2001 Dynasty Starting Issues - Rear run bay issues?

[gjh2916]

EDITED

This post concerns erratic starting issues and requests assistance in identifying components and understanding the RRB to determine the cause. Therefore the title has been revised so that others can assist or search for similar problems in the future.  

In the rear run bay on passenger side the green box has a green light on it. When it is not lit my coach will not start. Free disconnecting the batteries and waiting a little while then connecting batteries back the green light comes on and motor home will start. This has happened more than three times this year. 

This is a 2001 Monaco Dynasty with 8.3 Cummins CAPS engine

Edited August 27, 2022 by Tom Cherry
Clarity of the problem

[waterskier_1]

That Green Box is a Lambert battery maintainer.  They are obsolete now.  Its purpose is to charge the chassis battery when connected to shore power.  Most have failed by now.  You can replace it with a standard battery maintainer plugged into the block heater outlet, or get a Amp-L-Start or equivalent which will maintain the chassis battery anytime the house battery is being charged, including by solar.

  -Rick N.

[Dr4Film]

That green device is your Lambert Battery Maintainer.

I have attached two documents I have that will help you with determining whether it is functioning correctly or not. Mine failed in the Windsor back in 2017.

They are now obsolete and no longer available. However, a good replacement is the AMP-L-Start device.

LAMBERT Battery Maintainer LE-415.pdf LAMBERT Battey Maintainer.doc

[Rocketman3]

Assuming your battery maintainer is working when the green light is on…

Your chassis battery may be about wore out. Have you tested the “boost” switch recently? That can also put power back into the chassis battery to help start the rig. 
 

Good Luck

[jacwjames]

22 minutes ago, Rocketman3 said:

Assuming your battery maintainer is working when the green light is on…

Your chassis battery may be about wore out. Have you tested the “boost” switch recently? That can also put power back into the chassis battery to help start the rig. 
 

Good Luck

X2,  I would test both battery banks. 

The Lambert 415 is designed to maintain you chassis battery when plugged into shore power and/or your house batteries while driving.  The light should come on when it is connecting both batteries.  Richard has posted the PDF's that show how to test.

My system was slightly different, I had a Lambert 415 maintainer, Bird, and isolation relay.  I started to suspect my Lambert as it start to click on/off at a quicker cycle, which it had not done previously.  I did test it and it showed it was good but my chassis batteries were not charging as I thought they should of.  So I bit the bullet and got rid of all of the above and installed a Bluesea ML-ACR which combines both battery banks when it senses a charge from shore/generator/alternator.  It was an easy swap in the rear run bay but I had to run an extra wire to the dash to install the switch in place of the auxiliary boost switch.  

This is near the top of my list of the modes I've done to my coach. 

 

[gjh2916]

The Engine will crank but it just won't fire

 

[gjh2916]

May be this Maintainer has nothing to do with the starting issue, but it's a coincidental that coach will not start with light out but will with light on.

[Dr4Film]

When the green light is out the Lambert Battery Maintainer has been shut off. When the green light is lit up it is working to maintain the charge on your chassis battery(s).

The only times your Lambert Battery Maintainer Green Light will be lit up is when you are on shore power or your generator is running. If neither of these two previous conditions exist then the green light will be off.

i believe you have some other condition that is failing that prevents the engine from firing up that is unrelated to your Lambert Battery Maintainer.

If your chassis battery(s) are fully charged, then your maintainer is doing its ONLY job.

I would pay strict attention to your situation/conditions when you notice the green light on and the coach starts up versus when the green light is off and the coach will not fire up.

Repost will more information.

 

[timaz996]

When your coach won't start, leave the key in the on position then go back and start the engine with your rear start switch. I'm still sporadically fighting the same problem. Mine will always start with the rear start switch.

Tim 

[ok-rver]

Tim,

Can you shed more light on a rear start switch. I have a 2004 HR Scepter with the 8.3 Cummins and I have never seen a switch at the rear that will crank the engine.

 

[96 EVO]

3 minutes ago, ok-rver said:

Tim,

Can you shed more light on a rear start switch. I have a 2004 HR Scepter with the 8.3 Cummins and I have never seen a switch at the rear that will crank the engine.

 

I don't have the engine compartment remote start switch either 😒!

[Dr4Film]

I guess the HR Scepter's didn't come with the engine compartment Start & Run switches.

The Dynasty should surely have one as does my previous Windsor.

They are Two Black Carlings Technology switches sitting side by side. One is a momentary Start/Run and the other is for Front/Off/Rear.

[waterskier_1]

My Green light was on, but it was not charging.  If you want to confirm charging, measure the voltage on the chassis - it will be over 13.4 volts if it is working.

  - Rick N.

[Dr4Film]

On 8/25/2022 at 8:34 PM, waterskier_1 said:

My Green light was on, but it was not charging.  If you want to confirm charging, measure the voltage on the chassis - it will be over 13.4 volts if it is working.

  - Rick N.

Your situation is exactly why one needs to step through the testing and troubleshooting steps to determine specifically what their problem is.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Dr4Film

[gjh2916]

7 hours ago, Tim-AZ said:

When your coach won't start, leave the key in the on position then go back and start the engine with your rear start switch. I'm still sporadically fighting the same problem. Mine will always start with the rear start switch.

Tim 

Tim I tried that it will not start from back there either

[timaz996]

I’m just guessing here but try flipping your front to rear switch in the back back-and-forth five or six times to make sure it has a good connection and then try starting it with the rear start switch and make sure you have the key on upfront. Happy cars or his name is actually Harry over on The irv2 is really good at sussing this out. There’s a thread over there under my name talking about this very item but I have yet to been able to go through all of his suggestions because I don’t have any help. I hope this helps you.

Tim

[gjh2916]

10 hours ago, Tim-AZ said:

I’m just guessing here but try flipping your front to rear switch in the back back-and-forth five or six times to make sure it has a good connection and then try starting it with the rear start switch and make sure you have the key on upfront. Happy cars or his name is actually Harry over on The irv2 is really good at sussing this out. There’s a thread over there under my name talking about this very item but I have yet to been able to go through all of his suggestions because I don’t have any help. I hope this helps you.

Tim

Tim I have tried to find the thread on IRV2 No luck. What was the heading topic?

[timaz996]

Here is the link Gary

 

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/isc-starting-problem-589852.html

[gjh2916]

1 hour ago, Tim-AZ said:

Here is the link Gary

 

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/isc-starting-problem-589852.html

Thank you Tim, no help my issue is engine cranks but will not start. I have a FASS fuel system and filters are new.

[timaz996]

Are you getting grey smoke when you crank? Does it seem to fire one or two cylinders when you crank it?

[gjh2916]

8 hours ago, Tim-AZ said:

Are you getting grey smoke when you crank? Does it seem to fire one or two cylinders when you crank it?

No smoke doesn't try to fire at all

[timaz996]

Gary look in your rear run bay on the passenger side where all the relays and 12 V circuit breakers are at. There’s one or two that are marked ignition. So I would check across those with the key on to make sure that you have continuity through them.

[jacwjames]

In my rear run bay (yours may be different) I have 3 fuse holders that contain 7 fuses.  Most of them for for the engine and protect the ECM and circuits.  I'd check all of these fuses. 

[Tom Cherry]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:15 PM, Dr4Film said:

Yoyr situation is exactly why one needs to step through the testing and troubleshooting steps to determine specifically what their problem is.

Gary,

First. I edited the title for clarity.  In the future, please state the problem or issue in the title.  See the comment.

Second.  I scrolled down and read the posts and have a suggest.....which is what Richard commented on.  The only way to resolve the problem is to read and understand what is going on.  The comments are very helpful. But, in the end, your trouble shooting and providing feedback is the best way.  Each of us has our own way of doing this. 

My suggestion would be this.  The Lambert Maintainer is a "interesting" device.  It was an early attempt to keep the Chassis batteries maintained before the electronics and the MH industry evolved and there was a BIRD system that worked. By 2008 or so, Monaco was using two kinds....one for the Camelot and down and the other for the Dynasty and up. The Bi-directional Isolator Relay Delay or B.I.R.D. ® is a core piece of DC Management Systems that includes both a coach and a chassis battery.  I copied the last sentence from Intellitec.

My explanation is for simplistic than technical. The Lambert was not a BIRD system. I prefer to call it a "Thief".  It robs or takes charging current from the HOUSE Bank (while on shore or Genny) and then syphons off a small amount....say 15 amps to keep the Chassis Bank charged.  YES....they fail. YES...there are cheaper ones that replace it like the "Ampl-Start", but in the end....they depend upon circuitry to work. The issue is that if there was a SOLID connection between the batteries or they were JUMPERED at all times........and the House ran down, you would not be able to crank the engine. The Battery Boost system, which is NOT part of the Lambert, is designed to be able to "CONNECT" them.  Read your manual. This is NOT a "starting solenoid".  You hold the boost switch in for the specified number of cycles and times and you put a surface charge on the Chassis bank by "robbing" or taking away power from the House.  Thus, when the Chassis batteries are LOW....you MIGHT be able to start. That Solenoid only carries or is rated for maybe 200 A and you need or use 1200 amps when you crank. If the Chassis was dead....then you would totally (OK....maybe not the first time) arc or burn up the contacts.  

Reading all the comments....my advice would be.  Disconnect the Lambert from the system.  Use you picture as a "how it used to be" and pull the upper and lower cables off and remove the center one and tape over to prevent arcing.

Now. Use a single Jumper cable and put it between the Positives on the House and Chassis.  That is actually "Jumpering" them. If it starts OK....then disconnect the Jumper.  If NOT, then, as folks have suggested, you have an ignition issue and NOT a charging issue. When you are driving, remove the Jumper....but keep it handy.  When the MH is plugged in and the Inverter/Charger is charging the House, put the Jumper back on.  Therefore you are charging BOTH banks.  BEFORE you start the MH, when you break camp.  Disconnect the Jumper and remove it.  If it starts OK, then you PROBABLY do have a weak Chassis bank.  EDIT….  The Lambert was designed NOT, hopefully, to run down the House.  Use the Jumper ONLY in storage IF, you have power.  It is critical that you understand this…and know the difference between the “Thief” system and a BIRD….   

My "rule of thumb" on the Chassis...and I do have a well documented and reliable BIRD system is in the summer, I stop on a side street in my neighborhood and disconnect the TOAD.  Then I let the MH sit for maybe 15 minutes. That lets the engine "SOAK" and it really gets hot.  Not unusual....you do this when you go to storage. I crank it.  IF there is a slight hesitation or NOTHING HAPPENS....or I turn the key....and there seems like an eternity, but then it fires...the Chassis is getting weak and I plan on replacing. I do not worry as I COULD use a Jumper.  But that is a sign....and the age also kicks in. I DID have a chassis battery go dead in storage once....and it was from a bad "Battery Boost" solenoid.  In my system, that is also the "slave" from my BIRD system to keep both banks charged. When it failed, there was no charging current going to the Chassis and it has been sitting for a long time. I popped on a Jumper and had the Genny running and BINGO....after 10 minutes....I tried it again.  SUCCESSS....but I was going on a trip....so I just replaced the 6 year old Chassis.

NOW....after all this....the purpose is to get you starting and cranking and ISOLATE the issue.  After THAT....it is recommended that you look in to the Blue Seas ACR.

https://www.bluesea.com/support/articles/Charging_and_Charge_Management/1366/Automatic_Charging_Relay_[ACR]_Explained

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7620/ML-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12V_DC_500A

This will solve the issue and you will have a fully functional and reliable BIRD system. This is the CHEAPEST way to go.  It is more expensive to install my Intellitec BIRD system than this one. If I lose the BRAIN for mine, I will probably do this.  but it is the ideal fix for an older one.

@vanwill52 Is our resident expert on this. He has written several posts on it and explained it.  If you can't find them, then PM him and he can direct you to them.  

Good Luck....  as Richard says....Trouble SHOOT.  But take out the Lambert and use my suggestion to remove the Lambert....and actually provide, for the interim a BIRD solution....simplistic, but it works....then figure out HOW to keep both banks charged....and the ML-ACR would be my pick.

Thanks,

[gjh2916]

15 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Gary,

First. I edited the title for clarity.  In the future, please state the problem or issue in the title.  See the comment.

Second.  I scrolled down and read the posts and have a suggest.....which is what Richard commented on.  The only way to resolve the problem is to read and understand what is going on.  The comments are very helpful. But, in the end, your trouble shooting and providing feedback is the best way.  Each of us has our own way of doing this. 

My suggestion would be this.  The Lambert Maintainer is a "interesting" device.  It was an early attempt to keep the Chassis batteries maintained before the electronics and the MH industry evolved and there was a BIRD system that worked. By 2008 or so, Monaco was using two kinds....one for the Camelot and down and the other for the Dynasty and up. The Bi-directional Isolator Relay Delay or B.I.R.D. ® is a core piece of DC Management Systems that includes both a coach and a chassis battery.  I copied the last sentence from Intellitec.

My explanation is for simplistic than technical. The Lambert was not a BIRD system. I prefer to call it a "Thief".  It robs or takes charging current from the HOUSE Bank (while on shore or Genny) and then syphons off a small amount....say 15 amps to keep the Chassis Bank charged.  YES....they fail. YES...there are cheaper ones that replace it like the "Ampl-Start", but in the end....they depend upon circuitry to work. The issue is that if there was a SOLID connection between the batteries or they were JUMPERED at all times........and the House ran down, you would not be able to crank the engine. The Battery Boost system, which is NOT part of the Lambert, is designed to be able to "CONNECT" them.  Read your manual. This is NOT a "starting solenoid".  You hold the boost switch in for the specified number of cycles and times and you put a surface charge on the Chassis bank by "robbing" or taking away power from the House.  Thus, when the Chassis batteries are LOW....you MIGHT be able to start. That Solenoid only carries or is rated for maybe 200 A and you need or use 1200 amps when you crank. If the Chassis was dead....then you would totally (OK....maybe not the first time) arc or burn up the contacts.  

Reading all the comments....my advice would be.  Disconnect the Lambert from the system.  Use you picture as a "how it used to be" and pull the upper and lower cables off and remove the center one and tape over to prevent arcing.

Now. Use a single Jumper cable and put it between the Positives on the House and Chassis.  That is actually "Jumpering" them. If it starts OK....then disconnect the Jumper.  If NOT, then, as folks have suggested, you have an ignition issue and NOT a charging issue. When you are driving, remove the Jumper....but keep it handy.  When the MH is plugged in and the Inverter/Charger is charging the House, put the Jumper back on.  Therefore you are charging BOTH banks.  BEFORE you start the MH, when you break camp.  Disconnect the Jumper and remove it.  If it starts OK, then you PROBABLY do have a weak Chassis bank.  EDIT….  The Lambert was designed NOT, hopefully, to run down the House.  Use the Jumper ONLY in storage IF, you have power.  It is critical that you understand this…and know the difference between the “Thief” system and a BIRD….   

My "rule of thumb" on the Chassis...and I do have a well documented and reliable BIRD system is in the summer, I stop on a side street in my neighborhood and disconnect the TOAD.  Then I let the MH sit for maybe 15 minutes. That lets the engine "SOAK" and it really gets hot.  Not unusual....you do this when you go to storage. I crank it.  IF there is a slight hesitation or NOTHING HAPPENS....or I turn the key....and there seems like an eternity, but then it fires...the Chassis is getting weak and I plan on replacing. I do not worry as I COULD use a Jumper.  But that is a sign....and the age also kicks in. I DID have a chassis battery go dead in storage once....and it was from a bad "Battery Boost" solenoid.  In my system, that is also the "slave" from my BIRD system to keep both banks charged. When it failed, there was no charging current going to the Chassis and it has been sitting for a long time. I popped on a Jumper and had the Genny running and BINGO....after 10 minutes....I tried it again.  SUCCESSS....but I was going on a trip....so I just replaced the 6 year old Chassis.

NOW....after all this....the purpose is to get you starting and cranking and ISOLATE the issue.  After THAT....it is recommended that you look in to the Blue Seas ACR.

https://www.bluesea.com/support/articles/Charging_and_Charge_Management/1366/Automatic_Charging_Relay_[ACR]_Explained

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7620/ML-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12V_DC_500A

This will solve the issue and you will have a fully functional and reliable BIRD system. This is the CHEAPEST way to go.  It is more expensive to install my Intellitec BIRD system than this one. If I lose the BRAIN for mine, I will probably do this.  but it is the ideal fix for an older one.

@vanwill52 Is our resident expert on this. He has written several posts on it and explained it.  If you can't find them, then PM him and he can direct you to them.  

Good Luck....  as Richard says....Trouble SHOOT.  But take out the Lambert and use my suggestion to remove the Lambert....and actually provide, for the interim a BIRD solution....simplistic, but it works....then figure out HOW to keep both banks charged....and the ML-ACR would be my pick.

Thanks,

Thank you for the insight, I will work in that direction after the holidays