Need help in understanding 2003 HVAC and how to protect from freezing without Winterizing.

[Just Jim]

New to me 2003 Executive.  It was a little chilly this morning so I thought it would be a good time to check out the heat on this coach.  It has Aqua hot, Heat pump on the AC and baseboard heaters.  All three checked out although I did have to hit a reset button on one of the baseboard heaters.  So, my question is regarding freezing pipes over the winter.  I have never "winterized" my old coach as I just opened the drain and opened the facets to let the water drain out.  I am wondering if I can do that with this coach?  I would like to avoid putting chemicals in the lines as I plan to use it some during the winter.  I don't mind leaving some heat on inside the coach, but it will be parked outside so really more concerned about the basement areas.  Also, would prefer electric heat and not the diesel furnace/boiler.  Anything to avoid with leaving the baseboard heaters on with the thermostats turned down?  Is anyone familiar with if the coach has basement heating or ducts that would protect the pipes?

 Last question for now... the rear AC has a door that I can open but there is no filter in there.  I assume it should have a filter there?  The front of the coach has the decorative ceiling with two AC units.  Where would the filters be for these units?  The ceiling does not appear to have any access.  Would they be outside up on the roof? 

Thanks as always.

Jim

[96 EVO]

Unfortunately, the Aqua hot will need plumbing antifreeze in the fresh water lines.

Blowing them out won't cut it!

[Hancoman]

My 2001 Executive does have a basement heater the switch is in the same compartment as my water pump and aqua hot.  Stored to far away to take a photo 

[det944]

The two air filters are under the ceiling deco panel on our 2006Dynasty. There are 3 bolts on the left side and once removed the panel which has hinges on the right side can be pivoted down to service the filters.

[vito.a]

The early Aqua Hot units have the freshwater copper loop wrapped around the outside of the boiler tank.  They are very vulnerable in freezing conditions, especially the bottom section near the Aqua Hot exhaust exit (see left side of picture).    

The electric side of your Aqua Hot is very limited.  After a few hours it may supply enough hot water to do dishes but not enough for a shower or to heat the inside of the coach.  

If you can store the coach inside somewhere that would work.  I've tried using a small electric heater in the Aqua Hot compartment along with a 100w bulb in the tank dump section.  Last year my Aqua Hot developed a leak in the freshwater loop.  It may have been from rubbing or possibly from freezing.  

Your A/C units should have a large foam filter under each unit.  You access the filter by lowering the inside decorative cover.  Some folks remove the foam to improve airflow as it's only recirculating inside air.  

[Just Jim]

Thanks so very much all you guys!  I checked and found a knob in the water pump bay that says max 50 degrees.  So that will provide heat to the entire basement area or does it just warm the holding tanks or something else?  I'll look for some bolts on the ceiling panel.  So, not winterizing will pretty much require a fairly high level of heat to be left inside and more than likely some type of additional heat in the basement?

[det944]

[cbr046]

1 hour ago, Just Jim said:

I checked and found a knob in the water pump bay that says max 50 degrees.

Does your Exec have an electric 12V wet bay heater?  It'll look like a small cube space heater, ~200W (on a good day).  If so you'll want to check it out before the first freeze as there's an underrated thermal fuse inside the unit that likes to fail.  There's a small "snap-disc" thermostat inside the wet bay (various locations) that can be shorted to "fool" the heater into coming on.  Well, that and the System Heat switch inside the coach.  FWIW, this is a 12V heater drawing 16A (on a good day) so if you don't have (or lose) shore power you'll drain the house batteries pretty quick.  The snap-disc closes ~40F and opens ~60F. 

The Exec might use a different strategy to prevent wet bay freezing  . . . .

- bob

[Mocephus]

I don’t winterize mine because we sometimes travel during the colder months. Instead, I put a couple of space heaters inside the coach and a small one in the wet bay to supplement the bay heater. Then I monitor the inside temp and bay temps with wireless temperature sensors that I can monitor from anywhere. 

[Just Jim]

photos of the knob I found.  It just has a bare copper wire going over to the next compartment.  I can't see where it goes.  Also, found a small box with a fan that looks like it may be part of the aqua hot heating as it has copper tubing running into it.  Have not found anything that looks like an electric heater.  It should be in or near the water tanks and manabloc, correct?  I like the idea of putting temperature sensors in the coach that sync up with my phone so I can monitor the temps. 

[hex_nut]

Jim

I don't think that is a bare copper wire.  That looks like a thermostat.  What looks like a bare wire is actually a capillary tube that is sensing the temperature from where ever the other end of the tube is installed.  You can vary the temperature of on and off with that knob.

Richard 

[Ivan K]

Richard is right, I have the same setup. The thermostat will start the register fan and AH pump but of course the fluid has to be hot to be of use. As for monitoring, reporting  and remotely regulating temperature inside, a Microair thermostat does that for me and I have the electric element on its own manually adjustable thermostat that bypasses the switch as needed. Not that I needed it very often here in TX.

[Mocephus]

3 hours ago, Just Jim said:

photos of the knob I found.  It just has a bare copper wire going over to the next compartment.  I can't see where it goes.  Also, found a small box with a fan that looks like it may be part of the aqua hot heating as it has copper tubing running into it.  Have not found anything that looks like an electric heater.  It should be in or near the water tanks and manabloc, correct?  I like the idea of putting temperature sensors in the coach that sync up with my phone so I can monitor the temps. 

Below is a similar model of the temperature monitor I purchased. I put one sensor on DS and one on PS of the wet bay, and one outside the coach. I placed the base station inside the living area of the coach. I programmed alarms to be sent to my phone if any of the sensors reach 35 F. I've had the system for a year and have not yet replaced the battery in any of the sensors. Very cool system with a lot of features.

https://ambientweather.com/amws3000x3.html

.

[Pduggs]

I’ve never winterized in six years of ownership. However when we’re in Michigan till late November, I’m on 50 amp service running my AH 600D on electric to keep house and basement warm.

I have the same knob on my basement pictured above. You need to make sure that knob is turned to heating and basement resister is offering heat (touch feel), whether your AQ is on electric or diesel. 

I also use heat tape for water and sewer lines. I place a light bulb in outside refrigerator vent cover to protect my ice maker water line for the residential frig. 

[Tom Cherry]

OK….some basics…

First, it IS a good idea to winterize as in the RV antifreeze for an Aquahot.  The reason…the AquaHot box or enclosure is probably NOT in the rear wet bay area. So, no heat back where it is….it is vulnerable.

NOW…sort of giving you some information and also to clarify.

You have TWO “protections” for the WET BAY….we’ll deal with the Aquahot box later.

You have a “cargo heater”.  There is a System Heat switch on the main control panel. There is also a “light” beside it.  This is ALL in your manual….which is what we all suggest that everyone read…LOL…

When you turn on the System Heat, the switch should be RED…assuming the bulb inside the switch works.  All that means….there is POWER going to snap disk thermostat hanging or in the rear.  Think putting two quarters or maybe “half dollars” together. That is what the snap disk looks light.  They are very inaccurate….but they were DESIGNED to come on at 35 degF.  Then when it gets hot enough and is 45 degF….turn off.

NOW, you have one of the OLD, not revised by an unknowing engineer who was told to do something by a group of paranoid product liability lawyers.  The old units worked….one did, we were told or think, melt and then the lawyers panicked.  The original design or “technical support” engineer had been let go.  The company is a bit “interesting”.  They know very little about how it works and just “make them”.  The lady in charge of testing and quality control told me that.  In 2005, they added a “fuse” or safety,  poorly designed…NEVER TESTED.  They fail….and we have a fix for the newer units in the files.  So your OLD unit should work and blow out heat.  NOW…find a blue ice or a wrap around gel ice pack (like for a fractured finger). Turn on the system heat.  Wrap up or put the blue ice on the snap disk…it should come on and you will feel HOT AIR BLOWING..  the new units come on..l.but there is NO POWER to the toaster element inside….COLD air does NOT protect…

OK….next up. The “knob” if for a very precise and expensive Capillary Tube thermometer.  The “wire” is a TUBE has a special tip.  When it gets COLD….the pressure inside the “tube” and tip causes the switch in the thermostat to come one or close.  That then turns on the Wet Bay heater….you need to test it.  Same deal. Obviously the System Heat is off. Aquahot is on….running the diesel.  Let it run.  Set one of zones on the thermostat to HEAT or FURNACE….then turn the temp to 80 or so….when you feel warm air….then the system is working.  Now, locate the end or tip of the “wire or tube”.  Wrap it with the gel pack….it will turn on the Aquahot register…if that gives you warm air….good to go.

OK.…assuming you don’t want to winterize and folks don’t, then it is time to BABYSIT.  Typically, Monaco will tell you or most RV techs…high 20’s is OK.  Take all this with a grain of salt and common sense. If you are NOT in covered storage and have rigs beside you…then the rig gets  some thermal or warming  sunshine, but, in an unheated building or covered storage NOPE.  Now…I winterized all the time.  But I lost a toilet valve.  It DID have RV antifreeze…but the tiny area or volume froze..  we had a few nights near zero.  My unit was in a row or carport storage units….so no radiation, but also no whipping winds.  

The way to avoid winterizing….  Babysitting EDIT FOR CLARITY....  Only run the Aquahot in the daytime and at night....END OF EDIT.  If it is going to be  below 25 degF….you need POWER…to keep the House batterie charged.  You need diesel fuel.  Turn on the heat, all zones, inside…set to say 50 or so degF.  Set the KNOB to 40 degF.  You can turn on the System Heat…but odds are, the Aquahot will come on and the Light (meaning the heater is on) will never come on.  The heat from the Aquahot burner will protect the boiler….and the heat inside the MH will radiate down and protect your plumbing. We have members that do that all the time as they are close to storage or keep the rig at home.  

Now a comment…not a criticism.  Just draining water out does NOT protect from freezing.  The proper way is to inject 30 - 40 PSI compressed air into the hose and then open every faucet for 5 minutes….TWICE….and then leave them all OPEN for 15 - 20 minutes.  I do a “quick” compressed air blowout….then pump or winterize with RV antifreeze. That is how most RV shops do it….

[96 EVO]

I can see leaving the AH electric element or diesel burner on to protect the unit, if you have a trip planned in a couple of weeks. Any longer, it's going to get costly!

At temperatures below freezing, and trying to keep a bit of heat in the interior / wet-bay, You can expect that 1650W electric element to be gobbling up power 24/7, as in, never turning off!

[Tom Cherry]

11 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

I can see leaving the AH electric element or diesel burner on to protect the unit, if you have a trip planned in a couple of weeks. Any longer, it's going to get costly!

At temperatures below freezing, and trying to keep a bit of heat in the interior / wet-bay, You can expect that 1650W electric element to be gobbling up power 24/7, as in, never turning off!

Ben,

We have many members that choose to "BABYSIT" and ONLY turn on the AH during the day and night or periods of extreme cold.  One member locally did that and said he only used a little diesel as the burner uses less fuel than the generator. Others do it inside an unheated barn and use supplemental heat or the system heat.

"BABYSITTING" was for limited days or such....winterizing is the long term solution, but the OP did not want to do that.  If that is not feasible, then he now knows how the various systems work and interact and also the concerns of draining and then running the risk of freezing in an area that is NOT heated.  Again, if he is LOCAL he can put in a Thermostat block (Amazon sells them for less than $25) and can plug in a trouble light or such in the Aquahot area and it will come on, assuming he has power.

Without knowing his entire situation, the generic info was posted.

If that was NOT clear...then I apologize....and I have EDITED the post....

 

 

[terboggs]

18 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

I can see leaving the AH electric element or diesel burner on to protect the unit, if you have a trip planned in a couple of weeks. Any longer, it's going to get costly!

At temperatures below freezing, and trying to keep a bit of heat in the interior / wet-bay, You can expect that 1650W electric element to be gobbling up power 24/7, as in, never turning off!

how do we protect against the batter drain on something like that

18 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

I can see leaving the AH electric element or diesel burner on to protect the unit, if you have a trip planned in a couple of weeks. Any longer, it's going to get costly!

At temperatures below freezing, and trying to keep a bit of heat in the interior / wet-bay, You can expect that 1650W electric element to be gobbling up power 24/7, as in, never turning off!

 

20 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

OK….some basics…

First, it IS a good idea to winterize as in the RV antifreeze for an Aquahot.  The reason…the AquaHot box or enclosure is probably NOT in the rear wet bay area. So, no heat back where it is….it is vulnerable.

NOW…sort of giving you some information and also to clarify.

You have TWO “protections” for the WET BAY….we’ll deal with the Aquahot box later.

You have a “cargo heater”.  There is a System Heat switch on the main control panel. There is also a “light” beside it.  This is ALL in your manual….which is what we all suggest that everyone read…LOL…

When you turn on the System Heat, the switch should be RED…assuming the bulb inside the switch works.  All that means….there is POWER going to snap disk thermostat hanging or in the rear.  Think putting two quarters or maybe “half dollars” together. That is what the snap disk looks light.  They are very inaccurate….but they were DESIGNED to come on at 35 degF.  Then when it gets hot enough and is 45 degF….turn off.

NOW, you have one of the OLD, not revised by an unknowing engineer who was told to do something by a group of paranoid product liability lawyers.  The old units worked….one did, we were told or think, melt and then the lawyers panicked.  The original design or “technical support” engineer had been let go.  The company is a bit “interesting”.  They know very little about how it works and just “make them”.  The lady in charge of testing and quality control told me that.  In 2005, they added a “fuse” or safety,  poorly designed…NEVER TESTED.  They fail….and we have a fix for the newer units in the files.  So your OLD unit should work and blow out heat.  NOW…find a blue ice or a wrap around gel ice pack (like for a fractured finger). Turn on the system heat.  Wrap up or put the blue ice on the snap disk…it should come on and you will feel HOT AIR BLOWING..  the new units come on..l.but there is NO POWER to the toaster element inside….COLD air does NOT protect…

OK….next up. The “knob” if for a very precise and expensive Capillary Tube thermometer.  The “wire” is a TUBE has a special tip.  When it gets COLD….the pressure inside the “tube” and tip causes the switch in the thermostat to come one or close.  That then turns on the Wet Bay heater….you need to test it.  Same deal. Obviously the System Heat is off. Aquahot is on….running the diesel.  Let it run.  Set one of zones on the thermostat to HEAT or FURNACE….then turn the temp to 80 or so….when you feel warm air….then the system is working.  Now, locate the end or tip of the “wire or tube”.  Wrap it with the gel pack….it will turn on the Aquahot register…if that gives you warm air….good to go.

OK.…assuming you don’t want to winterize and folks don’t, then it is time to BABYSIT.  Typically, Monaco will tell you or most RV techs…high 20’s is OK.  Take all this with a grain of salt and common sense. If you are NOT in covered storage and have rigs beside you…then the rig gets  some thermal or warming  sunshine, but, in an unheated building or covered storage NOPE.  Now…I winterized all the time.  But I lost a toilet valve.  It DID have RV antifreeze…but the tiny area or volume froze..  we had a few nights near zero.  My unit was in a row or carport storage units….so no radiation, but also no whipping winds.  

The way to avoid winterizing….  Babysitting EDIT FOR CLARITY....  Only run the Aquahot in the daytime and at night....END OF EDIT.  If it is going to be  below 25 degF….you need POWER…to keep the House batterie charged.  You need diesel fuel.  Turn on the heat, all zones, inside…set to say 50 or so degF.  Set the KNOB to 40 degF.  You can turn on the System Heat…but odds are, the Aquahot will come on and the Light (meaning the heater is on) will never come on.  The heat from the Aquahot burner will protect the boiler….and the heat inside the MH will radiate down and protect your plumbing. We have members that do that all the time as they are close to storage or keep the rig at home.  

Now a comment…not a criticism.  Just draining water out does NOT protect from freezing.  The proper way is to inject 30 - 40 PSI compressed air into the hose and then open every faucet for 5 minutes….TWICE….and then leave them all OPEN for 15 - 20 minutes.  I do a “quick” compressed air blowout….then pump or winterize with RV antifreeze. That is how most RV shops do it….

If it is going to be  below 25 degF….you need POWER…to keep the House batterie charged-- what do you recommend to keep it charged?

21 hours ago, Pduggs said:

I’ve never winterized in six years of ownership. However when we’re in Michigan till late November, I’m on 50 amp service running my AH 600D on electric to keep house and basement warm.

I have the same knob on my basement pictured above. You need to make sure that knob is turned to heating and basement resister is offering heat (touch feel), whether your AQ is on electric or diesel. 

I also use heat tape for water and sewer lines. I place a light bulb in outside refrigerator vent cover to protect my ice maker water line for the residential frig. 

heat tape for water and sewer lines-- WHAT KIND ?

 

[Pduggs]

This is what I use. 
 

[Tom Cherry]

5 hours ago, terboggs said:

how do we protect against the batter drain on something like that

 

If it is going to be  below 25 degF….you need POWER…to keep the House batterie charged-- what do you recommend to keep it charged?

heat tape for water and sewer lines-- WHAT KIND ?

 

Back to basics.  Your MH has to be at a location where you have power….otherwise you have to use the AGS on your generator.  Reread my explanation.

You can use the Diesel gas burner and that will provide “flame” heat for the Aquahot.  You would NOT use the System Heat as it chews up your house battery capacity.  So, leave on the Aquahot, set to say 45 degF or so.  The pumps on the Aquahot and the fans are 12VDC.  Setup your Generator with the AGS.  I’d use 11.9 VDC as the ON setpoint.  Set the runtime to 4 hours….Now, the Generator will come on when your battery bank gets low.  As long as you have 12 VDC power, the interior of the MH will be heated.  Set the remote ‘knob” or the thermostat in the wet bay to 40 degF.  So, when it gets cold, one of the systems, Interior or Wet Bay will call for heat.  When there is a heat demand, then the Aquahot burner will ignite….and run until the temperature is above either set point.  The Generator probably burn maybe 0.75 GPM when on.  You probably will end up with it coming on, say ONCE a day.  The Aquahot burns less….maybe say 0.50 GPM.  So, it of runs 8 hours per night….that is  4 gallons.  Add in the 3 gallons for the Geneator….you sill use probably 7 gallons per 24 hour cycle…

You will need to go out and turn on the AGS and the Aquahot and the interior heat in the morning of the day(s) it gets below 25.

Otherwise, invest in a 50 Amp service at home and bring home each time you need to protect it

Trying to use heat tape protects the incoming lines.  Not the Aquahot.  The 1650 AC heater in the Aquahot would have to be TOTALLY rewired.  It does NOT run off the inverter.  There is no “plug” to relocate.  There would have to be major electrical modifications to get it to run off the inverter and yiur generator would be runn8ng most of the t8me,  NOW…if you leave the Generator on….and many do….then run it when you need heat….it will power the Aquahot, but if the Aquahot needs more capacity (the burner is rated at 6 or 7 times…memory….than the electric).

Whatever you do, , you need to unplug all the TV’s and electronics…..not turn them off….in standby, they still use a small amount.  Your refrigerator nees to be unplugged. These will kill a bank of batteries quickly.

Read your manual.  Understand how each system works….that was explained previously.  

[96 EVO]

Just to confirm, is this thread about 'storing' the coach, or using it in freezing weather?

I thought it was the former, but the longer it goes, I'm not sure anymore 🤔!

[Just Jim]

Ben, I think the wheels have about come off this thread.  I've gotten most of the info I was originally seeking.  In my particular case, it is a little of both.  I park my RV in my driveway at home and have 50 amp service for it.  However, no building for it to be enclosed in... hopefully soon to have that.  So, again, for me it is storage and usage during the winter months.... and therefore not wanting to "winterize" it with solution in the water pipes.  The winters here are not brutal... we have several nights when it will get below 32, but during the day the temps may be 45 or 50... so not really much chance of a hard freeze.  So, my questions were mainly for the periods when it gets down to 10 at night and maybe up to 32 for a high.  I'm planning on getting the temp sensors to put inside the basement and the coach as well that I can check on my phone.  I'll also watch the weather closely and turn on more heat either electric or diesel as is needed.  I have run at least one of the AC units all summer to keep the interior from getting above 80 so I don't think keeping the heat on is going to bankrupt me.  I do appreciate all the help on this... hopefully it has been beneficial to others as well.

Jim

[Tom Cherry]

23 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Ben, I think the wheels have about come off this thread.  I've gotten most of the info I was originally seeking.  In my particular case, it is a little of both.  I park my RV in my driveway at home and have 50 amp service for it.  However, no building for it to be enclosed in... hopefully soon to have that.  So, again, for me it is storage and usage during the winter months.... and therefore not wanting to "winterize" it with solution in the water pipes.  The winters here are not brutal... we have several nights when it will get below 32, but during the day the temps may be 45 or 50... so not really much chance of a hard freeze.  So, my questions were mainly for the periods when it gets down to 10 at night and maybe up to 32 for a high.  I'm planning on getting the temp sensors to put inside the basement and the coach as well that I can check on my phone.  I'll also watch the weather closely and turn on more heat either electric or diesel as is needed.  I have run at least one of the AC units all summer to keep the interior from getting above 80 so I don't think keeping the heat on is going to bankrupt me.  I do appreciate all the help on this... hopefully it has been beneficial to others as well.

Jim

Yes….a bit confusing, but now you’ve provided more information.  Your Aquahot has a lotbof capacity.  I often do what you want to do.  So…assumptions.

Thermal heating works. Leave the shades up.  Let the sun, even in winter, warm the interior.  I’d only go to my “maybe I need protection” plan if the lows were below 25.  YES….MONITOR.

BELOW 25 or so, I’d turn on the furnace or Aquahot and set all zones to maybe 35 to 40 degF.  That thermal interior heat will soak into the wet bay.  I’d experiment withe my sensors and set the “bay knob” to say 35 degF.  Then monitor.  Never mess with the system heat….unless you thoroughly test it.  I do not have as much confidence in it and the thermostat is a cheap one.  Maybe $15 verses the Capillary tube being a precision unit in the $125 or up.

The above should be good for the mid teens and up.  When it gets really cold or approaching single digits, the Aquahot will keep that bay warm.  I have used a 60 - 100 watt trouble light with a plug in 35 - 45 thermostat/outlet for the wet bay.  Bump up the interior to say 40 - 45….monitor and then develop your own set points.

Your Aquahot may (probably) has the lower on Heat unit.  So, you can leave the electric ON….when it can’t keep up, the diesel kicks in.  Read up on it.

[terboggs]

17 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Back to basics.  Your MH has to be at a location where you have power….otherwise you have to use the AGS on your generator.  Reread my explanation.

You can use the Diesel gas burner and that will provide “flame” heat for the Aquahot.  You would NOT use the System Heat as it chews up your house battery capacity.  So, leave on the Aquahot, set to say 45 degF or so.  The pumps on the Aquahot and the fans are 12VDC.  Setup your Generator with the AGS.  I’d use 11.9 VDC as the ON setpoint.  Set the runtime to 4 hours….Now, the Generator will come on when your battery bank gets low.  As long as you have 12 VDC power, the interior of the MH will be heated.  Set the remote ‘knob” or the thermostat in the wet bay to 40 degF.  So, when it gets cold, one of the systems, Interior or Wet Bay will call for heat.  When there is a heat demand, then the Aquahot burner will ignite….and run until the temperature is above either set point.  The Generator probably burn maybe 0.75 GPM when on.  You probably will end up with it coming on, say ONCE a day.  The Aquahot burns less….maybe say 0.50 GPM.  So, it of runs 8 hours per night….that is  4 gallons.  Add in the 3 gallons for the Geneator….you sill use probably 7 gallons per 24 hour cycle…

You will need to go out and turn on the AGS and the Aquahot and the interior heat in the morning of the day(s) it gets below 25.

Otherwise, invest in a 50 Amp service at home and bring home each time you need to protect it

Trying to use heat tape protects the incoming lines.  Not the Aquahot.  The 1650 AC heater in the Aquahot would have to be TOTALLY rewired.  It does NOT run off the inverter.  There is no “plug” to relocate.  There would have to be major electrical modifications to get it to run off the inverter and yiur generator would be runn8ng most of the t8me,  NOW…if you leave the Generator on….and many do….then run it when you need heat….it will power the Aquahot, but if the Aquahot needs more capacity (the burner is rated at 6 or 7 times…memory….than the electric).

Whatever you do, , you need to unplug all the TV’s and electronics…..not turn them off….in standby, they still use a small amount.  Your refrigerator nees to be unplugged. These will kill a bank of batteries quickly.

Read your manual.  Understand how each system works….that was explained previously.  

i am sorry  but what is an AGS

[96 EVO]

Automatic Generator Start