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Coach controlled module broken, where to get another one?


Gayle H

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Posted (edited)

We have a 2009 Monaco Dynasty.

We took it in to fix the switch for the step cover, overhead map light over passenger and drivers seats, remote to unlock door quit, aquahot electric switch, aquahot diesel switch (both on the dash), starter for generator on dash, power boost for generator, dash lights stay on always. All of this just quit one day. It all worked fine and then one day none of it did. Now h the service tech can’t even get it started. Batteries are brand new, all of them!! Cha-Ching$$ The service tech is now telling us it’s this computer controlled module for the coach. That’s all fine as we have a maintenance contract so it should be covered. All except that it’s an obsolete part and  that no one makes that particular after market part. He told us our bus can’t be fixed now. I’m not sure I’m believing this. Any one have any ideas?  

Edited by Gayle H
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I just had a module rebuild at industrial repair service ,had the sam problem it wasn't produced any more .there phone number is 800 950 2349 they even give a 2 year warranty. I did find a replacement modulartor but they were 3 time the cost of a rebuilt one . good luck. Brad

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1 hour ago, vito.a said:

Hopefully it's one of the Intellitec multiplex switch modules.  M&M RV Electronics can sell you a new module. 

M&M RV Electronics|RV Electronic Repair|Authorized Dealer|Ohio|Florida (mmrvelectronics.com)

It will need to be programmed.  Paul Whittle can reprogram one for you.  It would be wise to back up the programming for all your modules.   

Is Paul doing back up now for the Intellitec. Last time I spoke with him he was working on it.

 

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@Gayle H Can you post pictures of the switches that are giving you issues?

@Scotty Hutto these issues sound like house not chassis.

There is not a lot that cannot be fixed with the Intellitec system or normal switches.

Paul

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Gayle H said:

We have a 2009 Monaco Dynasty.

We took it in to fix the switch for the step cover, overhead map light over passenger and drivers seats, remote to unlock door quit, aquahot electric switch, aquahot diesel switch (both on the dash), starter for generator on dash, power boost for generator, dash lights stay on always. All of this just quit one day. It all worked fine and then one day none of it did. Now h the service tech can’t even get it started. Batteries are brand new, all of them!! Cha-Ching$$ The service tech is now telling us it’s this computer controlled module for the coach. That’s all fine as we have a maintenance contract so it should be covered. All except that it’s an obsolete part and  that no one makes that particular after market part. He told us our bus can’t be fixed now. I’m not sure I’m believing this. Any one have any ideas?  

Your 2009 Dynasty has a chassis multiplex system.  All the dash switches are multiplexed to the CCM module in the front run bay.  There are two loops with each having a master and associated slave modules.  Do any of the dash switch modules still work?

Unfortunately these switch modules are obsolete as well as the CCM module itself.  The dash Kongsberg/Eaton multiplex system is completely different from the house Intellitec multiplex system.

You could try to reboot the system by disconnecting both the house and chassis batteries.  Also check the fuse in the front run bay that provides power for the dash multiplex switch modules.

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16 hours ago, Gayle H said:

dash lights stay on always

They probably didn't bother to disconnect the start batteries,  probably couldn't see the dash lights were on, and the lights ran the start batteried down.                Charging the batteries might allow you to drive it.

The obsolete Kongsberg is a catastrophe, some beautiful coaches have the system. Looks like someone would develope a work around, cost might be prohibative though.   What all does the Kongsberg control?

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Ray, the Kongsberg chassis multiplex system controls all the dash switches on both the driver's and passenger side.  It also controls all the smartwheel functions including wipers, and cruise control (the CCM replaced the smartwheel control module).  Sometimes if only the switches have a problem, the smartwheel functions might still work.  We need to know if any of the dash switches still work.

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Posted (edited)

There may be multiple issues here.  The Aqua Hot (both diesel and electric) switches, door unlock switch, and generator start switch are controlled by the Intellitec lighted multiplex switch modules.  I'm not sure on the map lights, entry steps, or dash lights.   It just depends on exactly which lights.  The ceiling lights are also controlled by Intellitec panel, but the small flexible map lights may be on the chassis system.  

Edited by vito.a
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1 hour ago, Frank McElroy said:

Ray, the Kongsberg chassis multiplex system controls all the dash switches on both the driver's and passenger side.  It also controls all the smartwheel functions including wipers, and cruise control (the CCM replaced the smartwheel control module).  Sometimes if only the switches have a problem, the smartwheel functions might still work.  We need to know if any of the dash switches still work.

Thanks Frank,  surely it doesn't control the ignition or the ability to drive.   If it does,  it seems like a very poor design.  The whole thing is a bad idea IMHO, not having  the ability to operate in a backup manner.

2 minutes ago, vito.a said:

There may be multiple issues here.  The Aqua Hot (both diesel and electric) switches, door unlock switch, and generator start switch are controlled by the Intellitec lighted multiplex switch modules.  I'm not sure on the map lights, entry steps, or dash lights.   It just depends on exactly which lights.  The ceiling lights are also controlled by Intellitec panel, but the small flexible map lights may be on the chassis system.  

He mentioned new batteries so I wonder how new they are and could this have started when they were replaced.  We know the chassis batteries are possibly dead since it won't start, that seems to happen a lot at repair shops, you would think they would learn.

So many times the complex issues turns out to be simple.  Can't count the times my nerves were frazzled by over thinking a problem until I stopped took a break, usually sleep on it, start all over at the begining and then with my nerves calmed go right to the problem.   The tech was likely pulling his hair out, and then he heard obsolete,  that was enough for him.  Threw in the towel and went home, maybe even quit.  It's no wonder so many shops say we don't work on RVs.

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5 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

Thanks Frank,  surely it doesn't control the ignition or the ability to drive.   If it does,  it seems like a very poor design.  The whole thing is a bad idea IMHO, not having  the ability to operate in a backup manner.

He mentioned new batteries so I wonder how new they are and could this have started when they were replaced.  We know the chassis batteries are possibly dead since it won't start, that seems to happen a lot at repair shops, you would think they would learn.

So many times the complex issues turns out to be simple.  Can't count the times my nerves were frazzled by over thinking a problem until I stopped took a break, usually sleep on it, start all over at the begining and then with my nerves calmed go right to the problem.   The tech was likely pulling his hair out, and then he heard obsolete,  that was enough for him.  Threw in the towel and went home, maybe even quit.  It's no wonder so many shops say we don't work on RVs.

Actually Ray it does to an extent. The CCM and the ECM and the TCM are all linked together witht he CCM being the mother ship. The CCM is powered by the house batteries, not the chassis batteries. If your house batteries go dead you will have MANY issues with the CCM and anything it touches.

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31 minutes ago, vito.a said:

There may be multiple issues here.  The Aqua Hot (both diesel and electric) switches, door unlock switch, and generator start switch are controlled by the Intellitec lighted multiplex switch modules.  I'm not sure on the map lights, entry steps, or dash lights.   It just depends on exactly which lights.  The ceiling lights are also controlled by Intellitec panel, but the small flexible map lights may be on the chassis system.  

The AH switch on the dash is not controlled by the intelletec system and even though there is a gen start switch in the bedroom it is connected through the CCM and will not work as the dash switch or the bedroom switch work to start or secure. The dash switch for the AH is for the the engine heat loop and does not turn the system on or off as that is done by the intelletec side. BUT the ones over the sink do work and are controlled by the intelletec as they do not control the engine heat loop. These Kongsberg coaches are a totally different animal.....yes I am lucky enough to own a broken one.

7 minutes ago, Gayle H said:

part0(23).jpg

part0(24).jpg

part0(25).jpg

You have the CCM coach even though what your pictures are showing is just the relay panel and not the actual CCM. The actuall CCM is just down and to the right of your picture. Black square box about 6" square. Also I sent you a private message.

 

17 hours ago, bradc344 said:

I just had a module rebuild at industrial repair service ,had the sam problem it wasn't produced any more .there phone number is 800 950 2349 they even give a 2 year warranty. I did find a replacement modulartor but they were 3 time the cost of a rebuilt one . good luck. Brad

You show to own a Neptune, that would not be a CCM coach. What module did you have rebuilt?

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I just tried to post pics. The service guy took the pics so I'm sorry for the poor detail. I will try to go into the shop tomorrow and take them myself.  All the batteries are about 9 months old. We just replaced them because they were the original ones in the bus when we purchased it. The old ones weren't dead but after awhile they would never fully charge so we replaced them before we had issues.  The shop has had the bus plugged in this whole time so the batteries never went dead while they were working on it. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and help on all of this. Its VERY frustrating. I hope the pics help clarify what I was trying to say. 

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1 minute ago, Gayle H said:

I just tried to post pics. The service guy took the pics so I'm sorry for the poor detail. I will try to go into the shop tomorrow and take them myself.  All the batteries are about 9 months old. We just replaced them because they were the original ones in the bus when we purchased it. The old ones weren't dead but after awhile they would never fully charge so we replaced them before we had issues.  The shop has had the bus plugged in this whole time so the batteries never went dead while they were working on it. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and help on all of this. Its VERY frustrating. I hope the pics help clarify what I was trying to say. 

There is no need to worry about getting a picture. Those of us with the same set up know exactly what it is. If you wish to give me a shout check your messages. I sent you my phone number. Or I will post it here, I don't care. 609-346-8871

4 minutes ago, Gayle H said:

I just tried to post pics. The service guy took the pics so I'm sorry for the poor detail. I will try to go into the shop tomorrow and take them myself.  All the batteries are about 9 months old. We just replaced them because they were the original ones in the bus when we purchased it. The old ones weren't dead but after awhile they would never fully charge so we replaced them before we had issues.  The shop has had the bus plugged in this whole time so the batteries never went dead while they were working on it. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and help on all of this. Its VERY frustrating. I hope the pics help clarify what I was trying to say. 

This is mine, but the black box you see is the broken CCM.

IMG_5342.jpg.1ecc29bfa382bec15255cfcc40b96807.jpg

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1 hour ago, Ray Davis said:

Thanks Frank,  surely it doesn't control the ignition or the ability to drive.   If it does,  it seems like a very poor design.  The whole thing is a bad idea IMHO, not having  the ability to operate in a backup manner.

He mentioned new batteries so I wonder how new they are and could this have started when they were replaced.  We know the chassis batteries are possibly dead since it won't start, that seems to happen a lot at repair shops, you would think they would learn.

So many times the complex issues turns out to be simple.  Can't count the times my nerves were frazzled by over thinking a problem until I stopped took a break, usually sleep on it, start all over at the begining and then with my nerves calmed go right to the problem.   The tech was likely pulling his hair out, and then he heard obsolete,  that was enough for him.  Threw in the towel and went home, maybe even quit.  It's no wonder so many shops say we don't work on RVs.

Correct, you can still start the engine but depending on which switch modules don't work, you likely would have no headlights, mirror adjustment or Jake brake.  If the smart system failed it would mean no wipers or cruise control.  Attached is a schematic of the dash multiplex switch modules and interface to the CCM.38080796_A Eaton Sw Wiring.pdf

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Frank,  So it appears one could at least get home providing the trans and throttle will work..  I'm sure I could wire up headlights and wipers, maybe even the jake brake, cruise might have to wait.

16 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Correct, you can still start the engine but depending on which switch modules don't work, you likely would have no headlights, mirror adjustment or Jake brake.  If the smart system failed it would mean no wipers or cruise control.  Attached is a schematic of the dash multiplex switch modules and interface to the CCM.38080796_A Eaton Sw Wiring.pdf

 

Edited by Ray Davis
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2 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

Thanks Frank,  So it appears one could at least get home providing the trans will work..  I'm sure I could wire up headlights and wipers, maybe even the jake brake, cruise might have to wait.

 

When Monaco went full chassis multiplex, the Cummins engine was also programmed to take input for the Jake and the cruise control off the engine databus vs hardwiring directly to the engine ECM.  To convert back to conventional setup would require running wiring from new dash switches directly to the engine ECM and then through the Cummins Insite software reconfiguring from multiplex to hard wire inputs.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ray Davis said:

Thanks Frank,  So it appears one could at least get home providing the trans and throttle will work..  I'm sure I could wire up headlights and wipers, maybe even the jake brake, cruise might have to wait.

 

When mine started failing I could still start and run, but I continually received warning lights on the dash for trans, DPF filter, and ATC as the CCM somewhat controls everything. I was able to find a shop that was able to solve that part of the issue for me, and my coach never left me high and dry. But as the system completely failed I lost all dash switch functions. it does not prevent me from driving but it takes away any dash switch feature that would be operated by a dash switch including the gen switch in the bedroom even though it is an intellitec switch. So the CCM has to control the start/stop feature and not the intellitec system. The shop that did my trans portion repair said the system could have easily thrown me into limp mode except all I was receiving were warning indicators and the actual system was still operating under normal conditions and was not actually having a failure. I was able to fix all of my smart wheel features by cutting supply power from the CCM and running 12v through a 12v-5v converter as the smart requires 5v. The brake lights and all turn signals work as they are chassis driven as well as day time running lights but there are no headlights or marker lights as they require an on/off input from a dash switch.

I know Frank is much smarter than I am, but he and I have spent litteraly hours (MANY) on the phone, reading schmatics and me tracing wires and doing voltage tests. I can't fix the system, but I feel pretty confident I know how it works and where the wires are all at...lol

As of right now there is none, no, zero fix for a downed CCM or any of the switch pods on these coaches. M&M is working on it but as of a few hours ago they were still in bench mode and did not have a fix. I am working with a couple other companies and have gotten to a point they need to see/touch but it will be fall before that can happen. Believe me if I find a repair I will be the first to jump up and down and spread the word. I have spent several many dollars trying to diagnose and solve this issue. I have talked to many, many people to include Kongsberg and Eaton engineers to not much avail. REV is of no assistance as they have no parts and would send anything broken to M&M. I am currently #2 on M&M wait list to be fixed, but they have no idea when that will be and may not even be this year. 

Edited by Brett63
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11 hours ago, Nevada Rob said:

Paul Whittle did you develop your computer backup system for the Intellitec system???

Hi @Nevada Rob,

The chance of an Intellitec CPU system going out is pretty low. The only one I know about  first hand is a Wanderlodge owner who managed to short 120V onto the Intellitec multiplex bus and damaged every module and keypad. We were still able to read the programming from his CPU and load it into the replacement.

If you don’t have a backup of the CPU it can be some work to get the house side of the coach operational again, so a backup is a good thing to have, but the chances of needing it are very small.

Keypads do fail, but the programming is fairly easy to recreate without a backup of the keypad. The problem is that the keypads used in Monaco’s were specific to Monaco in shape, size, and appearance. Other available Intellitec keypads can be programmed to work on our coaches, but you may find you have to modify the mounting hole for the switch. I do have a small number of Monaco keypads, and am always on the lookout for more.

The challenge I ran into with the kits is that it would cost about $500 for me to sell. I just feel bad selling something that is not worth what it costs.

I can backup Intellitec systems. I think I backed up ten at the Gathering.

If any of the group and I find ourselves in the same location, I’ll back yours up for you too.

Most of the time we are in Woodstock, GA. See if you can stop by.

Paul

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12 hours ago, pwhittle said:

Hi @Nevada Rob,

The chance of an Intellitec CPU system going out is pretty low. The only one I know about  first hand is a Wanderlodge owner who managed to short 120V onto the Intellitec multiplex bus and damaged every module and keypad. We were still able to read the programming from his CPU and load it into the replacement.

If you don’t have a backup of the CPU it can be some work to get the house side of the coach operational again, so a backup is a good thing to have, but the chances of needing it are very small.

Keypads do fail, but the programming is fairly easy to recreate without a backup of the keypad. The problem is that the keypads used in Monaco’s were specific to Monaco in shape, size, and appearance. Other available Intellitec keypads can be programmed to work on our coaches, but you may find you have to modify the mounting hole for the switch. I do have a small number of Monaco keypads, and am always on the lookout for more.

The challenge I ran into with the kits is that it would cost about $500 for me to sell. I just feel bad selling something that is not worth what it costs.

I can backup Intellitec systems. I think I backed up ten at the Gathering.

If any of the group and I find ourselves in the same location, I’ll back yours up for you too.

Most of the time we are in Woodstock, GA. See if you can stop by.

Paul

Paul,

You are certainly the expert.  But to add a comment made to me or maybe “us” at the Gathering.  The M&M team did a complete CPU install and had to reprogram by following all the switches and such.  Owner had no backup.  The Intellitec CPU failed due to stupidity.  The owner went to a Walmart and purchased new house batteries.

Walmart back then was selling a special RV battery.  I know, I had two of them in my Winnebago gasser.  They were 12 VDC and used in pairs in parallel…and were also the starting battery.  Not well suited or designed.

Walmart put in all new batteries…6 or so of them as it, I believe, a Dynasty or maybe 8.  Guess what? They installed them exactly like the 6 Volts were installed.

The Intellitec CPU did not digest the overdosed voltage, 24 VDC.  That was at least 15 years ago.  Took them 2 weeks to replace the CPU and all the Intellitec components.  

I THINK THIS NEEDS TO BE STATED….IT IS IMPERATIVE TO HAVE CRITICAL COMPONENT’S BACKED UP…..

As an aside, real world, a few years ago a friend’s 2008 Navigator would not start one morning in an Orlando CG on a Monday. He called the Ex GM of the HR Dealership where he bought it  when the Cummins tech said, “There is NOT a copy of the ECM program on file in the last Cummins dealership that serviced the MH”.  The quandary was the Monaco interfaces from the dash, cruise, and “you name it” inputs & outputs”. Cummins said the engine would start and run,  but past that, it might have severe drivability issue…or not even be able to be driven.

The EX-GM and myself and the owner had caravaned several times….  The EX- GM said to call me as I might know where a copy was due to being a moderator on the old site.  My first call was to Frank M. He had a copy of a 2008 in his files….he and I separately talked to the tech and went over some details and also fielded questions. Obviously Frank was the expert, but I had filled in the blanks.  Bottom line, by Noon, he was on his way with a rebuild ECM.  We  caravaned at a sporting event that weekend in NC, as planned, and he reported, and still does, not ONE issue with the Monaco/Cummins interfaces.  

I would recommend a copy of the Cummins ECM be in an owner’s possession in the MH.  Also the Allison TCM.  Thanks for chiming in and it is great to have a resource like you as part of the group.

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Having backups to the Intellitec CPU program and copies of the Cummins, Allison and Bendix configuration files are good to have if you ever had a failure.  Having this information will be very cost effective in easily reprogramming a new computer module.

However, failures are very rare and quite frankly, any shop who really knows what they are doing will start with the same model year program and go from there.  Today, I'm sure that's what M&M would do.  By now they must have copies of all model year CPU software Monaco used just by providing copies to those coach owners having M&M read their Intellitec CPU.

Between Paul and myself we probably have enough model year Intellitec CPU programs to cover most model year coaches.  In later years like on mine, Monaco wrote one software program to cover all 2008 models and options.  Sure, there might have been some custom keypad configurations either at the factory or by a previous owner that would need to be fixed but that's easy to do. 

The new Intellitec CPU models have higher clock speeds and even if you had a copy of the old software it won't work on the new CPU modules unless the clock speed timing is reprogrammed.  Both Paul and I know how to do that.

Some folks with older Intellitec CPU programs updated to software with newer master keypad functions.  Bill Groves used the features in my 2008 software to update his 2006 coach program to get the newer features like what's on my coach.

As for the Cummins, Allison, and Bendix ABS configuration files, some of us already have that info.  On a few occasions, I've already provided mine to a Cummins shop where one of our users had the info wiped out from a dead ECM and another had the info lost from a software reflash update.

All I'm saying is that members of our group do have options if the worst nightmare happens and you don't have a backup.

Unfortunately, I'm still trying to help others with a catastrophic failure of a chassis multiplex system.  There is now a good fix for smartwheel problems but no solution yet for dash switch module failures.

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  • 5 months later...

Q: So where would I go or who would I see to get each of these systems backed up?

CUMMINS ECM -

ALLISON -

INTELLITEC (is this just the Smart EMS panel,  or more?)

BENDIX ABS (I don't even know what this is or if I have it) -

It's getting hard to sleep wondering how much more I don't know about this beast.  Thanks and hats off to all the helpful folks on this site! 

 

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