2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7L Hemi, problem and repair

[Frank McElroy]

2 hours ago, jacwjames said:

Well, I found the problem.  The #1 intake lifter is stuck.  No movement whats so ever.  Any way to free it up????🤬

Now have to decide if I want to dig deeper and try to fix myself or take it to someone who knows what they are doing.  I have never done a major repair like this.  I am an avid DYI'er but I really don't have a good place to do this work and may not have all the right tools.

What are the chances that the cam is good enough to just replace lifters???  If I could get it running I'd trade it in on another toad.  From what I've been reading the Hemi is pretty notorious for lifter problems, and I've got 150K miles on it. 

If a lifter doesn't move, the number one and only cause is a destroyed cam lobe.  If that's the case, you are in for some major engine work.

[jacwjames]

5 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

If a lifter doesn't move, the number one cause is a destroyed cam lobe.  If that's the case, you are in for some major engine work.

Definitely a possibility. 

My next door neighbor is letting a young mechanic work out of his garage.  He mostly does engine modifications (more power type stuff).  Always working on some go fast cars.  Seems to know his stuff. 

I stopped by and showed him the video I took of the lifters with the #1 not moving.   I asked him what the chances of the cam being good, he said better then 50/50 since the lifter is stuck fully out.  He said the lower portion could just be rolling over the came and going in/out of the upper portion.  Seems logical but won't know until I take the head off.  Not something I'm looking forward to but I gotta do what I gotta do. 

I am not an expert by any means, one of the reason I posted here is that I know there are some really knowledgeable people on the forum. 

I am not adverse to trying something new, the internet is good resource.  Besides, I have nothing better to do at the present time. 

[Ivan K]

Wow, certainly not the best outcome but at least you know where you stand now. Looking at your troubleshooting history, all the misfires were at cylinders with MDS that magically moved around from one to an other. That is a bit strange but would appear that the lifters just did not reliably lock when solenois deactivated, just like the #1 now is only holding the pushrod by the internal spring pressure. I don't know how you feel about removing heads, pulling the lifters and checking the lobes with a dial. The fact that the other MDS cylinders now somehow work again, gives a hope that the lobes are still (relatively?) good. The springs will still hold the roller and lobe in contact until some high RPM which would hammer them down. I had a RAM with 5.7 in the shop that got so bad that the push rod fell out of its seat and got tangled around, impossible to even remove without disassembly. I think it would have been 10 hours labor and the guy just decided to sell as is. The parts aren't that expensive, labor would be... decisions... Some would go for solid lifters and eliminating MDS, just don't know about trade in value after the mod. Would be a plus for me but not stock anymore plus the necessary PCM reprogramming. 

[jacwjames]

So this whole thing started in Oct when I was in UT.  Even then when trying to trouble shoot the codes kept changing, the mechanic out there even made that comment.  Now over the last +week the codes still kept changing.   The young mechanic I talked to said the Chrysler codes are elusive.  Nice to know now. 

I think I am going to pull the head and take a look at the cam and hope for the best.   I'll have to remove the air intake manifold but most of the work is done for that, and I know what's involved since I already had it off once.  I'll have to remove the steering pump and on the drivers side it looks like there is better access.  The young mechanic said I should try and leave the exhaust manifold on and just separate it above the converters. 

 

In my previous life working in the mines I was always hands on, not afraid to get dirty and/or help anyone that needed a helping hand.  Worked on pretty high tech equipment and was pretty good at.  At one point I was Manager of Technical Services overseeing Engineering/Planning, Geology, and Mobile and Electrical Maintenance.   So with a little resolve hopefully I can pull this off. 

So stand back and hold my beer😄

 

[Robert92867]

I've never owned a Chrysler product.  But I just spent 2 hours following the thread and references and I feel like I've learned a lot, and besides there was nothing good on Netflix tonight.  One thing I can't figure out, is the #1 valve stuck open or closed?

[jacwjames]

Good question, I don't know right now but will today or tomorrow. 

I've decided to pull the head off and see what the cam looks like.  If it is in decent shape I'll go back with new lifters.  If not I've have to think hard about what I do next.  Really not equipped to change a cam shaft. 

My wife ain't thrilled about me moving forward but I gotta to what I gotta do.

[Rikadoo]

morning James, so I just watched a you tube on lifter issue with these engines and it looks as though they have really soft camshafts. something to contemplate is that IF the lifter bearings are destroyed of course you will need to replace the cam and all the lifters. however what the person on the video DID NOT DO was to drop the oil pan to clean out any or all the broken bearing pieces, when repairing Ford trucks 6.0 and 6.4 engines is that those pieces get sucked up thru the oil pump screen and into the pump causing hate and discontent, which equates to $$$. im not trying to scare as much as I am trying to make you aware. before you start this adventure I would consider calling to see what a rebuilt engine cost so you know the worst case. here in ca were seeing many of our customers opting to do major repairs rather than to by a new vehicle mostly due to the cost of a new vehicle is outrageous.

[birdshill123]

I admire your ability to "keep on trucking". Too bad you do not get paid per view.

[jacwjames]

1 hour ago, Rikadoo said:

morning James, so I just watched a you tube on lifter issue with these engines and it looks as though they have really soft camshafts. something to contemplate is that IF the lifter bearings are destroyed of course you will need to replace the cam and all the lifters. however what the person on the video DID NOT DO was to drop the oil pan to clean out any or all the broken bearing pieces, when repairing Ford trucks 6.0 and 6.4 engines is that those pieces get sucked up thru the oil pump screen and into the pump causing hate and discontent, which equates to $$$. im not trying to scare as much as I am trying to make you aware. before you start this adventure I would consider calling to see what a rebuilt engine cost so you know the worst case. here in ca were seeing many of our customers opting to do major repairs rather than to by a new vehicle mostly due to the cost of a new vehicle is outrageous.

Rik,

I know what you are saying,  I've watched dozens of videos on the 5.7 Hemi lifter issue, most of the ones posted require cam replacement. 

Also understand about dropping oil pan and making sure to clean any contaminates from the pan. 

Back in ~1997 I bought my wife a new Ford Ranger.  Ended up having oil consumption issues due to the valve seal failure, which was pretty common.  Luckily it was under warranty.  I just assumed (and you know what that means) that when they did the repair they would have dropped the pan and checked the pickup tube/screen.  Low an behold about 6 months later, out of warranty, started having low oil pressure problems which turned into a big problem and rebuild required. 

So, depending on what everything looks like, if needed I'll drop the oil pan. 

1 hour ago, birdshill123 said:

I admire your ability to "keep on trucking". Too bad you do not get paid per view.

This next step will be a go or no go situation.  If it looks bad I may pack it up.  If its salvagable I keep moving forward.

I will Endeavor to Persevere. 

[Dads Dog House]

     James, I also have a 2005 Jeep GC with the 5.7 Hemi engine. Mine is a early build so I do not have the MDS lifters or solenoids. I know from some of the Jeep forums that several vendors sell cam kits that delete the MDS system and it problems. Hopefully you lifter has not turned 90 degrees and ground off the lifter lobe, that fills your oil system with a large amount of metal fillings.  Also check to see if you have a remote oil cooler, it will need to be replaced, cannot be flushed out entirely. Good Luck, hope it is a minor case of shellac builup.

[jacwjames]

3 hours ago, Dads Dog House said:

     James, I also have a 2005 Jeep GC with the 5.7 Hemi engine. Mine is a early build so I do not have the MDS lifters or solenoids. I know from some of the Jeep forums that several vendors sell cam kits that delete the MDS system and it problems. Hopefully you lifter has not turned 90 degrees and ground off the lifter lobe, that fills your oil system with a large amount of metal fillings.  Also check to see if you have a remote oil cooler, it will need to be replaced, cannot be flushed out entirely. Good Luck, hope it is a minor case of shellac builup.

I bought my Jeep at auction in 2010, got a good deal on it and it fit my needs.  To be honest I didn't even know it had MDS system, just found out when I started to troubleshoot.  So can't cry over spilled milk. 

One thing about a problem like this is that it gave me a chance to go buy a 1/4" stubby & 3/8" air ratchets. 

Didn't get the head off but getting close.  Getting to the exhaust is going to be a challenge, I saved that for tomorrow.  Going to have to jack the front end up, put some stands underneath and see if I can get to them.   

[Robert92867]

  Can't wait for the next installment... MDS LIFTER

 

 

[jacwjames]

Well, my goal today was to get the drivers side head off the engine.  No Joy

Getting to the 2 bolts that connect the exhaust manifold to the tail pipe is almost impossible.  After several different attempts I finally took a small air grinder with disc and was able to cut the outer most bolt in half, had to lay down across the top of the engine and do it by feel but got it done.  Then tried to get to the second one closest to the engine.  Finally was able to rig up multiple extension on an impact wrench and 15mm socket coming up from below.  Had to remove the plastic fender well on the drivers side which gave me access to the 2nd nut but impossible to be able to reach both at the same time.  I finally had my wife come to the garage and hold the wrench while I used the impact.  Got the nut about 1/2 way off and it pretty much locked up.  Called it quits and sprayed some oil on it. 

If it doesn't come loose tomorrow I'll have to look at doing something else.  May have to try a reciprocating saw with longer blade going in through the wheel well and try to cut it off. 

If there is a tool that would help please chime in.  

Rik, the picture you posted peaked my interest so I did a quick search and fount this article  https://10secondracing.com/blogs/exhaust/what-are-hemi-multi-displacement-system-mds-valves-how-do-they-work

The option of eliminating the MDS lifters is definitely something to consider. 

[Frank McElroy]

41 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Well, my goal today was to get the drivers side head off the engine.  No Joy

Getting to the 2 bolts that connect the exhaust manifold to the tail pipe is almost impossible.  After several different attempts I finally took a small air grinder with disc and was able to cut the outer most bolt in half, had to lay down across the top of the engine and do it by feel but got it done.  Then tried to get to the second one closest to the engine.  Finally was able to rig up multiple extension on an impact wrench and 15mm socket coming up from below.  Had to remove the plastic fender well on the drivers side which gave me access to the 2nd nut but impossible to be able to reach both at the same time.  I finally had my wife come to the garage and hold the wrench while I used the impact.  Got the nut about 1/2 way off and it pretty much locked up.  Called it quits and sprayed some oil on it. 

If it doesn't come loose tomorrow I'll have to look at doing something else.  May have to try a reciprocating saw with longer blade going in through the wheel well and try to cut it off. 

If there is a tool that would help please chime in.  

Rik, the picture you posted peaked my interest so I did a quick search and fount this article  https://10secondracing.com/blogs/exhaust/what-are-hemi-multi-displacement-system-mds-valves-how-do-they-work

The option of eliminating the MDS lifters is definitely something to consider. 

I'm looking back at your past posts and one thing dawned on me.  There was a time when the problem seemed to be fixed after you replaced all the MDS solenoids.  Then the problem came back.  Since cylinder 1 is part of the MDS system and won't work at all unless you have oil pressure feeding that lifter via the MDS solenoid, I'm wondering you you tried to just put in the solenoid bypass kit sold by Chrysler for the solenoid feeding the number one lifter.  That would force the number 1 lifter to work.  I'm thinking that you might have a wiring issue or something in the EMC that isn't activating that MDS valve to pressurize oil to the number 1 lifter.  What seems very strange is that the number 1 intake lifter is not moving at all but just a little while back you "fixed" that problem just by changing MDS solenoids.  Anyway, I think I'd give that a shot first.  If the camshaft is good, putting in the Solenoid bypass kit will pressurize the lifter and solve the problem.  But if if does fix the problem, you would likely need to bypass the remaining 3 MDS solenoid so the engine always runs on 8 cylinders.

I found this to be a pretty good video on what's entailed to change the camshaft along with a video he made to diagnose the problem.

 

[jacwjames]

9 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

I'm looking back at your past posts and one thing dawned on me.  There was a time when the problem seemed to be fixed after you replaced all the MDS solenoids.  Then the problem came back.  Since cylinder 1 is part of the MDS system and won't work at all unless you have oil pressure feeding that lifter via the MDS solenoid, I'm wondering you you tried to just put in the solenoid bypass kit sold by Chrysler for the solenoid feeding the number one lifter.  That would force the number 1 lifter to work.  I'm thinking that you might have a wiring issue or something in the EMC that isn't activating that MDS valve to pressurize oil to the number 1 lifter.  What seems very strange is that the number 1 intake lifter is not moving at all but just a little while back you "fixed" that problem just by changing MDS solenoids.  Anyway, I think I'd give that a shot first.  If the camshaft is good, putting in the Solenoid bypass kit will pressurize the lifter and solve the problem.  But if if does fix the problem, you would likely need to bypass the remaining 3 MDS solenoid so the engine always runs on 8 cylinders.

I found this to be a pretty good video on what's entailed to change the camshaft along with a video he made to diagnose the problem.

 

Thanks Frank. something to consider for sure.  There is a young mechanic working out of my neighbors garage and he said he does a lot of MDS deletes on Hemis.  They definitely have a problem with the MDS lifters failing. 

On a number of forums they talk about Class Action Lawsuit. 

My current need is to get the head off to take a look at the cam, decisions will be made after that happens. 

[Ivan K]

Pressurizing the lifter like what an activated solenoid or a proposed bypass plug would do, is what makes the lifter collapse with only spring pressure keeping it extended but not enough to open the valve. And that is what you appear to have now on cylinder one. Both intake an exhaust should act the same once the cycle is done. With no oil pressure on the pin, the lifter should lock again and act as a solid lifter but if the pin fails to return to lock for whatever reason, you get what you have. By removing MDS lifters, you still have to modify the PCM so it does not cut off fuel and spark.

[cbr046]

My daughter has a 2005 Ram truck with 5.7 Hemi and NO money . . . . is there a way to determine by VIN or mfr date if she has MDS lifters?  Maybe a read through the OBDII port?

- bob

[Frank McElroy]

All hemis in the 1500 built after 2006 have the MDS. The only exceptions to this is the mega cab which is a 2500 chassis and the non-mds HD engine.

To be 100% sure check the 8th digit of the vin. If it is D then no MDS. If it is 2 then her truck has MDS.

So, likely her 2005 truck doesn't have MDS, but check the vin to be sure.

[jacwjames]

26 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

My daughter has a 2005 Ram truck with 5.7 Hemi and NO money . . . . is there a way to determine by VIN or mfr date if she has MDS lifters?  Maybe a read through the OBDII port?

- bob

Take the VIN number and see if it can decipher and show MDS engine.  An early build date for that year may not be MDS

My owners manual actually has a section on the MDS option.  I have a cheap code reader, and once I started having problems it showed multiple misfires but nothing specific saying MDS.  A more expensive computer will show MDS somewhere within the program, it can be disabled but you also have to remove the MDS solenoids and plug those holes.,  Can be done fairly cheap, a good DYIE'r can change out the solenoids and replace with plugs but it will have to be disabled in the PCM.

[wamcneil]

Oh boy… what an adventure! I went through a similar exercise with a 2014 ram hemi last year at about 170k mi. Mine was a sized normal lifter. Not one of the MDS lifters.  No codes or running issues. Just a tapping that sounded a lot more like a rod bearing than something valve related.
It was hard enough working on that engine in a truck. I’m sure it’s a lot worse in the WK. 

I went ahead and pulled both heads and replaced all of the lifters. But I wish I had only replaced the one that failed.  
I hope the rest of the project goes well!

Cheers

Walter

[jacwjames]

So this morning I tried one more time to get the manfold/exhaust bolt out without luck.  Went to Lowes and bought an Oscillating tool with a 3 pack of general purpose blades which are labed to "cut nails".  I had my doubts at first but one I got a grove started that the blade stayed in I started making progress, went through all three blades but got the bolt cut.  

Then started working on removing the head.  First took the steering pump loose from the head.  I knew I'd loose some coolant so I drained what I could from the radiator.  Then took the rocker arms off and the lifter rods out.  Then took the small bolts out of the heat at the top, and the the larger ones out.  All takes time it was ~3 PM but I forged ahead and tried to lift the head off, NOPE.  At the back there was a small stud on the back of the head and a bracket that supported a return line for coolant, got the out and tried to move the head again, NOPE.  There was a stud front drivers side of the head that had a bracket for the oil dip stick tub, this took me 1/2 hour to get off because of access.   Finally was able to get the head out. 

I then took the lifter pack out, only removed the first one for now.  The lifters came out pretty easy.  Rollers all looked pretty good, see pictures.  The second lifter was the one that was stuck but it was still in tact. 

I then tried to take a picture of the 4 lifter lobes.  This is where I'd like some opinions.  Overall, considering I have 149K miles on the Jeep the cam looks pretty good.  Considering age and general condition I'm tempted to put new lifters in possibly deleting the MDS system, I can do this for ~$200

[wamcneil]

 I think the main failure mode of hemi cam is bad needle bearings on the cam rollers. That allows the body of the lifter to hit the cam and tear it up. Otherwise I don’t think cam wear is really a factor.
At 170k miles, all 16 of my lifter rollers were tight and smooth-running. 

[Ivan K]

If the lifter roller looks good and same as others, the cam would likely be good. Of course a dial caliper comparison would be best while rotating the cam. Does the lifter pin look locked in just like the one for exhaust and holds it solid while under pressure trying to compress it?

[Frank McElroy]

5 hours ago, jacwjames said:

So this morning I tried one more time to get the manfold/exhaust bolt out without luck.  Went to Lowes and bought an Oscillating tool with a 3 pack of general purpose blades which are labed to "cut nails".  I had my doubts at first but one I got a grove started that the blade stayed in I started making progress, went through all three blades but got the bolt cut.  

Then started working on removing the head.  First took the steering pump loose from the head.  I knew I'd loose some coolant so I drained what I could from the radiator.  Then took the rocker arms off and the lifter rods out.  Then took the small bolts out of the heat at the top, and the the larger ones out.  All takes time it was ~3 PM but I forged ahead and tried to lift the head off, NOPE.  At the back there was a small stud on the back of the head and a bracket that supported a return line for coolant, got the out and tried to move the head again, NOPE.  There was a stud front drivers side of the head that had a bracket for the oil dip stick tub, this took me 1/2 hour to get off because of access.   Finally was able to get the head out. 

I then took the lifter pack out, only removed the first one for now.  The lifters came out pretty easy.  Rollers all looked pretty good, see pictures.  The second lifter was the one that was stuck but it was still in tact. 

I then tried to take a picture of the 4 lifter lobes.  This is where I'd like some opinions.  Overall, considering I have 149K miles on the Jeep the cam looks pretty good.  Considering age and general condition I'm tempted to put new lifters in possibly deleting the MDS system, I can do this for ~$200

It's really hard to tell from the pictures if the cam is good but the lifter rollers sure looks OK. 

So why wasn't the intake lifter working on cylinder number one. 

Assuming you can see the cam lobe while cranking the engine, possibilities include broken springs internal to the intake lifter (there are 3 internal springs) a bad MDS solenoid or associated wiring or engine control module powering the MDS solenoid on cylinder number 1 preventing oil pressure from activating this lifter.

At this point it would good to sort out if you have failed internal lifter springs or internal lifter check valve or if it's a MDS solenoid or electrical issue powering the solenoid.  If an internal lifter springs/check valve failure, just replace it and problem solved.  If not, do the MDS delete to be able to sell it.

[jacwjames]

7 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

It's really hard to tell from the pictures if the cam is good but the lifter rollers sure looks OK. 

So why wasn't the intake lifter working on cylinder number one. 

Assuming you can see the cam lobe while cranking the engine, possibilities include broken springs internal to the intake lifter (there are 3 internal springs) a bad MDS solenoid or associated wiring or engine control module powering the MDS solenoid on cylinder number 1 preventing oil pressure from activating this lifter.

At this point it would good to sort out if you have failed internal lifter springs or internal lifter check valve or if it's a MDS solenoid or electrical issue powering the solenoid.  If an internal lifter springs/check valve failure, just replace it and problem solved.  If not, do the MDS delete to be able to sell it.

rank,

One of the two MDS lifters was bad, I attached a picture of it. 

Can't get a look at the cam easily, I'd have to stand on my head.  Based on the condition of the four lifter rollers I removed I'd think the cam would be OK.  Mot saying there isn't some wear with 149K on the engine but using the small camera I have it doesn't look too bad.  I showed the pictures to my neighbor and he said he'd go with new lifters. 

On 12/28/2023 at 6:14 PM, Ivan K said:

I had a RAM with 5.7 in the shop that got so bad that the push rod fell out of its seat and got tangled around, impossible to even remove without disassembly. I think it would have been 10 hours labor and the guy just decided to sell as is. The parts aren't that expensive, labor would be... decisions...

I guess in an ideal world I'd go the rest of the way into the engine but it would take much longer and although I'm pleased with my effort to date I am skeptical of my ability to go further into the engine.    I haven't tracked how many hours I've got into this so far after finding the stuck lifter but I know it's more then ten. 

There is minimal room, I'd say it would be much different if the engine was in a big truck, hell I can step into the engine compartment on my old Suburban and stand there working on it.   I see some of the work the young mechanic next door does and even having all the special tools its a struggle, but he charges $95/hour.   Based on that I will continue with my efforts.