COMBINED TOPICS - WATER HEATER PEX FITTING LEAK & POTENTIAL GFCI NOT RESETTING - 2008 Knight 40DFT

[Steve P]

MODERATOR NOTE

TWO TOPICS HAVE BEEN COMBINES AS THE RECENT FIND OF THE WATER HEATER FITTING LEAK MAY BE IMPACTING THE FUNCTION AND RELIABILITY OF THE GFCI.  ORDINARILY TWO TOPICS BUT THE BOUNCE BACK AND FORTH AND PICTURES MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW.

END OF EDIT

I was following a recent GFCI thread last week for educational purposes.  Tonight's events make it more of an urgent concern.  Tonight, the GFCI circuit in the rear bath tripped.  It will hold a reset for perhaps fifteen seconds, and then trip again.  

To start, it would seem that 8 outlets, including the Norcold fridge, are affected... the GFCI in the rear full bath, one on the BR wall that divides it from the bath, the fridge outlet, the outlet in the half bath, a kitchen outlet on the bottom of a cabinet, one in front on the rightside of the center console, and the multi above the driver for TV,  receiver/amp, TV switcher, and antenna preamp, and one in the passenger bay that could host a TV.  And the Inverter breaker apparently controls the feed to the line side of the GFCI (correct?)...  I also have a 2nd series of outlets that are on the kitchen GFCI that are working fine. 

My plan is to turn off the Inverter breaker and remove all the outlet covers to check wiring is secure and if screwed in, confirm tightness.  Should I check with a VOM for correct voltage, or high resistance or anything?  If none of the previous checkups restore GFCI outlet operation to normal, I will then replace the GFCI after locating the "approved list" somewhere on this site.  

If anyone has suggestions for other testing, I would appreciate your input. 

And if anyone has a wiring diagram specific to my coach and model (below),  please, please share.  I would really like to take them to Fedex/Office and get them printed. 

P. S.  My Norcold fridge is running on propane (since it is on one of the outlets in the chain), so I will be tackling this Tuesday,  and working until I have it resolved. 

Thanks in advance, 

Steve P

[nvrtoofast]

Sound like you're on the right track. I have had the GFCI outlet go bad before. Checking all connections is a good place to start. Good Luck.

[96 EVO]

Since you have your fridge running on propane, unplug it and the ice maker (if you have one), and see if the GFCI will reset.

[Steve P]

37 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Since you have your fridge running on propane, unplug it and the ice maker (if you have one), and see if the GFCI will reset.

Will do, Thanks! 

[waterskier_1]

Since you have a propane refrigerator, only the ice maker should be powered off the inverter, and the GFCI breaker.  The "heater elements" of the refrigerator should be feed by a separate breaker on the main power panel.  The rationale is that when you lose shore (or generator) power the refrigerator will know this and automatically switch to propane (unless it was manually set to propane).  The GFCI outlet only should power the ice maker, which allows you to harvest ice when not shore power is available.  

I would start by unplugging everything that is on the GFCI loop.  Check to see if it still trips.  If it does, and you are confident everything is unplugged, then I'd replace the GFCI breaker.  If it doesn't trip, I'd start plugging those items I unplugged, one at a time, until I found the culprit.

  -Rick N. 

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, Steve P said:

I was following a recent GFCI thread last week for educational purposes.  Tonight's events make it more of an urgent concern.  Tonight, the GFCI circuit in the rear bath tripped.  It will hold a reset for perhaps fifteen seconds, and then trip again.  

To start, it would seem that 8 outlets, including the Norcold fridge, are affected... the GFCI in the rear full bath, one on the BR wall that divides it from the bath, the fridge outlet, the outlet in the half bath, a kitchen outlet on the bottom of a cabinet, one in front on the rightside of the center console, and the multi above the driver for TV,  receiver/amp, TV switcher, and antenna preamp, and one in the passenger bay that could host a TV.  And the Inverter breaker apparently controls the feed to the line side of the GFCI (correct?)...  I also have a 2nd series of outlets that are on the kitchen GFCI that are working fine. 

My plan is to turn off the Inverter breaker and remove all the outlet covers to check wiring is secure and if screwed in, confirm tightness.  Should I check with a VOM for correct voltage, or high resistance or anything?  If none of the previous checkups restore GFCI outlet operation to normal, I will then replace the GFCI after locating the "approved list" somewhere on this site.  

If anyone has suggestions for other testing, I would appreciate your input. 

And if anyone has a wiring diagram specific to my coach and model (below),  please, please share.  I would really like to take them to Fedex/Office and get them printed. 

P. S.  My Norcold fridge is running on propane (since it is on one of the outlets in the chain), so I will be tackling this Tuesday,  and working until I have it resolved. 

Thanks in advance, 

Steve P

Some GOOD tips.  Here are the drawings for the 2009 Knight.  ODDS ARE...yours will be close as Monaco did a lot of upgrades in 2008.  I also printed out of the entire file, the 120 Electrical Layout.  LOOK AT IT.  Here is the way I would do it...similar to others, but maybe a bit easier and more logical and it will home in on things...

FIRST, I assume that you have a VOM.  I also assume that you are OK with installing a new receptacle or replacing a GFCI.  SO....here goes.

• Unplug, as suggested, the front Entertainment items.  That includes the "DASH" outlet.  I do NOT think that is the issue, but simple to do...if you are using a power strip, unplug it.  NOTHING in those 4 outlets.
• Find the PASS VAN outlet, whatever it is.  
• UNPLUG THE ICEMAKER.  ODDS ARE....this is it.  The Heater Coils in the icemaker mold, plus the coils inside for defrosting can have a minute (NON LETHAL) leak and that leak wreaks havoc with GFCI's.  This is the FIRST THING that usually we check...  SO DO THAT.  
• NO JOY....then FIND the three outlets off 1A JNC Box and the two off 2(B) JNC Box....unplug all them.  IF THAT DOESN'T WORK...
• Purchase or order a NEW GFCI.  Your's is way past due for replacement.  My 2009 died in 2013.  ONLY purchase a 20 AMP GFCI make by Eaton Wiring Devices, Leviton or Hubbell.  These are the ONLY ones recommended for use with the Inverter.  BE ALERT.  The wiring on the back of the GFCI may (HAS?) Changed.  Read the back (molded in) labels.  You have TWO LOAD circuits and ONE LINE.  The LINE is the incoming power.  The LOAD is the two circuits.  Rewire the NEW GFCI correctly. DO NOT use an offbrand or a Lowes' Utilitacky one....you will be sorry.
• IF that doesn't fix it...then there is an outlet with a short in it or there is a chafed wire.  It gets TRICKY past this.  BUT, you can chase it down...
• You will have to ISOLATE the LOADS.  Simple...you TEMPORARILY (GFCI TRIPPED AND OFF) connect one of the LOAD CABLES to the LINE.  THEN see what works.  That will be the either the FRONT TV HEC or the Icemaker OUTLET.  THEN leave off that LOAD.  SAME ISSUE...then pull the other LOAD OFF.
• FINALLY, you locate 1A JNC Box and disconnect the incoming power...and then go from there.

UNFORTUNATELY, Monaco's stupidity prevails.  MANY of us have the ICEMAKER CIRCUIT on the TV's...so we just move that LOAD Cable to LINE.  That then removes the GFCI from the PROTECTED circuit and all is well.  Literally have coached or helped 50 or so members make that change.

BUT, you MIGHT just have an OLD GFCI....so replacing will fix it.  BUT, if the Norcold's ICEMAKER is bad...then you have to live without an icemaker or you run a 16 gauge extension cord, somehow from say the Inverter OUTPUT to 2A JNC Box....and that puts it on the Microwave.  The Microwave will not pull enough juice to be an issue with the small wattage of the ICEMAKER.

If Monaco had put the ICEMAKER cable in the LOAD to the FRONT TV...you could have moved that cable from LOAD to LINE and all would have been great.

That's it.  A little work, but a LOT easier than scratching your head and doing backwards flips.

 

903403772_2009KnightWiringDiagrams-rev1.pdf 2009 KNIGHT ELECTRICAL - 120 VAC.pdf

[Steve P]

During outlet inspection and unplugging, I discovered that the water heater bypass valve connection is leaking (about a drop every 5 seconds).   The Pex connector looks cracked (see pic).  The optional outlet box for the outside television backs up directly in/next to the water heater space.  There is a plastic "wall" between the water heater and the  outlet (see pic).  I am wondering if perhaps the moisture content in that cubic foot or so of space could causing that outlet, which is a GFCI  protected outlet on the same circuit, to trip the GFCI.  

Edited December 12, 2023 by Steve P
More info and pics

[jacwjames]

10 minutes ago, Steve P said:

During outlet inspection and unplugging, I discovered that the water heater bypass valve connection is leaking (about a drop every 5 seconds).  The optional outlet box for the outside television backs up directly in/next to the water heater space. I am wondering if perhaps the moisture content in that cubic foot or so of space could causing that outlet, which is a GFCI  protected outlet on the same circuit, to trip the GFCI.  

It might

But if the GFCI is on a circuit that already has a GFCI installed upstream the one the water heater is plugged into shouldn't be there, the upstream GFCI protects the entire circuit.  You might try removing it and replacing with a standard outlet.

[Steve P]

9 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

It might

But if the GFCI is on a circuit that already has a GFCI installed upstream the one the water heater is plugged into shouldn't be there, the upstream GFCI protects the entire circuit.  You might try removing it and replacing with a standard outlet.

The water heater is not on the GFCI circuit. It is the TV outlet inside the passenger rear bay that backs up to the water heater area that is protected by the GFCI in the rear bath that is tripping.

[Tom Cherry]

8 minutes ago, Steve P said:

The water heater is not on the GFCI circuit. It is the TV outlet inside the passenger rear bay that backs up to the water heater area that is protected by the GFCI in the rear bath that is tripping.

BACK TO BASICS...and also some personal experience....

IF you got water into an outlet or even some moisture....then that will trip a GFCI in a heartbeat.  I once barely sprayed the underside of the Ref Vent cover and got WATER in the outlet.  The only solutiion is to spray the INSIDE of the "OULTET ON THE GFCI CIRCUIT" with WD40 and then dry it out.  You CAN use compressed air, but if you have condensation in the compressor, it might make it work. WD40 was developed by NASA (Water DISPLACEMENT) and the 40th formula is what we have.

Spray the outlet.  Take a Portable Hair dryer and then heat it up.  Don' melt it .  BUT, I can tell you that eventually, you just MIGHT have to pull that crappy outlet and put in a REAL, HOUSEHOLD outlet with screw terminals.  

In addition, the GFCI is OLD....and it is as cantankerous as my bride of 58 years says I am getting....LOL. 

Depending on how much water or whether it splashed or what.  TREAT THE OUTLET AS DAMAGED...SPRAY IT..  HEAT IT.  TEST...but replace the GFCI eventually and get a NEW, REAL outlet there.  Otherwise...this gremlin will haunt you forever.

BTW....the newer GFCI might be more kind to the Norcold icemaker....

SO   Those would be what I would do...

[96 EVO]

5 hours ago, Steve P said:

The water heater is not on the GFCI circuit. It is the TV outlet inside the passenger rear bay that backs up to the water heater area that is protected by the GFCI in the rear bath that is tripping.

My only issues to date with my GFCI tripping was when my ice maker water line split and was spraying directly at the outlet behind the fridge.

Blew it out well with compressed air, and all well ! (Other than all the water under the fridge 😡)

[Steve P]

MODERATPR NOTE

THIS POST WAS A SEPARATE TOPIC.  THE LEAK WAS DISCOVERED WHILE TROUBLE SHOOTING THE MALFUNCTIONING GFCI. THESE TWO TOPICS ARE COMBINED IN ONE FOR CLARITY AND TO KEEP FROM BOUNCING BACK AND FORTH.  THIS IS AN EXCEPTION TO THE NORMAL RULES FOR A SINGLE TOPIC FOR EACH PROBLEM

END OF MODERATOR NOTE

This is what the back of my water heater piping looks like but I do NOT have an access hatch to the back.  My WH is at basement level and it seems the only access is a 5x8 hatch at the left side of this picture but 2ft inside one of my basement doors.  And there is only 4-6 inches clearance behind the WH...  so here's my question:  The red pex pipe at the top left has a cracked screw-on connector on the right end (in gray in the pic).  This will mean unclamping the pipe on the left end, unscrewing the assembly, and making a replacement.  However,  with too little room to get two hands in behind the bypass valve and a very cramped area for one-handed maneuvering of a pex uncrimp/recrimp tool.  So I think I'm going to have to pull the entire WH.  I'm crushing brain cells trying to think of a way to not have to do it, and at the same time what the steps would be to remove the WH entirely (turn off gas valve, disconnect gas line, unplug 120vAC plug, check length or figure out how to unplug 12v wiring, disconnect cold in and hot out lines... and what else!!??).

Thoughts?  Similar experience?  Creative solutions? 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Tom Cherry
EDITED AFTER COMBINING WITH ORIGINAL TOPIC - MALFUNCTION GFCI

[DavidL]

Not perfectly following...but from that picture...looks like you have good access...what am I missing?

[Martinvz]

If you are going to replace the pex, you could consider cutting the crimps with a Dremel  rotary tool. Not elegant but a possibility. 

[Steve P]

1 hour ago, DavidL said:

Not perfectly following...but from that picture...looks like you have good access...what am I missing?

I borrowed the pic because the PEX and connections are like mine.  I have no access that even resembles what is suggested by the pic.  I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.  My WH is in the basement level with a small 5x8 inch door thru the basement wall to the back left of the WH.

1 hour ago, Martinvz said:

If you are going to replace the pex, you could consider cutting the crimps with a Dremel  rotary tool. Not elegant but a possibility. 

@Martinvz Excellent suggestion!   And I have the recargeable one with me... that's what I'll do.  After using soap solution to confirm no gas leaks.  😉  I ought to be able to crimp a new one in place with some tape to hold the band in place... fingers crossed! 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Steve P

[Steve P]

I need to repair the water heater line that is leaking first, and then when it's not making the WH compartment damp, I'll continue fixing the GFCI.  But I will probably replace the GFCI as a first step since it's so old one night when I'm not working outside on the WH.

I will post progress here soon.

[Rikadoo]

I understand your problem my bypass valve decided to start leaking, due to the lack of room AND having to cut the red pex to remove the valve i had to remove the entire unit. Turn off your gas bleed the pressure off by turning on the stove till it goes out, unplug the electric an the water line going in an out. Seperate the caulking outside, remove the screws, then start working it out. I learned a lesson about removing the pex, when cutting off the ring, then be carefull not to nick the barbs on the fitting. Also nowhere were there tools to rent or borrow to replace the pex ring, however i did find the tool for sale at Lowes, AND next to it was the ring remover🤦‍♂️ that oddly enough works awsome. If i were to make a suggestion, while in there replace that valve at the same time,( the valve is a bit pricey, found mine in a old rv repair shop, no price tag still in a sealed bag, they gave up looking for a price sold it to me for $30.00, damm near broke sweat running to the car😳😂) put it all back in, recaulk, water lines, electric an move on. I found the one pex fitting at a local plumbing supply, oh an let me say i ended up doing this 2 days before a planned trip

[jacwjames]

You might consider buying a flexible wire braided hose with the correct ends and attaching this to the bypass valve and then the pex to it with a swivel type connectors.  Might be able to get it out to where you can work on it better using the hose. 

 

My toilet was almost impossible to connect to the water supply, bought a piece of hose with the correct ends long enough to put a loop in it.  Now I can connect to the water supply with the toilet sitting away from the wall then put into place.  Much easier. 

[Steve P]

@Rikadoo and others - we are currently camped in Melbourne FL, so the objective is to have all water and electric except the WH working while doing the repair.  Anything gas we can do without during the repair.

Problem: I can't see a way to cutoff the input cold water supply to the WH.  Is there a way?  Without it, the only choice seems to be to cutoff water to the entire coach and drain the lines, and drain the WH.  

[jacwjames]

You could go buy on/off valve and install in on the water heater cold water supply, put it in a convenient place where it would be easy to get to.

[Steve P]

Hooray, the GFCI replacement with a Leviton from HD fixed the problem and all outlets are working again.  The water leak / cracked threaded PEX connector is having to wait until after a campsite change and a doctor visit for my wife.  Too much stress to deal with already for both of us.  I will fix it Saturday, weather permitting. 

Thanks for all the help and advice!   You guys are the best!!

Steve P

[tmw188]

23 hours ago, DavidL said:

Not perfectly following...but from that picture...looks like you have good access...what am I missing?

I was kinda wondering the same thing? 

[Steve P]

1 hour ago, tmw188 said:

I was kinda wondering the same thing? 

Read my previous reply please

[tmw188]

👍Ok Steve good luck. These things aren’t always easy to work on. 

[BigJereL]

Following this thread. I live across the river from where you are staying now and had similar GFCI issues in the past. Monaco really enjoyed making us scratch our heads when these odd problems arise. I am sure I will have to pull my water heater out someday and am looking forward to your posts on those repairs.