PACBRAKE OR VGT?

[Idoc57]

OK guys, here's my dilemma. The manual for my 2006 Cayman 37PBD with a 5.9 ISB, clearly states that my coach has a PACBRAKE with a couple of pretty pictures of the unit and all the info on how to maintain (lubricate) it.  I have read on another forum that the 2006 ISB did not come with a PB because they were all outfitted with a Variable Geometry Turbo which handles the exhaust braking task just as well, and as a bonus, it does not need periodic lubrication  as the PB does.  I spoke with a man on the phone yesterday who is very well versed in all things Monaco.  He told me in no uncertain terms that my MH would not have a VGT, but rather a PB.  He told me that it would be located on the topside of the engine, exhaust side next to the valve cover.  I went over this AM to look at it and here is what I found.  (see pics)

I am pretty sure that if it had a PB, it would be located between the exhaust side of the turbo and the muffler (probably right next to the turbo).  If it is there, I am not seeing it.  So, my question to you guys, who are a lot more knowledgeable than I am, is am I missing it?  And if it is not there, is it a given that my engine has a VGT?

Thank you for taking your time and sharing your knowledge to help me out!

Carey 

[Dr4Film]

Here is what a PacBrake looks like. I don't see anything like that in your photos. Someone with a VGT would have to chime in on that since I have never owned one.

[Tom Cherry]

30 minutes ago, Idoc57 said:

OK guys, here's my dilemma. The manual for my 2006 Cayman 37PBD with a 5.9 ISB, clearly states that my coach has a PACBRAKE with a couple of pretty pictures of the unit and all the info on how to maintain (lubricate) it.  I have read on another forum that the 2006 ISB did not come with a PB because they were all outfitted with a Variable Geometry Turbo which handles the exhaust braking task just as well, and as a bonus, it does not need periodic lubrication  as the PB does.  I spoke with a man on the phone yesterday who is very well versed in all things Monaco.  He told me in no uncertain terms that my MH would not have a VGT, but rather a PB.  He told me that it would be located on the topside of the engine, exhaust side next to the valve cover.  I went over this AM to look at it and here is what I found.  (see pics)

I am pretty sure that if it had a PB, it would be located between the exhaust side of the turbo and the muffler (probably right next to the turbo).  If it is there, I am not seeing it.  So, my question to you guys, who are a lot more knowledgeable than I am, is am I missing it?  And if it is not there, is it a given that my engine has a VGT?

Thank you for taking your time and sharing your knowledge to help me out!

Carey 

The simple solution would be to call Cummins.  You need your engine SN.  That should be on the factory build sheet.  REV is also required to have your VIN on file and also the Engine SN.

NEVER TRUST A MONACO Manual.  Whatever is around that looks close or might work, but has been hidden in a corner would be used.  The VGT has been around since 1998.  
 

if you Google Cummins VGT Images, you will get many pictures of the actuator.  Here is a video on removing it.  Note where the “turbo” housing is.  I can’t tell from your pictures.

Good Luck

[BradHend]

I literally just today was going to lubricate my PacBrake as per the manual and ran into the same problem.   Where is it? What do I have if I don’t have it? Too funny. I thought I was going crazy today.  My setup is exactly the same as yours. 

[Idoc57]

The 3rd picture from the top shows the area between the input side of the turbo (from the CAC) and the exhaust gas driven side.  It doesn't look anything like the section that housed the actuator in the video above.  I definitely don't see anything that looks like the PB in Richard's post above, and I was under the MH yesterday looking all over that side of the engine from underneath and didn't see anything resembling that either.  So, the $64,000 question is, "If I don't have a PB and this turns out not to be a VGT, why do I have an EXHAUST BRAKE switch on the left side console that definitely slows the MH down when activated and I take my foot off of the accelerator pedal?"  

[Guest Dive Dive]

I’m closely watching this topic since I have a 07 Cayman and can’t find mine either.  

[MyronTruex]

Go to Cummins quckserve and register your engine serial number. I highly suspect you can find out what it has on it then.

Even in my 2008 HR Endeavor manual it says to lubricate the critter. After ordering the special lube I could not find the hidden device. Searching and searching and finally talked to someone about the VRT. Any Cummins dealer should be able to advise you as well. 

Cheers

Variable Geometry Turbine.pdf

Edited July 9, 2022 by myrontruex

[Frank McElroy]

On 7/9/2022 at 5:11 PM, Tom Cherry said:

The simple solution would be to call Cummins.  You need your engine SN.  That should be on the factory build sheet.  REV is also required to have your VIN on file and also the Engine SN.

NEVER TRUST A MONACO Manual.  Whatever is around that looks close or might work, but has been hidden in a corner would be used.  The VGT has been around since 1998.  
 

if you Google Cummins VGT Images, you will get many pictures of the actuator.  Here is a video on removing it.  Note where the “turbo” housing is.  I can’t tell from your pictures.

Good Luck

A very important part not talked in this video about CAN GET FOLKS IN A LOT OF TROUBLE.

Shown in the video is an electronic turbo actuator that is controlled by and must be calibrated to the turbo and engine ECM. 

ANY time that actuator is removed, it MUST be recalibrated to align the actuator gear and turbo arm positions.  To do that requires using the Cummins Insite software program under turbo actuator calibration. 

A service tech really needs to know what they are doing when they remove, reinstall and calibrate an electronic turbo actuator.  That's why Cummins stopped selling the turbo and actuator separately.  From Cumming they are only available as a complete assembly.  You can find them in the after market as separate units.

[BradHend]

We utilize the VGT for exhaust braking. Done quite a bit of research and learning and stress these past few days.  As weird as this is, my Cayman is going in for service as the turbo actuator is giving a fault code.  Found by chance when I decided to plug in a cheap reader to see if anything was showing that would indicate boost leak, injector issue etc. as I have noticed black smoke on acceleration from stop since I got steer tires put on as well as an “air through a hose” kinda sound while driving alongside bridges and buildings and whatnot.   Coming from the back end.   Sounds like exhaust is surging at low idle as well.
Took a peek underneath just now.  There has been oil coming out of the inlet side of the plastic boot on the turbo, as well as oil present on the oil return line connection. No drips, but oil is there.  Not looking forward to the prognosis. 

Hope it’s just the actuator.  Suppose to be going cross country in 2 weeks. 

[Idoc57]

Brad, have you determined for sure that your turbo is a VGT?  I'm not seeing anything that looks like an actuator on mine. 

[Bill R]

This post got me thinking about my own coach and what braking system it is equipped with.

 

Drivers switch panel has a placard that says PAC Brake (see pic below)

Build Sheet has PAC Brake listed but no Model or Serial Numbers referenced.

The MSRP of the Coach says Jacobs Engine Brake (compression brake).

Manual talks about an Engine Brake - Lo Setting 3 Cylinders, Hi Setting 6 Cylinders

Looking at the exhaust piping from the Turbo Charger to the Muffler - Nothing

Talking with CumminsCare and giving my engine serial number, they confirm I have a compression (engine) brake system as the manual describes.

 

So I have a engine/compression/Jake brake system.  I will be removing the PAC Brake placard!!

 

 

[Dr4Film]

Bill, don't be too hasty as PacBrake is the name of the company which also manufactures engine brakes & exhaust brakes.

Engine Brakes | Pacbrake

[Tom Cherry]

8 hours ago, Bill R said:

This post got me thinking about my own coach and what braking system it is equipped with.

 

Drivers switch panel has a placard that says PAC Brake (see pic below)

Build Sheet has PAC Brake listed but no Model or Serial Numbers referenced.

The MSRP of the Coach says Jacobs Engine Brake (compression brake).

Manual talks about an Engine Brake - Lo Setting 3 Cylinders, Hi Setting 6 Cylinders

Looking at the exhaust piping from the Turbo Charger to the Muffler - Nothing

Talking with CumminsCare and giving my engine serial number, they confirm I have a compression (engine) brake system as the manual describes.

 

So I have a engine/compression/Jake brake system.  I will be removing the PAC Brake placard!!

 

 

That makes sense.  If you have the UPGRADED Cummins Engine with the Different Intake.  I don't know about how the Windsors were "speced out", but I do know that good OLD Monaco would do weird things. I was looking at my 2009 Camelot versus a 2009 Scepter. This was close to when Monaco was failing. The Camelot was in stock at CW as they bought all of Monaco's or the most of the coaches on the grassed storage lots.  They got a DEAL and I saved quite a bit also.  The
Scepter was actually slated to go or maybe was on the Assembly line. The MSRP or price list had the following...

1) ENGINE - ISL 425 WITH TWO STAGE ENGINE

2,130.00

Not knowing a Jacobs or Exhaust Brake from a hand brake, I called Cummins and the tech explained that all Cummins engines had the VGT exhaust brake, but this engine had an additional or upgraded braking system. The tech wisely asked me where I would be driving and such and said that I would be OK, as long as I took it easy when I might travel out west or in the Appalachain mountains or such...I chose the Camelot for a lot of other features and color and interior option.  NOTE....that unit never made it off the floor and was rebadged as a 2010 by Navistar.  LUCK is better than SMARTS.

Therefore, contact Cummins. You SHOULD have a "switch" somewhere for the two stages.  I know NOT WHERE, but this engine was the EXACT same as what Monaco used on the standard Dynasties....but the Dynasties came with the 2 stage Jake Brake.  Guess what, they had more Dynasty Engines laying around or ran out of the stock Camelot ISL 425.  The Compression Brake was NOT an option on any Monaco build sheet per my dealer....so it was just "Monaco being Monaco..."

Verify your Engine SN....and then call.  If you have the SWITCH or the 2 positions....then you got the real McCoy....otherwise....I would wonder.  Hope this helps...

[96 EVO]

On 7/12/2022 at 4:41 PM, Frank McElroy said:

 

A service tech really needs to know what they are doing when they remove, reinstall and calibrate an electronic turbo actuator.  That's why Cummins stopped selling the turbo and actuator separately.  From Cumming they are only available as a complete assembly.  You can find them in the after market as separate units.

Yeah, that, and rather than making a few hundred dollars, they can make a few thousand dollars !!

[Frank McElroy]

2 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Yeah, that, and rather than making a few hundred dollars, they can make a few thousand dollars !!

Yep, now you know why I've been doing my own repair and maintenance on all my vehicles since my teens.  Repair costs have way more than paid for any specialized tools I've needed.  Millions of miles later and still haven't needed a tow.  So far, always managed to make it home.

[BradHend]

So the Cummins shop is saying I will need a new turbo in the near future. It showed 1 actuator position fault 20 drive hours ago.  They claim the testing they did is showing the vanes of the VGT turbo are not opening and closing fully.  Gets to about 7% closed, 94% open. They don’t believe it’s the actuator, but rather the turbo vane linkage. 
It still builds up boost pressure, about 28psi when accelerating and as far as I can tell it is working to slow me down - it’s not just the transmission downshifting when I utilize the exhaust brake.  It blows a little black smoke when accelerating and has a slight surging sound in the exhaust at idle.  
I’m not 100% convinced I need a new turbo yet however.  
They say they can’t get one in for a few weeks and I’m supposed to be heading to the east coast of Canada on Saturday in it.   I asked for their honest opinion…what harm would I do if I went as is.  They said they obviously can’t make any guarantees, but said it shouldn’t be a problem and won’t cause any harm to the engine.  They quoted me a refurb turbo from Cummins, just the part for 6.5K. 😬

I’ve ordered some fuel treatment that is supposed to assist with cleaning the turbo, as well as an aerosol to spray in the intake.  These items were suggested to try/use while operating at highway speeds by the Cummins mechanic.

Am I crazy taking this thing out east?   Round trip it’s about a 3600 Km tour. 
Thanks for your opinions. 

[Ivan K]

I don't know about the warranty from Cummins and if it is worth the price but owning a truck with Cummins 6.7 and probably very similar VGT turbo, I would look for a different source or a rebuild. I don't have a problem with my truck yet, but when I will, I'll do a manual cleaning with it out, if bearings check out. Many did the same. Just have to keep the actuator position in sync. From what I read, cleaners that went through combustion do exactly nothing but some turbos have a clean out port on them. If you look at some diesel RAM forums, you'll see that you are far from alone. You can try other diesel shop, yours is a popular engine in pickups and you are not limited to that one dealer. I might consider carrying a cheaper rebuilt if I had no time to replace. Mobile mechanic can do it on side of the road in worst case. Good luck!

[96 EVO]

Brad, I don't know how accurate this info I just recently read, but supposedly an idleing Cummins with VGT will close the vane ring to 10%, so if yours is closing to 7% with the brake active, your getting very little braking.