with how that might affect alternator longevity. also you are likely tying lead acid agm to lead acid deep cycle . Don’t know how advisable that may be as often is recommend not to mix this types. On my equipment with multiple batteries if one fails it usually compromise the remaining batteries so I might be reluctant to hard wire different types and number and applications together. When your inverter fires up to run house high voltage are you drawing dc current from both house and chassis batteries.? Is there a possibility of running both house and chassis batteries down. Most likely there is some kind of isolator. how much max current is actually being diverted in echo charger operation. If chassis batteries are fully charged at engine shutdown I rarely see more that about six to 8 amps being diverted to them as measured by my victron shunt system. I observe the echo charger do it’s job and it seems perform evenly and nicely as I observe my victon system track the echo charger performance . I have lots of questions of which I do not have a definite answer. thankyou for the print attachments Your current profile has a WINDSOR and your Floor Plan. That is incorrect. It should be Imperial. I will revise your profile. The point is that many folks look at other's profiles and we, the administrators, like for them to accurate. OK...as to your questions. Hardwiring, as a temporary fix, is fine. Probably have a 200 Amp LN alternator. When you split that up between what the engine takes and what the chassis need and what the house needs, that is ample. NOW, the Voltage Regulator in the LN alternator takes care of overcharging. SO... YES... that is OK and will not damage anything. On YOUR Imperial, which has the Intellitec BIRD Module, that controls the BIRD functions. THUS, is one battery is compromised, then the Big Boy will shut down. NOW, if your BIRD RL6 or #6 board is not working, then we have TWO individuals that can repair them....and they do a great Job. @Frank McElroy & @pwhittle Frank is our MASTER Intellitec and Kongsberg CCM expert....the ONLY one that has successfully repaired the CCM Boards. He is a wizard.... They will also help you, offline, diagnose and determine if it is the Big Boy or the Board. They have probably, combined, fixed upwards of 100 of these boards...so they are NOT amateurs and they are more "TRUSTWORTHY" than some of the "shops".... but that is my opinion, again. He was the one that suggested the hard connection and fabricated one from Copper Tubing that fits into the configuration of the BIg Boy... That is in YOUR motor home as his 2008 is the same. My take, since you have BMK (Battery Monitor Kit) is that you can see MORE than most and sometimes that gets confusing. My comments are addressed at the 2003. That is an IRD Bird...and is a THIEF...just like the Echo. Bottom Line...issues with the 2003, then I would just abandon it. Odds are the Big Boy needs cleaning. YES. You could clean it up. BUT, an enterprising individual MIGHT think that they could use the ECHO as a BIRD. YES....of course that would WORK...and Xantrex sells a variety of Solenoids for it to control rather than being a thief. BUT, you need a 200 AMP CONTINUOUS duty Solenoid....and I'm not really sure that it would do BIRD charging...as the circuitry in the Echo is a THEIF... The BIG BOY is a PULSED or reduced voltage device. It is NOT rated for 100% 12 VDC control voltage... it will burn up....trust me on that... The beauty of the Ml-ACR is that is a SINGLE SOLENOID device. It would replace the Big Boy and eliminate the IRD. . IT is ease to install. You don't have to use the remote... Just walk every once and a while. You use the selector switch to go to ON....then start your genny or whatever....do it. THEN set it back to AUTO and drive on. That's about it.... SO...Bottom LINE...Temporary works and is NOT a problem. BUT, if there is an issue with the Storage Power, it WILL drain down both. NOW, the IRD on the 2003 Exec SHOULD protect from that as it is a THIEF.... But, if the Big Boy is defective...then that won't work. The long range solution, if I were doing it,... ML-ACR and then have a FULL BIRD system. The Blue Seas has the OMG...a battery failed...and will shut off. It has the same logic, different circuitry, as the Intellitec Board 6 in your 2005 Imperial. We have run the $$ numbers. For folks like me that have a BIRD module and a BIG Boy, it would be cheaper to put in the ML-ACR... Look at the prices. Blue Seas has great tech support and is a trusted vendor. They are one of the brands that we recommend to replace the disconnect switches. Hope this explains it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetjockey Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 (edited) Thanks for the further response. When you say the blue seas detects a battery failure I assume you mean a battery bank failure and not an individual battery in that bank.Interesting. When I pull up my profile it’s says imperial please don’t change that.it is listed correctly in my posts nere. There is a jw James here with a J that does profile a Windsor . I would bet that is the profile you are looking at and not mine . Or your the system has confused me with his profile. Not a big deal. Please look more carefully is there a way when I pull my profile it’s different than what yOu see. Believe me I do know what motorhome I have although I may not know much more lol thanks. Good to know of blue seas products also in my imperial the sales men’s switch has been eliminated so therefore the echocharger was installed before me. Edited February 9 by Jetjockey Spell addit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 44 minutes ago, Jetjockey said: Thanks for the further response. When you say the blue seas detects a battery failure I assume you mean a battery bank failure and not an individual battery in that bank.Interesting. When I pull up my profile it’s says imperial. There is a jw James here with a J that does profile a Windsor . I would bet that is the profile you are looking at and not mine . Or your the system has confused me with his profile. Not a big deal. Please look more carefully is there a way when I pull my profile it’s different than what yOu see. Believe me I do know what motorhome I have although I may not know much more lol thanks. Good to know of blue seas products also in my imperial the sales men’s switch has been eliminated so therefore the echocharger was installed.?.? first up... Your Profile is available to me and I can edit. I clicked on your NAME and it had a WINDSOR 42PBQ listed. I edited that to Imperial. I also Capitalized the words and names in your signature. I did NOT go searching for you. I don't need to. For whatever reason, there was the word Windsor and 42 PBQ in it under MODEL...and it was corrected. Next....I DO know @jacwjames. We correspond and also talk. I did NOT confuse your profile....so lets move on. The Blue Seas acts like the Intellitec system. IF there is a failure and one BANK will not charge properly or is taking all the current...it shuts down. That is why the Blue Seas is a good compromise for folks with NO BIRD or even me with the cheaper BIRD...but might be an overkill and such for the Dynasty... PLUS, you really have to understand HOW the Dynasty works to do it properly. Fixing the Dynasty is a cheaper option and we have the resources here....without the exorbiant price that some shops charge... The Intelltec Board 6 is more precise...IMHO... Now as to YOUR Imperial... Saying that the Salesman Switch has been eliminated.....that is a broad subject. On the Dynasty, bypassing the salesman switch is NOT recommended....but folks do it. The reason... When the Intellitec MPX gets in a funk, then you have to manually turn off the HOUSE bank or disconnect it. If you left the Salesman switch intact...then cycling it off, wait, and then back on...after a minute of so....the MPX reboots and all is generally well. We have had some, and I fell victim to this, that disconnected the battery. OPPS...when you disconnect with the MPX ON....then you get a spark...it starts to reboot...then as you tighten the cables, it gets a second spark... That confuses it. The PROPER way to reboot the Dynasty (Imperial or all upper ends with the MPX) is to use the Salesman switch. OTHERWISE...us the House Battery cutoff. The switch is more convenient and our experts don't bypass their salesman switches. Now....the Salesman Switch has NOTHING to do with the BIRD functions on board 6. Their are 3 basic circuits out of Board 6. One is the Pulsed signal to the Big Boy. The other is the BOOST switch to the Big Boy. The other is the Salesman Switch (you have two Solenoids...I think) functions. If you bypassed the solenoids, that did NOT impact the BIRD system which is controlled and makes the Big Boy function properly. That's the way I understand it and what the print shows. SO, if you left everything in tact on board 6 as did not disconnect the signal from it to the Big Boy, it should be working. BUT, if there was an issue with board six...as there is sometimes.... Then the BIRD system was misdiagnosed. There are specific steps to determine if the Big Boy's coil is working... Then if the Contacts are OK or need to be cleaned. THEN if the BIRD SYSTEM is not working, you test the output from Board 6. I am NOT the expert...but there is a self diagnostic and Frank McElroy has helped many folks not familiar with it....go through it. Then if it is a defective Board 6, he fixed it. The MAIN TEST... Is the Big Boy HUMMING and HOT to the Touch....that usually means that board 6 is OK? Just passing along how the circuits work and how they interact and why the Echo would not be recommended. It is a THEIF...and it will NOT provide BI-DIRECTIONAL. It is ONE WAY....Steal from the HOUSE and give to the Chassis. If you killed or the BIRD system was not working, then there is NO WAY, per reading the Echo, that you have HOUSE charging while driving. You might want to test the Big Boy... Odds are... it MIGHT be working and the Echo was NOT needed.... ONE EASY TEST... KILL the 50 Amp power or turn off the Generator. Then board 6 will stop sending power to the Big Boy. NOW, not knowing, without a marked print, where the Echo is hooked up... If you use the BOOST and hear a CLUNK... Then Board 6 is working. You CAN TURN OFF the HOUSE and CHASSIS disconnects. THAT definitely kills the power to board 6. Did the BIG BOY quit WITH NO AC Power and Engine NOT running...then you can turn back on the Disconnects...then have someone up front use the BOOST. That should be a CLUNK...as long as the switch is held on....That means that BOARD 6 is sending out the BOOST signal. If you then release the BOOST...and wait a few minutes, the Big Boy will drop out. NOW apply AC power or start the Genny. CLUNK means that Board 6 just sent out the pulsed signal.. If there is no charging....then odds are the contacts need cleaning... That's how it works and how it was designed.... That's it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetjockey Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 My posts. have always shown imperial at the bottom . My profile when I click on it has always said imperial. I must vibe missing something. Thanks at least it may be less confusing on your end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 20 minutes ago, Jetjockey said: My posts. have always shown imperial at the bottom . My profile when I click on it has always said imperial. I must vibe missing something. Thanks at least it may be less confusing on your end. All I know is what was in the PROFILE last night from my phone and this morning before I started to answer the questions you posed.....and WINDSOR was listed as the MODEL I changed it to IMPERIAL, as I said I would. I see all of the information...not what the general membership can see. YES, your signature was correct. But that did not match the MODEL information. It's fixed....so lets move on and focus on the issue. You can PM me if you want to pursue that...I THINK one of the administrators could chase down the profile updates...but this is not needed as I told you what was there. When you just clicked on it, it was already edited and correct. Back on topic and the ECHO... Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetjockey Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 Very good. Gained a little understanding and will solve it from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now