Need for SURGE SUPPRESSION Discussion

[Steven P]

Last Sunday am I went to my coach where it's stored in a fully enclosed rental unit. I keep it plugged in to a 110v outlet to keep the batteries charged and the beer fridge cold.  I use a plug in surge protector. When I got there the Magnum remote was off and my batteries read 13.4V. The fridge was cold, but I had no power.  The surge protector had a fault of 166 volts so it shut off.  I'm thinking it had just happened.  I unhooked the coach and using my meter got 155V at the wall outlets of the unit. Checked an exterior one and it read 120v.  Rechecked mine and back to 122V.  Plugged back in and initially it was fine then shut off again after a few minutes due to 160v. See pic. The exterior plug was reading 100V at that time. See pic. The storage unit owner had an electrician look into and all he found was a breaker that was stuck open,  no loose neutrals.  He replaced that breaker and suggested the storage owner call the power company but my unit was at 122v and fine at that point.  Left the coach battery switches off and went back today.  All seems good so I left it plugged in to the charger w the switches off. 

However, a neighbor w a 2019 Tiffin showed up today to a dead coach. Chassis batteries of 4.6V and house at 11.4V. He has a 30a wall outlet w 122v reading at one terminal and none at the other.  He was NOT using a surge protector.  We found a live 110v outlet and plugged his coach in, this time to his small surge protector which showed power was good to the coach.  But, his coach was reading no incoming power at his panel. Checked breakers, charger, etc...and still nothing.  He's calling a tech to come out, hoping nothing got fried w that 166V if he got that. He said he's never had problems w the power here so he didn't think he needed the surge protector.  I'm thinking we never need them til we need them and who knows when that may be. Use your surge protection. 

[DavidL]

Something certainly sounds incorrectly wired in that storage area.  No way should there be over 120v from any outlet.  I can't believe an electrician (a real one) would say all is fine and dandy.

 

[Steve P]

@Steven P Thanks for this reminder... I have been a bit risk averse, worried more about my surge protector being stolen than low or high voltage.  Your description was the 2x4 I needed to realize a theft would be easier to resolve than having untold numbers of circuits and devices fried.  Next time the beast goes to storage, the surge protector will be inserted in between the shore power cord and the 50A to 30A conversion cord that also has a 30A to 110v 3-prong plug on the far end (to plug into the 110v/20A outlet).  Does that make sense?  I can chain the surge protector to the support beam!

[Dr4Film]

It amazes me of the number of RVer's who choose not to install an EMS protection system on their shore power cord.

I have no sympathy for them at all. In fact this very topic has been discussed on this forum for years upon years so its not like they have not been forewarned of the consequences.

Edited January 22 by Dr4Film

[Steven P]

27 minutes ago, DavidL said:

Something certainly sounds incorrectly wired in that storage area.  No way should there be over 120v from any outlet.  I can't believe an electrician (a real one) would say all is fine and dandy.

 

All I know is he looked and looked and tested all he could and it was all correct as far as he could tell at that time.  Keep in mind 24hr passed from when I was seeing 155 to 160v and when he came to check.  He couldn't recreate the issue.  And yes, I'm still concerned about it. 

@Steve P glad to help. 

@Dr4Film I agree.  He had the protector but chose not to use it.  Gorgeous coach.  He did admit he is pretty new to this and still learning. 

[Steve P]

Simplisafe is a great way to monitor for a power outage.  The app will notify you by text and/or  email.  Even if your surge protector cuts the power for only the time it takes to reset (after an instantaneous power fluctuation that resolves in the blink of an eye), you will still get the notice.   Simplisafe also has water alarms, smoke and CO detectors, door/window and glass break alarms, among many more... and cameras.  Very useful equipment and monitoring with a great app!

[Steven P]

@Steve P I'm guessing it requires wifi?  We dont have wifi on our coach. We just use our phones for a Hotspot when we travel.  If we get to traveling more, we will look into dedicated wifi.  I know @Scotty Hutto monitors his coach remotely using wifi. 

[Tom Cherry]

MY….OMG WHAT HAPPENED moment.  Opened a bay door, horizontal swing out.  It wea partially open as I was looking for something.  The gas strut eventually opened it to full.  But it bumped the 50A OEM Monaco shore plug.  Later on, it hit me.  NO AC.  The Inverter had switched over….milld day, so no AC’s in use.

The Progressive HW50C was OFF. NO readings.  I popped the cover….  Did the readings.  175 VAC on one leg from Line to Neutral.  OPPS….what is this,  I called Progressive and somehow, I talked directly to Tommy Fannelli…..the owner.  OPEN NEUTRAL.  Then, used the Genny tHe rest of the time, as needed.

Checked things out as well on Pedestal.  It was FINE.  Obviously in my MH.  Same deal at Home with my 50A service.  I checked all the connections and finally tore into the almost hidden JB where the Reel leads connect to the Cable going to the ATS.

OK….finally, I cut off the 50A plug. Stole a 50 A plug from my emergency generator cord…as I backfeed the house via the MH receptacle. Plug in the MH…. BINGO all is well.  Used VOM. NO CIRCUIT from White Stub to Neutral Pin.

That one little gas strut powered bump took out the factory crimped and molded connection.

Need I write more????  

[Steven P]

@Tom Cherry thanks for sharing.  Crazy story!  For a minute last week I wondered if it was something w my system.  After unplugging for the final time, I was still reading that 160v at the outlet w nothing plugged in. That was a good find for you!

[Dr4Film]

17 minutes ago, Steven P said:

@Dr4FilmI agree.  He had the protector but chose not to use it.  Gorgeous coach.  He did admit he is pretty new to this and still learning. 

That is even worse, having an EMS protection system to monitor the shore power and not use it.

Reminds me of the movie. Dumb and Dumber.

[jacwjames]

I went for year without using an EMS. 

We were at a campground in N MI that had problems, if it was hot and people kicked on their AC's our site voltage would drop.  We were parked for the long haul so to get by I bought a unit that would boost voltage, this got us by.

In 2014 we had a lightening strike on our house but the coach was plugged into a 120 volt outlet.  Found that it fried the Progressive EMS.  Got that fixed/replaced but as soon as I could I installed a Progressive surge protector. 

On our first trip after this we stayed at a COE campground, plugged in and found reversed neutral to ground.  Moved to a different site.  Then stopped at another place and had low voltage, the EMS would not pass power.  So in a  matter of a month we had two instances of problems.  Wonder how many times before this we had problems but didn't know it. 

[Steve P]

30 minutes ago, Steven P said:

@Steve P I'm guessing it requires wifi?  We dont have wifi on our coach. We just use our phones for a Hotspot when we travel.  If we get to traveling more, we will look into dedicated wifi.  I know @Scotty Hutto monitors his coach remotely using wifi. 

That's the great thing -- Simplisafe doesn't require wifi for any monitoring other than connecting a camera or cameras.  All the other monitoring devices connect to the base station which uses self-adapting over-the-air connectivity.  The details are on their website.  I can't say if it works on BLM land in the middle of a remote desert or national forest, but it works everywhere I have been.  You can even set the 911 response address to that of your campground address and campsite.

Don't leave home without it. 😀 

[6Wheels]

The most important take-away I got from this story is that Steven has a dedicated beer refrigerator.  

[Jetjockey]

I am assuming ems is referring to a surge protector of some type..  and not an energy management system as installed in many motor homes. I thought most motor homes had a surge protector built in. I believe mine does but will investigate further.

Edited January 22 by Jetjockey

[DennisZ]

Sounds like the storage unit lost a neutral wire on their incoming service, the voltage readings you are getting are very indicative of that. That needs to be addressed right away. I wouldn’t plug anything into that even with a protective device.

[Jetjockey]

On a fifth wheel I had a failed neutral took out microwave,entertainment center,central vacc and a couple other items. It happens two times over several years. Second time I had installed a surge protector but the fault happened in the 50 amp plug downstream from the protection. . I believe the loss of neutral cause those circuits to go to high voltage 240v. Sometimes I have to use a long drop cord to reach my cord real. I always get the surge protector as close to the cord reel plug as possible to protect from any failed connections downstream..

Edited January 22 by Jetjockey

[Martinvz]

A year ago we were on our site in the camp ground we are now at in FL. One day the HW50C EMS started tripping. None of the neighboring sites seemed to have an issue but the also didid not have an ems. I checked but could not find an equipment fault in the coach.
After complaining, the campground tech replaced the breaker at the post. The next day the EMS was tripping and resetting several times an hour. We again complained and the breaker was replaced again. We started to monitor the EMS display and found that the one leg was fine at 120v while the other leg would be 126v+ causing the EMS to shut down.
This happened when the tech was at the site again. On his recommendation, we were moved to a different  site kept for emergencies and we have not had any issues since then. That site was not occupied for some time. I do not have any knowledge of any repairs to the electrical equipment in the campground.

[Tom Cherry]

22 minutes ago, Jetjockey said:

I am assuming ems is referring to a surge protector of some type..  and not an energy management system as installed in many motor homes. I thought most motor homes had a surge protector built in. I believe mine does but will investigate further.

Yes, maybe NO.  There were 3 levels, memory, of ATS/Surge Protectors used in the “early” years.  Your was in the transition from “simple” wiring to advanced Intellitec boards in the front snd rear and the Intellitec MPX full blown CPU systems.

Here is a screen shot from the Dymasty brochure….your Imperial is a twin to it. Monaco typically had “preferred” options.  There were usually less than 5% without a package….some were special orders that “Scrouge” customers wanted or some dealers put together.  Don’t hold me to the percentages, but most of the units came with a “value” package….sold at a 40% discount.  One of the packages for the Dynasty/Imperial included a surge protector style ATS.

But there were 3 (again, memory) versions.  You need to pull the model number off the ATS.  Then do s search.  Then look at the “surge protection” specs.  The Joules and the reaction time is the main parameters.

Then look up the Progressive HW50C specs.  That became the defacto standard.  

As to your comments.  
You probably DO have one.  How good?  Check the specs against current or the most common Joules and reaction time today.

The ones used in the 2006 units were known to fail.  As in, the MOV’s would short out.  There was also a fuse and an idiot light.  We have had members that had to replace the MOV’s.  Not a daunting task, but you do have to disassemble and get to the PCB and remove the MOV’s and find the correct ones and replace.  Akin to the original issues with the first LED TV’s.  The power supplies failed.  You either removed the power supply or fixed it in place.  It was such a common problem that there were kits all over eBay with new capacitors. You will have to use solder removal wicking to get the eyelets clean so you can reinstall the new MOV.

The other issue was or is, more common now, the failure of the contactors.  Surgeguard or TRC quit making the series of ATS that integrated with the Aladdin systems so you lost all votage and current monitoring.  Many folks actually removed the Monaco ATS and peddled on ebay.  They replaced with the ESCO LPT50BRD and the Progressive HW50C.

Just be aware of how you repair the ATS and/or the MOV section.  There is a great writeup on how to replace the contactors  in the files

Also, verify if your model DOES have open Neutral protection.

As an aside, my recommendation is that one carry a spare Camco 50A male plug and a tube of Dow Corning #5 sealant,  I’d cut off the end of a connector the age of yours and put on the new end.  Use it for a month or so..open and retighten the terminals and then “POT” or fill the cavity with the Dow Corning and that is the equivalent of the OEM, except the connections are far superior.  DEFINITELY do that if using a plug in…regardless of whether there is a surge style downstream.
 

 

[Dr4Film]

@Martinvz is the 126V a typo error or is that value correct? The reason for my asking is the EMS-HW50C is set to trip off for high voltage at 133 VAC not the 126 VAC that you have posted.

I have been on sites with the voltage running around 126 VAC with no problems.

[Tom Cherry]

27 minutes ago, Martinvz said:

A year ago we were on our site in the camp ground we are now at in FL. One day the HW50C EMS started tripping. None of the neighboring sites seemed to have an issue but the also didid not have an ems. I checked but could not find an equipment fault in the coach.
After complaining, the campground tech replaced the breaker at the post. The next day the EMS was tripping and resetting several times an hour. We again complained and the breaker was replaced again. We started to monitor the EMS display and found that the one leg was fine at 120v while the other leg would be 126v+ causing the EMS to shut down.
This happened when the tech was at the site again. On his recommendation, we were moved to a different  site kept for emergencies and we have not had any issues since then. That site was not occupied for some time. I do not have any knowledge of any repairs to the electrical equipment in the campground.

Same deal at a nice KOA north of Memphis, in Arkansas.  The Progressive showed low voltage.  NO ONE ELSE IS COMPLAINING….  Finally, we’ll move you to the new section. Them there new ones like yours ain’t wired right.  We get lots of compalints and have to move the bigger ones….nobody else with a “normal” rig ever has issues.

Now TRY to explain an open neutral or a transformer imbalance to the Park Maintenance guy that just told you it ain’t in his warin’…..

[Martinvz]

Richard, the 126v is what I recall but it could have been higher. There was quite a voltage differential between the 2 legs on the power. 

[Donflem]

As most of you know I just replaced my ATS. I had a bad plug on my watch dog the technician said that might have caused the ATS to go out on me. I contacted Hughes to see if I could just buy a new plug or do I need anew one? I bought my watch dog before I had the motor home because of all the storytelling I read on here. I sent them a picture of the SN and the plug and they sent me a brand name 50A watch dog. Now that’s customer service they replaced it after 3 years. I have a question for you guys? I bought the read out gage for the new ATS so I can get the voltage readings because the new ATS does not communicate with the Aladdin. My question is since there’s a phone connection on the new gauge and on the ATS is there also a phone connector on the monitor for the Aladdin in the dash I could just unplug and plug into the gage so I don’t have to run a new cable?

Thanks in advance.Don

[Rico K 2005 Knight]

Spikes in the voltage like that sounds like there are problems with the transformer and the owner should have the electric company check it.

Good call on using the surge protector. 

[b_faster]

A bad neutral will do what Steve was experiencing initially.  120VAC is 1/2 of a 240 VAC with a center "neutral".  When this deteriorates, disconnects, etc, the 120 VAC legs unbalance and you will see higher than normal on one side and lower than normal on the other.  Never trust a circuit that you have seen this on, until someone fixes something. It's not going to be a breaker on "residential" service.  It will be a problem from the transformer.  

[Tom Cherry]

31 minutes ago, b_faster said:

A bad neutral will do what Steve was experiencing initially.  120VAC is 1/2 of a 240 VAC with a center "neutral".  When this deteriorates, disconnects, etc, the 120 VAC legs unbalance and you will see higher than normal on one side and lower than normal on the other.  Never trust a circuit that you have seen this on, until someone fixes something. It's not going to be a breaker on "residential" service.  It will be a problem from the transformer.  

As I understood most of the “Open Neutral” examples over the years, many…maybe even a majority were issues at the pedestal or in the errors or code violations at or in the CG distribution.  Most were poorly wired 50A receptacles where the Neutral was not properly connected.  Other examples were where the receptacles were corroded or worn so that the Neutral pin hole was “reamed or worn out”.  

The other ones, and I was the victim was a bad internal crimp of the Neutral wire to the Neutral terminal in the plug.  In addition, with the spring contacts on the reels like mine,,,,where the contacts “ride” over a ring….that will also often result in an open circuit. Folks that fulltime and pull out the cord to max on the MH and leave it there for months often will pit or erode the contacts and the “HOT” ring.  Most, that frequently pull in and out and do NOT always pull to full extension rarely have issues.

YES, there could be a transformer issue….  BUT….go BACK to how most high voltage (13,000 VAC) lines are run.  You have only 3 conductors.  The ground is always an EARTH.  Look at the lines or the wires.

You only get a neutral from a step down transformer.  YES, the power company can have a bad transformer or the incoming service can be improperly run.  That is why, and Rick, our tech code guy, might chime in and correct or embellish or provide more insight….  There is NO NEUTRAL on a high voltage feed.  Pad or pole mounted transformers, near or at the Point of Service are the “origination” point for a Neutral.  Then, code says….BOND THEM SUCKERS at the POS in the FIRST panel.  Believe me….an improper ground to neutral or an undersized “bond” will hurt or scare you to death.  We had a “GE GOLD MEDALLION” house in the mid 70’s.  That was the THING….use all the juice….if was free and readily available.  Our local provider, Duke Energy….not a slouch provider, followed all the GE specs.  Put all the breakers outside….had the incoming and meter in one box….and the breakers in a side by side with an interconnect.  OPPS…the GE panel had a piece of 18 Guage galvanized sheet metal “bonding strap”.  My wife got stray voltage when she was barefooted and had her hand on the PAINTED dryer cabinet and pushed the start.  She screamed….and finally, after tearing apart a new dryer and testing every switch and control, I relented…. Got out the county building inspector and the installation contractor and a Duke Rep.  These were down to earth folks.  They measured the voltage.  There was almost 120 VAC potential from the still curing concrete in the basement to the cabinet.  I had her hold a meter lead….one side to the dryer cabinet and the other in her hand.  She screamed when it hit about 75 VAC, and to this day, will NOT hold a meter lead and help me troubleshoot.

Bottom line….when there is a weak or NO Neutral (open), the AC on line 1 will backfeed and you get upwards of 175 VAC across the “neutral” and Hot on both sides of the line.  Of THAT, I am sure….as I tested and measured and it was exactly that way.

SO….my point….an open neutral IS DANGEROUS.  And it can be on “our side” of the 50A pedestal or in the Pedestal or at the main panel or “upstream”.  Only troubleshooting can isolate it….