Progressive HW50C hard wired 2nd display

[jacwjames]

I had a second display for my surgeguard mounted in the coach.  In July, while on vacation, the display started to go wonky and when I started playing with it the end pulled out of the cable.   I know the display is good as I can take it outside to where I have one mounted in the small bay and it works. 

I started to look at running a new cable, Progressive wants ~$45 for a cable.   Hopefully that ain't going to happen as I have the RJ11 ends and tool to make a cable so hopefully I can make one.

Does anyone know the wiring from end to end.

[DavidL]

28 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I had a second display for my surgeguard mounted in the coach.  In July, while on vacation, the display started to go wonky and when I started playing with it the end pulled out of the cable.   I know the display is good as I can take it outside to where I have one mounted in the small bay and it works. 

I started to look at running a new cable, Progressive wants ~$45 for a cable.   Hopefully that ain't going to happen as I have the RJ11 ends and tool to make a cable so hopefully I can make one.

Does anyone know the wiring from end to end.

For lack of anyone having those specifics, just cut the cable end off (which you have to do anyway) and figure out the wiring with a multimeter and duplicate same wiring on the new RJ11 end.  Before putting the new end on, use the wires to determine if there are any opens / shorts across the cable by disconnecting both ends and selectively shorting two wires together to determine if you can detect the newly closed connection on the other end (the end with the RJ11 still on).

Edited September 2, 2023 by DavidL

[Tom Cherry]

28 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I had a second display for my surgeguard mounted in the coach.  In July, while on vacation, the display started to go wonky and when I started playing with it the end pulled out of the cable.   I know the display is good as I can take it outside to where I have one mounted in the small bay and it works. 

I started to look at running a new cable, Progressive wants ~$45 for a cable.   Hopefully that ain't going to happen as I have the RJ11 ends and tool to make a cable so hopefully I can make one.

Does anyone know the wiring from end to end.

A bit contrary to the previous post....so read both and then try this.  Progressive DOES specify that this IS a Data cable....but you have one....to verify....

Here is what I THINK I understand.  First..  Since you have the internal remote...  Pull out the internal display and then look at the ends of the wires or the number (6 or 4) and the sequence.  Then do the same on the other end (from the internal.  

Based on my limited knowledge...there used to be, in IT, what was called a Twisted Pair.  So, if you have a 2 pair (4 wires) cable and wanted to used it for DATA, you took a 4 wire Phone cable and then "reversed" had a different color sequence on the other end.  A phone cable is the same....

Now, there are, and you can order them, the RJ11/12 cables.  These are 3 pairs in this one versus 2 pairs in a phone cable.  

SO....look at the original cable.  Then, see how the ends are or are different and try that...or order one from Amazon...

My gut, and don't depend on it....the Progressive is a 2 pair...but the ends are different...and that is why is is a data cable...but you have the means to do that.

[DavidL]

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/thermostat-ac-help-with-updates-and-solution-408550.html

Post 13 has a diagram of a "data" cable.  Which is not necessarily twisted pair.  Just means the ends are wired opposite of a more available telephone cable.

But, verify on your cable end what you have before plugging untested things in.

 

[Tom Cherry]

OK...curiosity.....here is what, if you have the 4 pin connector and a two pair (4 wire) you probably have...

One end.... 1 - Y; 2 - G; 3 - R; 4 - BK   OTHER END....  1 - BK; 2 - R; 3 - G; 4 Y.  That is called a "Cross Pined or Cross Over" cable and is for DATA.  A phone cable is the same on both ends

 

[jacwjames]

I'll try and check the existing cable, hard to see the colors, may have to pull out my "readers"🤬

[Dr4Film]

Jim,

It doesn't matter providing that when you crimp on the new RJ11 plug the wires are in the same order as the one you are removing.

Remember that these cables are DATA cables and not telephone cables.

The RJ11 Plug is clear, just look at the color format inside the plug.

 

RJ11 Plug Cnfiguation.pdf

Edited September 2, 2023 by Dr4Film

[cbr046]

You could run a single wire to the other end, connect to one wire of the data cable at a time and ohm out each wire in the data cable.  Somewhat tedious but will tell you if one wire in the cable is broken.  Wiggling the connector at each end will tell you if that end has the broken wire, or bad connector . . . . or you can just crimp on an RJ11 at each end (shotgun method).

- bob

[Tom Cherry]

5 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I'll try and check the existing cable, hard to see the colors, may have to pull out my "readers"🤬

I KNOW you have at least 25 ft of hookup wire (18 gauge) will work.  Get a helper.  Use a needle in an alligator clip.  Then run the hookup wire from inside to the end of the cable that is plugged into the HW50C.  Then "ohm" out the pins.  I'm still almost 100% that you have a 4 wire cable and that it is the crossover that David and I came up with.  NOW....if you REALLY want to do it the easy way (assuming your peppers fail you).  I used to have a stash of "Biscuits" of the 4 pin phone connections boxes for adding extensions.  Get two of them.  They have the 4 wire terminals on the back.  Use an alligator clip and hook up to one of the yellows....then use your wire lead out the window and then test the BLACK.  If the original HW50C was a data or crossover cable.  Then Yellow and Black will show continuity.  Then follow the color codes I laid out or David's diagram.  THAT is 100% the way to test.  

I have confidence....and you will save $$....

[DavidL]

The REAL savings is the labor to run a new cable from back to front....many hours....

 

If I can find a communication protocol document for Progressive devices, maybe I will build a solution...

Anyone have a link?

Edited September 2, 2023 by DavidL

[tmw188]

Jim if this helps when I did mine yrs back and used the in house phone wire Jack I had to rotate the wire end 180 for it to work thru the in house phone wiring.  It sure that’s what your asking?

[Tom Cherry]

1 minute ago, tmw188 said:

Jim if this helps when I did mine yrs back and used the in house phone wire Jack I had to rotate the wire end 180 for it to work thru the in house phone wiring.  It sure that’s what your asking?

That vindicates the precious posts….the ends are reversed.  Simple and verified…

[dandick66]

23 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

A bit contrary to the previous post....so read both and then try this.  Progressive DOES specify that this IS a Data cable....but you have one....to verify....

Here is what I THINK I understand.  First..  Since you have the internal remote...  Pull out the internal display and then look at the ends of the wires or the number (6 or 4) and the sequence.  Then do the same on the other end (from the internal.  

Based on my limited knowledge...there used to be, in IT, what was called a Twisted Pair.  So, if you have a 2 pair (4 wires) cable and wanted to used it for DATA, you took a 4 wire Phone cable and then "reversed" had a different color sequence on the other end.  A phone cable is the same....

Now, there are, and you can order them, the RJ11/12 cables.  These are 3 pairs in this one versus 2 pairs in a phone cable.  

SO....look at the original cable.  Then, see how the ends are or are different and try that...or order one from Amazon...

My gut, and don't depend on it....the Progressive is a 2 pair...but the ends are different...and that is why is is a data cable...but you have the means to do that.

Twisted pair is just a term for the wire sets being twisted together instead of straight runs.  The twisting helps reduce interference and cross talk.  Can be used for voice or data.  
 

You could buy a junction block like this.  Plug your good end into it you’ll be able to determine what wire goes to terminals 1-4.  Then just take the other end of the cable and make sure you wire it the same when you use your crimper for the new connector.  
 

https://www.amazon.com/Allen-Tel-Products-AT468-4-Conductor/dp/B005M1YQ98/ref=asc_df_B005M1YQ98/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=194024095585&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13725825128469133732&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008394&hvtargid=pla-311062674930&th=1

[jacwjames]

Well, I pulled out the little bit of hair I had left trying to make a cable.  Probably a dozen attempts without success. 

I'm working on another project and installing a small inverter/charger with remote in a van so I decided to try the long cable that came with the remote and it worked.  The wire order is clearly visible so I tried making a similar cable.  Still no luck. 

So now I'm thinking the RJ11 ends that I bought aren't compatible with my tool and or aren't the correct size.  After making a cable I tested ohms on each conductor and it showed good, but no amount of pushing, pulling, wiggling resulted in the display working. 

So I'm going to check and see if Walmart or Lowes sells a cable or going order some new RJ11 ends and see if I can get a cable made. 

[Martinvz]

Have you swapped the 2 display units to make sure both are working and that that the cable is operational or defective? If not, that will help isolating the probpem area. 

[Tom Cherry]

15 hours ago, jacwjames said:

Well, I pulled out the little bit of hair I had left trying to make a cable.  Probably a dozen attempts without success. 

I'm working on another project and installing a small inverter/charger with remote in a van so I decided to try the long cable that came with the remote and it worked.  The wire order is clearly visible so I tried making a similar cable.  Still no luck. 

So now I'm thinking the RJ11 ends that I bought aren't compatible with my tool and or aren't the correct size.  After making a cable I tested ohms on each conductor and it showed good, but no amount of pushing, pulling, wiggling resulted in the display working. 

So I'm going to check and see if Walmart or Lowes sells a cable or going order some new RJ11 ends and see if I can get a cable made. 

OK, here’s your cheap and easy fix.  See the photo below.  Buy one of these.  Do the crossover wiring there.  Then use use 2 short phone cables.  Instant “Phone to Data Cable” adapter….

Seriously, this might be easier and less frustrating than crimping and such.  Perhaps not as “challenging” to the I KNOW I CAN FIX THIS…..EVENTUALLY type of personality….but my money and logic is that it will work.  The color hookups are in one of my previous posts…..

[jacwjames]

24 minutes ago, Martinvz said:

Have you swapped the 2 display units to make sure both are working and that that the cable is operational or defective? If not, that will help isolating the probpem area. 

Yes I did swap, took the one that I had in the coach outside and it worked on the wire going to the one mounted outside.  I then used the new wire from my the other inverter and it worked.  The wires are clearly visible and I made a wire just like it using the rj11 ends and I cannot get it to work. 

I had sent an email to the Progressive tech support and did hear back and they sent me a diagram of the order of the wire, the new cord that I used to test is the same, the cord I made is the same but just won't work.  I even ohmed the cord I made and there is continuity from end to end.  

My guess is the ends (made in China) are slightly different not making good contact. 

10 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

OK, here’s your cheap and easy fix.  See the photo below.  Buy one of these.  Do the crossover wiring there.  Then use use 2 short phone cables.  Instant “Phone to Data Cable” adapter….

Seriously, this might be easier and less frustrating than crimping and such.  Perhaps not as “challenging” to the I KNOW I CAN FIX THIS…..EVENTUALLY type of personality….but my money and logic is that it will work.  The color hookups are in one of my previous posts…..

I do have the "I can fix this" mentality but at some point will cut my losses.  

The other issue I have is that I used these same ends to make an AC communication cable in the Van retrofit I'm doing so if they don't work on the Progressive display they may not work on the AC/Thermostat.  The wire is currently installed and will be very hard to change if I can't get the ends to work. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, jacwjames said:

Yes I did swap, took the one that I had in the coach outside and it worked on the wire going to the one mounted outside.  I then used the new wire from my the other inverter and it worked.  The wires are clearly visible and I made a wire just like it using the rj11 ends and I cannot get it to work. 

I had sent an email to the Progressive tech support and did hear back and they sent me a diagram of the order of the wire, the new cord that I used to test is the same, the cord I made is the same but just won't work.  I even ohmed the cord I made and there is continuity from end to end.  

My guess is the ends (made in China) are slightly different not making good contact. 

I do have the "I can fix this" mentality but at some point will cut my losses.  

The other issue I have is that I used these same ends to make an AC communication cable in the Van retrofit I'm doing so if they don't work on the Progressive display they may not work on the AC/Thermostat.  The wire is currently installed and will be very hard to change if I can't get the ends to work. 

Jim, I think Tom's device or a similar one will allow you to strip the wires and make connections under the screws so that a wire with regular phone RJ11 ends can be used.  No need to install new RJ11 ends or replace your present wire.

[jacwjames]

The original communication wire failed, the end pulled off.  I was having trouble with the display on the inside of the coach and when I stared wiggling the wire the end pulled off.

Lowes doesn't carry the 4 wire RJ11 ends so I ordered new ends and received, I had the installation tool.   But when I tried to make up a new end no luck.  I then made a short cable to test the display and it didn't work either but when I plug the display in outside it works.  Also tested with the other new communication cable for the transfer switch and it works. 

So after many attempts I'm thinking the RJ11 ends aren't to spec.  

I went to Lowes and bought a standard phone cable, not sure if it is wired correctly but in not I'll cut and rewire correct so the display works. 

Just hate to jerry rig something >>>> But you gotta do what you gotta do

[Dr4Film]

Sounds to me like the RF11 plugs you purchased have spec problems with them. I bought mine both at Loews and Home Depot in the past. Never had a problem other than getting the cable stripped correctly and seating the stripped ends into the plug correctly. Once that is done I give it a good couple of hefty crushing crimps.

[Guest Ray Davis]

35 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Just hate to jerry rig something >>>> But you gotta do what you gotta do

I know what you mean, but sometimes a little glitch can eat up your whole day plus all of the frustration.

[jacwjames]

Richard, starting to think the same thing.  I tried to compare a good (known to work) end and one of the ends I bought, visually they look the same and the fit into the display seems about the same  BUT somethings off.  

I went to Lowes again today, they do not stock the 4 wire RJ11 ends. 

I may try Home Depot

[cbr046]

I've had issues crimping RJ connectors into solid wire . . . or was it stranded wire?  Anyway, the little barbs weren't cutting into the wire but sliding beside it.  You can also strip with wire ends, if solid wires.  The RJ connectors should have channels to prevent shorts. 

Next cable you make plug it into a telephone and wiggle the cable while you listen.  Any intermittents will become obvious.  You could use an old phone with a battery, up to 6V, on the center two wires (tip & ring).  You'd have to make an adapter for the outer two wires (line 2).  Or just use a speaker . . . .

Why quit when you can spend days on the tiniest of problems?

- bob

[dandick66]

You can pick up one of these to test your cable and connections.  
 

iMBAPrice - RJ45 Network Cable Tester for Lan Phone RJ45/RJ11/RJ12/CAT5/CAT6/CAT7 UTP Wire Test Tool https://a.co/d/3m3ixxJ

For $10 it might be easier than trying to figure out if you have a bad cable/connector. 

[jacwjames]

So I ordered some more RJ11 ends, unfortunately they were too big for my Klein tool.  Going to send them back.

Broke down and ordered new ends from Home Depot, they fit very snuggly into the Klein tool and I was able to make a new cable and test it before crawling through the basement routing the cable.  It worked so the first batch of RJ11 ends were faulty.  So it took 3 orders to finally get some that would work. 

I still need to make a cable for the AC installation in the Van I'm outfitting.  Hopefully I can get that done tomorrow.