2002 Sig - Lost all interior 12 VDC Lights. 120 VAC is OK - Now Watt?

[Gary Petersen]

This evening I am on shore power in our 2002 Sig utilizing the computer and all of a sudden, all of the ceiling, and interior perimeter puck lights go OFF.

I see that all appliances, and the 110 receptacles, are functioning as they should but, darn it is dark in here.   I checked the two house panels for a tripped  circuit breaker and all seems fine there. At this late hour, MDW is asleep so it makes marital sense for me to wait for the morning day-light hours to start my investigation. This situation has never happened before so, I am curious as to what has caused this?

So "Now What?"  I'm looking for your suggestions as to possible sources of the problem, and where should I start looking? 

Thanks

 

 

[Ivan K]

Your salesman switch by the door and if not that, one of your solenoids in the pass side engine room. All the light run on 12 V so the breakers are not it.

[Paul Busch]

I had something similar happen a couple years ago and in my main low voltage panel there were fuses blown for the switches. Also a couple times I have had to unplug the CPU and replay it back in to reset it.

I know there are better guys to help. That helped me👍

[Dr4Film]

You have a 12 VDC failure, nothing to do with any 120VAC System.

First place to look is what Ivan suggested, Battery Cutoff Switch at the entry door or the solenoid that switch controls.

[Tom Cherry]

6 hours ago, Gary Petersen said:

This evening I am on shore power in our 2002 Sig utilizing the computer and all of a sudden, all of the ceiling, and interior perimeter puck lights go OFF.

I see that all appliances, and the 110 receptacles, are functioning as they should but, darn it is dark in here.   I checked the two house panels for a tripped  circuit breaker and all seems fine there. At this late hour, MDW is asleep so it makes marital sense for me to wait for the morning day-light hours to start my investigation. This situation has never happened before so, I am curious as to what has caused this?

So "Now What?"  I'm looking for your suggestions as to possible sources of the problem, and where should I start looking? 

Thanks

 

 

Read your manual.  Section (8 probably) addresses the "Salesman's Switch"....as it is called here commonly. The manual calls it the Battery Cut Off switch.

Hopefully, you manual has prints. Attached is a 2003 Dynasty High Current Print. The Dynasty and up all shared common schematics. Only "upper end or custom" features were different, so the drawing for a Dynasty have (probably) those items that were standard on your Sig....just called on a few prints.

I attached the drawing for it...look in the right side. There are THREE solenoids.  I THINK these are Latching Solenoids. They are easy to identify. They have a 5 Amp fuse or maybe TWO, in the top of the housing. These are called LATCHING. 

The common problem is that someone inadvertently turns off the Battery Cut Off switch by the door.  If NO ONE WAS "messing" or in the area, then it is a problem with the Solenoid of the Fuse. There appear to be 3 Solenoids and this print does not have the resolution.  MY "GUT" says that the Solenoid in the LOWER RIGHT with the note about the Sig having 2 Boxes, is the Salesman's Solenoid. The OTHER two solenoids in the TOP, I THINK, are ignition TRIGGERED...as in when you start the Engine, they come on.

SO, using that logic and also looking at the print, there are many circuit breakers also in there. The main incoming power comes through the solenoid.  So, when it is ON, all is well. BUT, then the power is distributed via each solenoid.

The TYPICAL failure is for the contacts to eventually get hot and arc and then fail. MANY FOLKS have bypassed that solenoid as it is a PITA and serves NO REAL function. On the 2006 or so Dynasty, it DOES, sort of, serve a function....as in you can TURN IT OFF and reset the Intellitec MPX lighting and control system. YOU DO NOT HAVE THIS...so I would personally BYPASS it.

Try to turn ON and OFF the Battery Cut off switch at the door.  NO JOY...then check the fuses (there may be ONE or TWO....check or swap a new one in).  No JOY.

If you have a VOM, then measure across the Large Terminals to GROUND.  One should have POWER as that is your 12 VDC from the HOUSE.  The other should have power...as in the Solenoid is closed.  IF NO POWER to either, then you have an upstream issue such as NO BATTERY POWER or there is a problem with the House Cutoff Switch. If you DO have power on one side...then find a NAPA and buy a NAPA 781144...

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MPB781144

This just bolts to BOTH sides of the Solenoid and you are good to GO.  The OTHER fix, and it depends on the slack in the large cables.  Move ONE cable to the OTHER side....that also bypasses it.

Obviously do all this with the HOUSE CUT OFF SWITCH OFF.

That's the drill.  

Here are links to drawings that would be close if you don't have drawings in your manual...

That's it....

2003 Dynasty High Current Print.pdf

[Ivan K]

Our Sig has 2 salesman solenoids beside each other, triggered by the same purple ground wire from the switch and I'd suspect 02 would be similar. So either one of the two could have dropped if some 12v circuits from them still work.

[wamcneil]

Mine had two salesman solenoids. One latching solenoid that fed one branch of the loads, and also triggered an automotive solenoid for the other load branch. 
Maybe the regular solenoid failed?

If you replace(d) the halogen lights with LED, the remaining loads can be combined on the latching solenoid and just remove the normal solenoid. 
Cheers

Walter

[Gary Petersen]

My daylight update:

 

Later last night, I also found that the two T stats were dead so, we had no heat. We have been consistently using the Heat Pumps. (only needed at night here in Mesa)

 

This morning, being very anxious, I was really encouraged to already see four responses with suggestions.

In my simple brain; Thinking that no one was near the Battery Cut Out switch, that couldn't have been inadvertently tripped to the shut off power position.

This morning, after getting out the wiring diagrams manual, and recognizing my limited ability to understand the information, I decided to start with the suggested Salesman Switch,  just as the three above responses directed. Since last night I had not moved the Salesman to the 12V shut off position, I moved the Rocker to the shut off power position and  then returned the switch to allow 12V power to be delivered, and miraculously, the all power was restored! 

Thanks to you Three for your  sage "Cut Out" advice to solve my immediate problem. 

 

However, I am wondering what caused this shut down? Would it be the result of running three heat pumps, which overloaded some component?

Looking at RRB diagram below, is there a component there, that could be at issue?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[waterskier_1]

As others have mentioned, your coach has TWO Battery Cutoff (aka Salesman Switch Relays) as shown in RED on the markup drawing attached.  You can check the voltage on the two heavy cables attached to each of the relays to ground.  If it varies by more than 0.02 volts, you have bad contacts within the relay.  Each relay controls different 12 Volt components of the coach.  

Another thing to check are the Battery Disconnects shown in BLUE.  These are also problematic and the same voltage test described above can be performed on these switches also.

  -Rick N.

Casa Grande, AZ

2003 Dynasty High Current Print_rn.pdf

[Ivan K]

If you don't use the battery 'Cut-Out' switch, I would just eliminate the potential trouble. One of mine was getting intermittent and I just bypassed them both. The picture might help. It also dropped my parasitic draw to well below 1A.

[Dr4Film]

34 minutes ago, Gary Petersen said:

My daylight update:

Later last night, I also found that the two T stats were dead so, we had no heat. We have been consistently using the Heat Pumps. (only needed at night here in Mesa)

This morning, being very anxious, I was really encouraged to already see four responses with suggestions.

In my simple brain; Thinking that no one was near the Battery Cut Out switch, that couldn't have been inadvertently tripped to the shut off power position.

This morning, after getting out the wiring diagrams manual, and recognizing my limited ability to understand the information, I decided to start with the suggested Salesman Switch,  just as the three above responses directed. Since last night I had not moved the Salesman to the 12V shut off position, I moved the Rocker to the shut off power position and  then returned the switch to allow 12V power to be delivered, and miraculously, the all power was restored! 

Thanks to you Three for your  sage "Cut Out" advice to solve my immediate problem.

However, I am wondering what caused this shut down? Would it be the result of running three heat pumps, which overloaded some component?

Looking at RRB diagram below, is there a component there, that could be at issue?

You have an impending complete failure of the solenoid relay(s) that the Battery Cut Off Switch controls. If it were me,I would bypass that solenoid and be done with it, NOW, versus sometime during a cold, rainy, dark night when you really need the 12 VDC.

I did mine in my 02 Windsor after getting up during the night and found the toilet would not work. The solenoid was bypassed the very next morning and I never had any more issues ever again.

As the say'n goes, "pay me now or pay me later", your choice.

Edited February 17 by Dr4Film

[waterskier_1]

I agree with Richard.  But note that you will have to individually bypass both relays.  I would also disconnect the purple wire and tape it.  This only is the coil or signal wire, but there is no need to waste energy energizing the relays after they are bypassed.

  -Rick N.

Casa Grande, AZ

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Gary Petersen said:

My daylight update:

 

Later last night, I also found that the two T stats were dead so, we had no heat. We have been consistently using the Heat Pumps. (only needed at night here in Mesa)

 

This morning, being very anxious, I was really encouraged to already see four responses with suggestions.

In my simple brain; Thinking that no one was near the Battery Cut Out switch, that couldn't have been inadvertently tripped to the shut off power position.

This morning, after getting out the wiring diagrams manual, and recognizing my limited ability to understand the information, I decided to start with the suggested Salesman Switch,  just as the three above responses directed. Since last night I had not moved the Salesman to the 12V shut off position, I moved the Rocker to the shut off power position and  then returned the switch to allow 12V power to be delivered, and miraculously, the all power was restored! 

Thanks to you Three for your  sage "Cut Out" advice to solve my immediate problem. 

 

However, I am wondering what caused this shut down? Would it be the result of running three heat pumps, which overloaded some component?

Looking at RRB diagram below, is there a component there, that could be at issue?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have THREE or FOUR responses....hope they all read this as well.

OK....  FIRST IT IS BASIC MONACO 101 DC AND 101 AC. 

AND...this is frustrating I KNOW.

You have good advice and tech advice... BUT, if you are NOT experienced with the Salesman's switch and how it works and also what it covers....and what it will get rid of....A LOT TO UNDERSTAND>

I have dug into our prints...for the 2003.  Yours MAY NOT BE THE SAME>...but since you have prints...and I don't, I'm going to try to walk you through this.

The SIMPLE ANSWER... My suggest before.  GET RID OF THE SOLENOIDS BY BYPASSING OR MOVING THE CABLES.

You may or MAY not have a VOM....you did NOT indicate that.  SO, we are at somewhat of a crossroads...  

DO YOU HAVE INCOMING POWER or IS THERE A PROBLEM WITH THE CIRCUITS?

VERY HARD TO DETERMINE....

SO if you do NOT have a TEST LIGHT OR A VOM...then do this...

ASSUME you have a Jumper Cable.  TURN OFF BOTH BATTERY DISCONNECT SWITCHS (SEE you manual in sections 8 & 9... THEN hook up the Jumper Cable to BOTH Banks POSITIVES...or Jumper the Banks together....TURN BACK ON THE SWITCHES....Did THAT FIX IT?  IF SO....let us know...  IF SO...then you have a house battery issue.....and they batteries may be bad or the inverter is NOT charging.

OK...NO JOY and Jumpering did NOT FIX...Leave the Jumper on....temporarily....can pull it later.

THIS probably means that you have lost the INTERNAL DC POWER> Look at your manual on page 275  276....as well as 296.  BOTH will help you locate and understand what were talking about.  P276 has the House Fuse Box... It is "powered" by the Solenoid on the RIGHT in your print, Page 296 shows you WHERE they are located.

That means that you also LOST (KILLED) the DC power to the Thermostats.  The Thermostats are POWERED by 12 VDC power....no DC power...the thermostats are dead.  They have have ALL the AC power they could ever use...but ain't gonna RUN.

Next UP.  Rick (Waterskier) has marked up the print I provided.  That, as suspected, looks a little different from your print....but it is ESSENTIALLY...The SAME.

NEXT UP... and THIS IS, I THINK, YOUR PROBLEM...

The TWO Solenoids in the your drawing are NOT the newer style Salesman's Solenoids...that MOST are familiar with...  .

They are White Rogers CONTINUOUS DUTY.  What that means...if they or one loses POWER...then they SHUT OFF...THAT changes things a bit....

NOW> I just pulled the Dynasty Print.  Look at it.  IT IS IMPOSING.  You have the SAME print or one like it towards the end of your prints.  You want the BIG print that has the FOUR FUSE PANELS.  Look at the BIGGER ONE in the center.  It is what needs POWER....

Carefully look to the LEFT of it... There is a AT (as in at or located) STEP. That is the Battery CUTOFF Switch.  NOW look at the STEP SWITCH POWER SOLENOID.  That is the RIGHT one in your picture.  NOTICE a little bitty NOTE... Fusable LINK WIRE.  That is the FUSE....don't ask...BUT look at your drawing and compare.  If you have LOST that NO POWER.

Past that.... Unless you have a VOM and can chase circuits....it is gonna be tough and I am NOT going to go into how to use a VOM unless you advise that you DO have one and know exactly how to use it.  Please do NOT TAKE that as a PUT DOWN.  We get problems all the time and folks need to be able to use a VOM to fix

THE BEST FIX FOR YOU....  GO GO NAPA.  Buy the Jumpers.  OR if you can MOVE One or the OTHER big (the large cables) from ONE side of the Solenoid to the OTHER....do that.

That bypasses something that was too complex and NOT needed.  I won't write a thesis on that...just trust US.

NOW>>>  Remember the JUMPER... TURN OFF the switches..  REMOVE THE JUMPER>  Either USE the NAPA JUMPERS to connect the cables on each side or move one or the other so that BOTH CABLES....on each solenoid...don't MIX them are connection.

POWER UP....using your disconnects....FIXED?

IF NO...then there is a MAIN POWER ISSUE.

The FIX....TURN OFF the MAIN BATTERY DISCONNECTS and THEN JUMPER>  THAT SHOULD (WILL? MUST?) fix it.

You have "LOST" part of the Battery Disconnect switch circuit or a bad solenoid or you have weak House Batteries.

The above will fix it until you can get someone to help you...THAT's IT...

12V Domestc & Chassis System - 2003 Dynasty Prints.pdf

[Hancoman]

I had the same problem couple years ago, no power to dash fans ,step cover and power outlets in the dash. About 5 days into the trip the salesman switch was in accidentally turned off .  It took me a while to figure out what happened but when I turned it back on the things that previously had no power came to life. Fast forward the problem has occurred again  So I guess time to bypass.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Hancoman said:

I had the same problem couple years ago, no power to dash fans ,step cover and power outlets in the dash. About 5 days into the trip the salesman switch was in accidentally turned off .  It took me a while to figure out what happened but when I turned it back on the things that previously had no power came to life. Fast forward the problem has occurred again  So I guess time to bypass.

Your decision is easy, if you accept the logic that the Salesman’s switch was something that really served no purpose.  Now, some like the creature….and that is their prerogative.

The point is that newbies with later model (2005 or 06) Dynasty and up might think the same thing.  Their MH’s ate totally different and have different solenoids..LATCHING….not Continuous Service (Coils energized 100%) AND the practical and convenient “RESET” ability for their Intellitec MPX CPU lighting and control circuit system is the reason.  Since you have continuous ON relays and NO MPX, my opinion and a LOT of our electrical gurus is NOT to bypass the newer models.

If you cables have no slack, I posted the NAPA part is is widely used.

Good Luck.

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Your decision is easy, if you accept the logic that the Salesman’s switch was something that really served no purpose.  Now, some like the creature….and that is their prerogative.

The point is that newbies with later model (2005 or 06) Dynasty and up might think the same thing.  Their MH’s ate totally different and have different solenoids..LATCHING….not Continuous Service (Coils energized 100%) AND the practical and convenient “RESET” ability for their Intellitec MPX CPU lighting and control circuit system is the reason.  Since you have continuous ON relays and NO MPX, my opinion and a LOT of our electrical gurus is NOT to bypass the newer models.

If you cables have no slack, I posted the NAPA part is is widely used.

Good Luck.

Monaco incorporated Multiplex in the 2005 Signature.  Then in the 2006 Dynasty & Exec.  That is why I have a 2005 Exec.

  -Rick N 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, waterskier_1 said:

Monaco incorporated Multiplex in the 2005 Signature.  Then in the 2006 Dynasty & Exec.  That is why I have a 2005 Exec.

  -Rick N 

Thanks....  I know folks that also made or knew about that and made the same decision.

What is REALLY frustrating, is that we have a very good, high resolution scanned copy, from the Owner's manual...or maybe they put the owner's manual "page" in the CD of a 2005 Dynasty and it is a MPX system...through and through... 

However, the 2005 Executive drawing are TOTALLY Analog or devoid of the Intellitec internal MPX system.

I have been in and out of those prints more times than I care to remember.

I just scrolled again.  I can also, hopefully draw this conclusion...

The 05 Dynasty person that has the MPX also seems to have the more complex front and rear run bays with the plethora of the Proprietary Intellitec Chasssis boards. 

The Rear run boards in the Executive seem to be a "hybrid", but are not as complex as the 2005 NON MPX Executive prints.

If you have a CD copy of your schematics and it is the PLAIN or NON MPX, then please contact @Frank McElroy.. I wish we had CD copies of them.

NOTE TO @Frank McElroy

You might want to add a "usage" note to each set of prints. The 2005 Dynasty is a FULL MPX system...  and that was NOT supposed to be the case....

Also the 2005 Executive prints are ANALOG and NOT Intellitec MPX...

This would really keep me less confused. I WILL mark my drawing folders in my laptop and then will at least have TWO sets...

Thanks...

[Gary Petersen]

Our Status:    Wow, what a relief, Currently all systems are operational.   I do have a VOM,  and the Trojan 145's are 3 months old. It is Difficult to decipher  but the Delco Start batteries could be 2017'.

OK  Ivan's photo prompted me to open up the RRB.

I see the two Solenoids off to the right side. As I was pushing the wires aside to get a good photo of their terminals, my finger touched the metal  cases. Particularly the Solenoid farthest to the right was so hot that I can NOT keep skin contact.  Is that to be expected??  When I looked closely at my terminal photo on the lower right solenoid, I zoomed in to see the black cable coming over the top of the unit connected to a smaller terminal, I see that it looks like it is so  corroded, it is ready to separate and break connection. Visually, it looks to me that the Solenoids are likely the issue.  Regardless, I Do plan on replacing that corroded ring connector.

So, help me with my questions:

Would it make sense to just replace both Solenoids to a Fresh OEM status?

Tom addressed this but, I am still curious to understand; When does one Ever need, or use, the Battery Cut Out rocker switch?

What abilities are lost if a Jumper cable is used across the Solenoid?

Would both Solenoids require their own individual Jumper cable?

Lastly, I dream about the possible future installation of the Blue Seas ACR system. Would any of the above repairs interfere with that installation?

Thanks,

Gary 

[wamcneil]

4 hours ago, Gary Petersen said:

I see the two Solenoids off to the right side. As I was pushing the wires aside to get a …good photo of their terminals, my finger touched the metal  cases. Particularly the Solenoid farthest to the right was so hot that I can NOT keep skin contact.  Is that to be expected??  

Gary 

 

 

Yes. The coils in those continuous solenoids consume about 750ma each. They will be warm/hot. 
If you bypass the salesman switch you’ll want to disconnect the coils so they’re not continuously wasting battery power. 

[waterskier_1]

20 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Thanks....  I know folks that also made or knew about that and made the same decision.

What is REALLY frustrating, is that we have a very good, high resolution scanned copy, from the Owner's manual...or maybe they put the owner's manual "page" in the CD of a 2005 Dynasty and it is a MPX system...through and through... 

However, the 2005 Executive drawing are TOTALLY Analog or devoid of the Intellitec internal MPX system.

I have been in and out of those prints more times than I care to remember.

I just scrolled again.  I can also, hopefully draw this conclusion...

The 05 Dynasty person that has the MPX also seems to have the more complex front and rear run bays with the plethora of the Proprietary Intellitec Chasssis boards. 

The Rear run boards in the Executive seem to be a "hybrid", but are not as complex as the 2005 NON MPX Executive prints.

If you have a CD copy of your schematics and it is the PLAIN or NON MPX, then please contact @Frank McElroy.. I wish we had CD copies of them.

NOTE TO @Frank McElroy

You might want to add a "usage" note to each set of prints. The 2005 Dynasty is a FULL MPX system...  and that was NOT supposed to be the case....

Also the 2005 Executive prints are ANALOG and NOT Intellitec MPX...

This would really keep me less confused. I WILL mark my drawing folders in my laptop and then will at least have TWO sets...

Thanks...

Tom,

I have a PDF file of the Wiring Diagrams that was sent to me by Dave Pratt.  I am traveling right now and don't have the bandwidth to upload the 130 MB file.  I'll be home in a few months, and can send it off then.  I have the original printed copy of the Wiring Diagrams also.  But they are not as complete as I would like.  They don't cover the Detroit Diesel interface module, but again Dave Pratt was able to send me a wiring diagram that helped.  I don't think Monaco was complete in their distribution of the files.  A 2005 Dynasty with the Multiplex system is news to me.  I did through (I thought) research and what I found was that they brought out the Multiplex system for only the Sig in 2005, then the Dynasty and Exec got it in 2006.  I wonder if the files are mislabeled?  And then there is always the question of when a model year begins and ends.  

If you need the PDF soon, you might have Frank ping Dave for it.  I'm pretty sure he's kept all his file on his 2005 Exec even though he sold it.

  -Rick N.

Casa Grande, AZ

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Tom,

I have a PDF file of the Wiring Diagrams that was sent to me by Dave Pratt.  I am traveling right now and don't have the bandwidth to upload the 130 MB file.  I'll be home in a few months, and can send it off then.  I have the original printed copy of the Wiring Diagrams also.  But they are not as complete as I would like.  They don't cover the Detroit Diesel interface module, but again Dave Pratt was able to send me a wiring diagram that helped.  I don't think Monaco was complete in their distribution of the files.  A 2005 Dynasty with the Multiplex system is news to me.  I did through (I thought) research and what I found was that they brought out the Multiplex system for only the Sig in 2005, then the Dynasty and Exec got it in 2006.  I wonder if the files are mislabeled?  And then there is always the question of when a model year begins and ends.  

If you need the PDF soon, you might have Frank ping Dave for it.  I'm pretty sure he's kept all his file on his 2005 Exec even though he sold it.

  -Rick N.

Casa Grande, AZ

I SUSPECT we have that in the files.  When you get s moment or later on, not a rush, do a search for the 2005 Executive Wiring.  There are a few prints that have some “notes” on them.  

Frank is looking into providing a description or label to make sure folks understand that during the transition “years”, that one needs to KNOW if they have the older or the newer (MPX).

So..when you get a chance….but don’t make it a drop dead priority..

Thank#.

[Frank McElroy]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:05 PM, Tom Cherry said:

Thanks....  I know folks that also made or knew about that and made the same decision.

What is REALLY frustrating, is that we have a very good, high resolution scanned copy, from the Owner's manual...or maybe they put the owner's manual "page" in the CD of a 2005 Dynasty and it is a MPX system...through and through... 

However, the 2005 Executive drawing are TOTALLY Analog or devoid of the Intellitec internal MPX system.

I have been in and out of those prints more times than I care to remember.

I just scrolled again.  I can also, hopefully draw this conclusion...

The 05 Dynasty person that has the MPX also seems to have the more complex front and rear run bays with the plethora of the Proprietary Intellitec Chasssis boards. 

The Rear run boards in the Executive seem to be a "hybrid", but are not as complex as the 2005 NON MPX Executive prints.

If you have a CD copy of your schematics and it is the PLAIN or NON MPX, then please contact @Frank McElroy.. I wish we had CD copies of them.

NOTE TO @Frank McElroy

You might want to add a "usage" note to each set of prints. The 2005 Dynasty is a FULL MPX system...  and that was NOT supposed to be the case....

Also the 2005 Executive prints are ANALOG and NOT Intellitec MPX...

This would really keep me less confused. I WILL mark my drawing folders in my laptop and then will at least have TWO sets...

Thanks...

2005 was a transition year where Monaco started to replace conventional house lighting switches with an Intellitec multiplex lighting system and electronic keypad switch modules.  As it turns out, the wiring diagrams for the 2005 Executive were for early production models with a conventional switch house lighting system.  The wiring diagrams for the 2005 Dynasty were for the late production models with the Intellitec multiplex lighting system and the electronic keypad switch modules.  Signature, Executive, and Dynasty models basically share the same wiring diagrams.

The Downloads file titles and descriptions now show the distinction between conventional and multiplex house lighting systems.